SDA Question

deu58 said:

Hi cliff



Well for one when death and sin entered the creation it means that it enetered ALL of creation, As in the universe, Not just the earth, Planets suns solar systems and even entire galaxies are born and die every day,

yours in Christ
deu 58

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Let's for the time being we say you are right.

Have you ever thought that through to its logical ending?

You have mutitudes in outer space that are infested with sin and sorrow.

Where there is sin there is death.

With Christ's on the cross, does that mean He died for them as well.

If that is so then Jesus died on a different planet than what they are on.

I doubt if you have thought this one through at all.

Cliff2 said:

Let's for the time being we say you are right.

Have you ever thought that through to its logical ending?

You have mutitudes in outer space that are infested with sin and sorrow.

Where there is sin there is death.

With Christ's on the cross, does that mean He died for them as well.

If that is so then Jesus died on a different planet than what they are on.

I doubt if you have thought this one through at all.

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What does scripture say on the matter? I already posted the reference, it says ALL of creation. Either your prophet is wrong or scripture is wrong and it's time for you to choose one. Which is it your prophet or scripture?

flesh99 said:

What does scripture say on the matter? I already posted the reference, it says ALL of creation. Either your prophet is wrong or scripture is wrong and it's time for you to choose one. Which is it your prophet or scripture?

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We just need to get a bit deeper into this

Are you saying that the rest of the being in the universe have sinned as well as the ones on this earth.

Cliff2 said:

We just need to get a bit deeper into this

Are you saying that the rest of the being in the universe have sinned as well as the ones on this earth.

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There is no deeper, scripture says all of creation and EGW says something different. Either scripture is wrong or EGW is wrong now which is it?

flesh99 said:

There is no deeper, scripture says all of creation and EGW says something different. Either scripture is wrong or EGW is wrong now which is it?

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Scripture is not wrong, never will be and never has been.

What is wrong is your interpretation of Scripture that is wrong.

You have in the Bible 146 times the word Sabbath mentioned

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

Out of that 146 we have the word Sabbath mentioned 52 times in the New Testament. Out of that 52 we have one verse that you are going to hang a whole doctrine on, a whole belief system on one text that does not even say the Sabbath has been changed.

If you would look at all the texts in the New Testament on the Sabbath you would not find one of tghem supporting Sunday as God's new holy day.

We start off in Matthew

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&startnumber=76

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&startnumber=76&startnumber=101

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&startnumber=76&startnumber=101&startnumber=126

The last text is Col 2:16.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Even if we were to accept what is said here, I do not see how you can come up with the conclusion that the Sabbath has been done away with.

"Verse 16

[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Therefore — Seeing these things are so.

Let none judge you — That is, regard none who judge you.

In meat or drink — For not observing the ceremonial law in these or any other particulars. Or in respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths."

(http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.asp?ViewCommentary=Colossians+2&Version=WES)

The above is taken from John Wesley's notes.

Cliff2 said:

Scripture is not wrong, never will be and never has been.

"Verse 16

[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Therefore — Seeing these things are so.

Let none judge you — That is, regard none who judge you.

In meat or drink — For not observing the ceremonial law in these or any other particulars. Or in respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths."

(http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.asp?ViewCommentary=Colossians+2&Version=WES)

The above is taken from John Wesley's notes.

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Do you even read what you post??? the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths."

How many weekly Sabbaths are there and if you believe John Wesely then what are you doing here judging us and trying to cram your Jewish Sabbath down our throats???

yours in Christ
deu 58

deu58 said:

Do you even read what you post??? the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths."

How many weekly Sabbaths are there and if you believe John Wesely then what are you doing here judging us and trying to cram your Jewish Sabbath down our throats???

yours in Christ
deu 58

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There is a weekly Sabbath every 7 days.

That is what Wesley has said, he said it is Jewish.

I do not all believe it be only Jewish.

flesh99 said:

Lets see:

1. Sabbath keeping in cotradiction with scripture (as a requirement)
2. Food laws that contradict scripture (again as a requirement)

But wait you are right, SDAs do not even do those things according to scripture but rather according to a much lighter implementation laid out by EGW. So you are right there is no living like a Jew in Mosaic times invloved, only completely non-scriptural legalism.

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from what Ive seen of it so far

What I meant was that the REAL test of something is when it can withstand scruntiny from those who oppose it.

