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We all claim that Satan is the scapegoat in Lev 16 and so also are the lost (in a secondary sense).Anyone can read the thread Bob. She claimed satan is the scapegoat.
If you pay attention to the details you will know why -- you need a strong argument that pays attention to details for it to work. Your method of ignoring the details does not work.And I didn't see anything that debunked the details the first time.
We all claim that Satan is the scapegoat in Lev 16 and so also are the lost (in a secondary sense).
We also claim that the scapegoat is never called "the sin offering" and it is in fact - not a sin offering at all. It makes no substitutionary atoning payment for anything at all in Lev 16.
If you pay attention to the details you will know why -- you need a strong argument that pays attention to details for it to work. Your method of ignoring the details does not work.
And if you think you can go to the average SDA congregation and find them split on the subject of the Trinity - I challenge you to actually try that. It is not as easy as you seem to suppose. I have been to a great many congregations where this it not debated against at all.
It is hard to find such a congregation and when you do find one - it always ends in either the leaders being disfellowshipped or else coming to a better understanding of the Bible and the triune Godhead.
Bob, don't worry, the denomination is doing the hard work for us!
The 2023 Global Church Member Survey obtained views of Seventh-day Adventists, primarily in the North American Division.
Secretary’s Report on Day Four of NAD Year-End Meeting Highlights Unity in Diversity | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists
On October 29, day four of the North American Division’s 2023 Year-End Meeting, NAD executive secretary Kyoshin Ahn and team delivered an eye-opening secretary’s report. Their presentations defined the state of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America, emphasized secretariat ministries’...www.nadadventist.org
In 2022, 1,819 NAD members responded, primarily from the U.S. (80 percent) and Canada (nine percent). Interestingly, two-thirds had been baptized for more than 30 years, and more than a third considered themselves active participants or leaders in the church. Most (40 percent) were 65 and older, with a significant minority (27 percent) between 36-54, and 62 percent were female.
One of the findings:
Forty-one percent believe the Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a person.
Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian view were disfellowshipped following their completion of the survey?
@Leaf473
@The Liturgist
41% of what???Forty-one percent believe the Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a person.
I have seen them disfellowshipped in my local church. A tiny spec of the total number of SDAs in my area all of which accept the Trinity.Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian
41% of what???
41% of a sampling of 1,819 out of 22,000,000 ????
nice try.
In fact Bob, the study shows they accept the belief statement. But then when asked about particulars it shows that they do not really believe in the Trinity at all, as the study points out that they do not see the personhood of the Spirit.Your link says
"A large majority (81%) of the weighted global sample wholeheartedly embraced belief in
the Trinity (one God, a unity of three eternal equal persons; item B6.1). Another 13%
accepted this belief because the church teaches it (total of 94%). Only 1% had major doubts"
I notice you bury that point such that no one reading your posts would even guess that this is what your source actually says..
but it explains why we do see non-trinitarians disfellowshipped as I pointed out and the fact that the group is such a tiny speck of a number in the general area for SDAs.
"Jerusalem" is the place where God chose to place His name. How did He do this? By the Temple. When the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given, as per Daniel's prophecy, it entailed the rebuilding of the Temple in addition to the city's walls.False prophecy #1.
Jerusalem will never be built up again, Early Writings, p. 75 - EGW FAILED
Jereusalem will be trampled under foot until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Luke 21:24 -Jesus - Fulfilled
Ellen White did not say England would attack the United States during the Civil War. The "false accuser" perhaps misread/misunderstood a point of English grammar; that the word "when" can mean "if". Read carefully:False prophecy #2
England will attack the United STATES during the civil war Ellen White, Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 259. - FAILED
Said the angel: “Hear, O heavens, the cry of the oppressed, and reward the oppressors double according to their deeds.” This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. England is studying whether it is best to take advantage of the present weak condition of our nation, and venture to make war upon her. She is weighing the matter, and trying to sound other nations. She fears, if she should commence war abroad, that she would be weak at home, and that other nations would take advantage of her weakness. Other nations are making quiet yet active preparations for war, and are hoping that England will make war with our nation, for then they would improve the opportunity to be revenged on her for the advantage she has taken of them in the past and the injustice done them. A portion of the queen's subjects are waiting a favorable opportunity to break their yoke; but if England thinks it will pay, she will not hesitate a moment to improve her opportunities to exercise her power and humble our nation. When England does declare war, all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion. England is acquainted with the diversity of feeling among those who are seeking to quell the rebellion. She well knows the perplexed condition of our Government; she has looked with astonishment at the prosecution of this war—the slow, inefficient moves, the inactivity of our armies, and the ruinous expenses of our nation. The weakness of our Government is fully open before other nations, and they now conclude that it is because it was not a monarchial government, and they admire their own government, and look down, some with pity, others with contempt, upon our nation, which they have regarded as the most powerful upon the globe. Had our nation remained united it would have had strength, but divided it must fall. 1T 259.1
Why is this even considered to be a false prophecy? Jesus has been "about to return" for awhile already. Because his time is not our time, who are we to say he has not kept his promise?False Prophecy #3
The Civil War is a sign the Jesus is about to Return Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 260 -FAILED
The word "month" appears nowhere on the page indicated. In fact, the word does not appear in the entire section/chapter, nor in the one preceding nor following this. No prediction was made anywhere on this page giving a time for Jesus' return beyond saying "that time can last but a very little longer." This "#4" is just another false accusation.False Prophecy #4
Jesus would return in a few months (1850) Early Writings, p. 58 - FAILED
Actually, this is yet another false accusation, based on a misunderstanding of what Ellen White said. Read carefully:False Prophecy #5 Adventist alive in 1856 would be alive to see Jesus return. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 131-132. - FAILED, they are all dead.