Taking the word of someone who is all for something without getting the ideas of those against it is one sure fire way to be duped.

deu58 said:

H Egghead



Actually I use the the greatest supporter of all, Ellen White herself, Every thing I use is directly from the writings themselves, It is true that some of the anti SDA Websites do a little minor tweaking on the writings,

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Cliff2 said:

Scripture is not wrong, never will be and never has been.

What is wrong is your interpretation of Scripture that is wrong.

You have in the Bible 146 times the word Sabbath mentioned

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

Out of that 146 we have the word Sabbath mentioned 52 times in the New Testament. Out of that 52 we have one verse that you are going to hang a whole doctrine on, a whole belief system on one text that does not even say the Sabbath has been changed.

If you would look at all the texts in the New Testament on the Sabbath you would not find one of tghem supporting Sunday as God's new holy day.

We start off in Matthew

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&startnumber=76

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&startnumber=76&startnumber=101

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=sabbath&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&startnumber=76&startnumber=101&startnumber=126

The last text is Col 2:16.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Even if we were to accept what is said here, I do not see how you can come up with the conclusion that the Sabbath has been done away with.

"Verse 16

[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Therefore — Seeing these things are so.

Let none judge you — That is, regard none who judge you.

In meat or drink — For not observing the ceremonial law in these or any other particulars. Or in respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths."

(http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.asp?ViewCommentary=Colossians+2&Version=WES)

The above is taken from John Wesley's notes.

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So we are not going to talk about the fact EGW contradicts scripture in the visions about the planets and are moving on the sabbath? Nice smokescreen there Cliff. EGW claimed there is a planet with inhabitants that have not sinned and have not been affected by sin, scripture says ALL of creation. Would it be possible for you to stick to the topic please? I am failing to see how all means anything but all. I mean that's not really a word that's up for interpretation is it? All either means all or scripture is wrong, if scripture is right then EGW is wrong. Lets stay on topic who is wrong EGW or scripture?

Hi Egghead,

Egghead said:

What I meant was that the REAL test of something is when it can withstand scruntiny from those who oppose it.

Taking the word of someone who is all for something without getting the ideas of those against it is one sure fire way to be duped.

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I agree, And I was not trying to be critical or sarcastic about your post, Here is why I say what I say though,

When I first met my wife she gave me a copy of the Great Controversy, I had been told she {EGW } only had a third grade education etc and I had never heard of her before so needless to say I was quite impressed with what I read,

I knew nothing at the time about the Saturday/ Sunday issue, Constantine or had any real knowledege about the Papacy Luther and reformation, Never heard of William Miller and the 1844 Great Disappointment etc so all the historical errors in the Great Controversy went right over my head.

Next was Patriarchs and Prophets, Patriarchs and Prophets starts With Genesis and ends at end of King Davids reign in Israel,

It is supposedly a bible commentary where God gave her in vision many many details not recorded in the Bible,

When I started to read P&P I went page by page using the bible, It was not very long at all before the truth stood out like a sore thumb, By not very long I mean in less than an hours worth of reading I knew the P&P was nothing but lies and decption, The entire book just fell apart under the scrutiny of Scripture

I went to the wife and told her hey you gotta take a look at this and she was very unhappy with me that I should say something negative about the great prophetess and even gave me a warning {Many Times} that God may punish me for saying something bad about His chosen vessle,

She began bringing in all kinds of different SDA's from pastors to who ever she thought could show me the light,

They were all like cliff here, Dance around or just ignore the real questions and try to blow smoke, My first questions were " You say this is the truth but it is full of errors," After attempting several explain it all away type statements then they would usually admit well yes there are some problems in the writings,

Then I would say you never told me there were any problems in the writings when you were trying to make me an SDA!!!

The usual response to that is the truth of the writings is more important than the errors of the writings, Then comes the "well, Ellen White never really did claim to be a prophet" Which is a flat lie, She actually claimed to be greater than the prophets of the Bible,


"Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?- Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; AND BECAUSE MY WORK INCLUDES MUCH MORE THAN THE WORD "PROPHET" SIGNIFIES."{ Review and Herald , July26, 1907}

"My commission embraces the work of a prophet ,but does not end there.
{Selected messages vol .1pg 36, 1906}

I actually have read some of the supporting peoples writings and gone to other sites that support Ellen White and it is all the same, Just some have a bigger brain than others and use bigger words,

But regardless of those for or against they are not the ones that convinced me of the errors in the writings, I discovered them all by myself in the Bible by doing my own study and my own investigating,

I use those other sources to discover questions that I have not asked but then I go and look it up for myself, I compare it all with the Ellen White writings and the bible,