I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, [Sister Clarissa M. Bonfoey, who fell asleep in Jesus only three days after this vision was given, was present in usual health, and was deeply impressed that she was one who would go into the grave, and stated her convictions to others.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” 1T 131.3
This again is based on a misunderstanding, because in other portions of her writings she predicts that slavery would be reinstituted. This could not happen unless it was first, for a time, abolished. If her writings are to be believed, once reinstated, slavery will not again be abolished before the return of Christ.False Prophecy #6 Christ would return BEFORE Slavery was Abolished.Early Writings, pp 35 - FAILED Slavery was abolished in 1864.
What is wrong with Enoch visiting Jupiter? Seeing him there does not mean he lived there, does it? I would like to visit there, too, when I am free to travel the universe as Enoch is.False Prophecy #7 She saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn Early Writings, pp. 39-40- Failed. No one lives on Jupiter or Saturn.
Given some of your posting in the Adventist section you may want to jump to the end of the thread where we are now discussing the Global survey results regarding views of the Trinity.I guess I'm late to this discussion, but here are my very brief remarks in answer to each of the false accusations.
I could give you some nice materials that would help him through the process if he's open to seeing what the Bible actually says. There are a couple of mistranslated Bible verses that appear to point contrary to the rest of scripture, but when translated correctly, they align just fine. One of those is Hebrews 1:8, which the Trinitarian translators of the KJV messed up, and virtually all other Bible translations have followed suit. It quotes directly from Psalm 45:6 which was mistranslated in the same fashion. I am so thankful to be learning Hebrew and able to understand these things for myself. Most pastors are misleading the flock on this issue. The Bible speaks of the "unfaithful shepherds." Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled. It will be a sad day.A guy at the SDA local church is struggling with this issue. he is a Lawyer he is figuring it out.
Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian view were disfellowshipped following their completion of the survey?
Those saying Jesus was God contradict one of these, and imply that he could not have had flesh because God does not.
Many Adventists think Ellen White was pro-Trinity, particularly with the publication of her book "The Desire of Ages." However, having attempted to find the support for these claims, through careful study of the book, I have succeeded only in finding counterclaims. It may well be that DA ranks among the most non-Trinitarian of her books. I think most Adventists who have a strong opinion on this subject have not done their own study but have accepted the say-so of someone else.
Neither the Bible, nor Ellen White, supports the Trinity.
Hi BibleLinguist, nice to meet you. Do you have any concerns about being disfellowshipped because of your views?The Bible teaches, shown by just three passages, that those who believe Jesus was God are actually against him (spirit of antichrist), ironically.
Here are those passages: John 4:24, Luke 24:39, and 1 John 4:2-3. Carefully considered together, it is evident that God is a spirit, a spirit does not have flesh, whereas Jesus had flesh. Those saying Jesus was God contradict one of these, and imply that he could not have had flesh because God does not. Therefore, by Biblical definition, they have the spirit of antichrist, because they deny he came in the flesh.
I am still a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church, and still pay tithes through the church. Jesus' prophecy that "They shall put you out of the synagogues" (John 16:2) has not yet been fulfilled in my case. But for many others, this has already happened. Notice that Jesus gave this prediction to his faithful ones. He did not say that apostates would be removed. For those who have been disfellowshiped, Jesus' words should be meaningful.
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