There are major inconsistincies in the writings, She flip flops on issues like a fish out of water constantly, people like cliff say well that is because things were still being revealed to her, That might be acceptable if she were just another bible scholar but we are dealing with a woman who claimed to recieve divine visions from Heaven and these visions were leading people into error rather than truth,

None of her prophecies have come true, SDA's have to really stretch to get one to even come close to having been fulfilled, The few that appeared to have been real have been disproven by her own ex supporters who knew she actually had previous information given to her from human sources before hand,

yours in Christ
deu 58

I actually have read some of the supporting peoples writings and gone to other sites that support Ellen White and it is all the same, Just some have a bigger brain than others and use bigger words,

But regardless of those for or against they are not the ones that convinced me of the errors in the writings, I discovered them all by myself in the Bible by doing my own study and my own investigating,

I use those other sources to discover questions that I have not asked but then I go and look it up for myself, I compare it all with the Ellen White writings and the bible,

There are major inconsistincies in the writings, She flip flops on issues like a fish out of water constantly, people like cliff say well that is because things were still being revealed to her, That might be acceptable if she were just another bible scholar but we are dealing with a woman who claimed to recieve divine visions from Heaven and these visions were leading people into error rather than truth,

None of her prophecies have come true, SDA's have to really stretch to get one to even come close to having been fulfilled, The few that appeared to have been real have been disproven by her own ex supporters who knew she actually had previous information given to her from human sources before hand,

yours in Christ
deu 58

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Seeing that you make such outrageous claims it maybe best to say which of these prophecies you are talking about.

Cliff2 said:

Seeing that you make such outrageous claims it maybe best to say which of these prophecies you are talking about.

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There is already a vision up for discussion that you are avoiding. How about one at a time here Cliff. The vision of another planet untouched by sin when scripture says ALL of creation. Lets start there and we can go one at a time. EGW directly contradicts scripture here or is scripture wrong? No smokescreens trying to turn this into a sabbath discussion, not bringing up other visions/prophecies, just answer this question then we can all move on to the next one.

flesh99 said:

There is already a vision up for discussion that you are avoiding. How about one at a time here Cliff. The vision of another planet untouched by sin when scripture says ALL of creation. Lets start there and we can go one at a time. EGW directly contradicts scripture here or is scripture wrong? No smokescreens trying to turn this into a sabbath discussion, not bringing up other visions/prophecies, just answer this question then we can all move on to the next one.

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The creation is only talking of this earth that is stained with sin.

No other world has sin in it.

Wake up mate and get real for a change.

Cliff2 said:

The creation is only talking of this earth that is stained with sin.

No other world has sin in it.

Wake up mate and get real for a change.

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So ALL of creation, as creation says doesn't mean ALL? Wow please back this with scripture. It plainly says the WHOLE creation, not all of this creation, or just creation, but the WHOLE creation. There is a Greek word there, it's not added in:

pas:

each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

This is EVERYTHING God created. So you are saying scripture doesn't mean what is says? So scripture is wrong and EGW is right?

Cliff2 said:

Seeing that you make such outrageous claims it maybe best to say which of these prophecies you are talking about.

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Perhaps this needs to be turned around and you need to explain how ALL of something doesn't really include ALL of it. Just specific parts of the WHOLE ?????

flesh99 said:

So ALL of creation, as creation says doesn't mean ALL? Wow please back this with scripture. It plainly says the WHOLE creation, not all of this creation, or just creation, but the WHOLE creation. There is a Greek word there, it's not added in:

pas:

each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

This is EVERYTHING God created. So you are saying scripture doesn't mean what is says? So scripture is wrong and EGW is right?

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Just another case of making claims about something and then not backing it up. I still can't get used to it.

flesh99 said:

So ALL of creation, as creation says doesn't mean ALL? Wow please back this with scripture. It plainly says the WHOLE creation, not all of this creation, or just creation, but the WHOLE creation. There is a Greek word there, it's not added in:

pas:

each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

This is EVERYTHING God created. So you are saying scripture doesn't mean what is says? So scripture is wrong and EGW is right?

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Just tell me in plain simple English, are you saying that other worlds that God has created have sinned as well?

Cliff2 said:

Just tell me in plain simple English, are you saying that other worlds that God has created have sinned as well?

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they didnt need to.
ALL of creation groans because of Adams sin.

Egghead said:

they didnt need to.
ALL of creation groans because of Adams sin.

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They did not sin but are groaning.

So why is that?

I will add here that I am sure they are not happy when they see what is going on here but that does not mean that they have sinned.