SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

Sophia7 · Sep 12, 2023

BobRyan said:
That is confusing for some people but we have some good examples for who is not so confused by it in my signature line. Where all those Sunday keeping groups agree with the Sabbath keeping groups that the TEN are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12.

Those groups are not the Bible. Where does the Bible say the ten commandments are "the moral law"?

BobRyan said:
The law such that "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- it is the law that defines what sin IS - as Rom 3:19 tells us, as 1 John 3:4 tells us and as Romans 6 and James 2 also inform us. So not too surprising that almost all Christian denominations on planet earth align at this point.

Where does the Bible say that "the law" in those texts refers to the ten commandments?

On the contrary, James 2 says this:

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

That portion refers to the Old Testament commandments regarding loving your neighbor (as quoted by Jesus) and not showing partiality, neither of which is from the ten commandments.

BobRyan said:
No wonder since in Eph 6:2 the TEN are specifically singled out as having "honor your father and mother" as "The first commandment with a promise" -- applicable to all mankind in that New Covenant.

Ephesians 6 quotes this commandment, yes, but it does not refer to the ten commandments as "the moral law." That is, again, a distinction not found in Scripture.

BobRyan said:
No wonder since in Jeremiah's day they knew about the Deut 5:22 fact that "God spoke these TEN words from the cloud to the people and ADDED NO more". Meaning that when Jeremiah says God writes His LAW on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant - his readers had to be dead sure that this included the TEN at the very minimum, no matter what else it also included.

Again, which version tells us God's exact words--the Exodus version or the Deuteronomy version of the ten commandments?

BobRyan said:
Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today as included in the moral law of God (under the NEW Covenant) --
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

They are not the Bible, and many other preachers, theologians, and confessions disagree. The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran), for example, does not align with the Westminster Confession on this issue. Which one should we believe? I would say those that agree with the Bible. And the Bible does not define the ten commandments as "the moral law."

BobRyan said:
1. I do that in the details of the comments above. And you are not responding to those details from what I have seen so far.
2. I am not saying you do not have free will to ignore all that you wish to ignore. but it is "instructive" to the unbiased objective readers that BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to this one obvious detail about the TEN and the moral law of God.

Those details do not show a text from the Bible that calls the ten commandments "the moral law."

Sophia7 · Sep 12, 2023

BobRyan said:
Ex 20 is pretty clear about what it is -- I assume you have read it.

Deut 5 says it is what God spoke to Israel directly from the cloud - which was recorded in Ex 20 as anyone who reads that chapter can see.

Deut 5 says it is the words of Ex 20 spoken by God directly to Israel from the top of the mountain in the cloud. How is that even a little bit confusing??

Deut 5
words the Lord spoke to your whole assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, from the cloud, and from the thick darkness, with a great voice, and He added nothing more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me. 23 And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you approached me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. 24 You said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with mankind, yet he lives. 25 Now then, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die! 26 For who is there of humanity who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go near and listen to everything that the Lord our God says; then speak to us everything that the Lord our God speaks to you, and we will listen and do it.’

Refers explicitly to Israel's response to those words in Ex 20.
18 And all the people were watching and hearing the thunder and the lightning flashes, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it all, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but do not have God speak to us, or we will die!”

How is this even a little bit confusing???

The two versions are not the same.

Sophia7 · Sep 12, 2023

BobRyan said:
The idea that LSD, cocaine, marijuanna should not be abstained from - because the Bible does not name them specifically is hard to take seriously given what we do know of scripture... in 1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 regarding the Body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

But what the Bible doesn't state as a commandment shouldn't be presented as such. There are good reasons to abstain from some of those things, but they are not biblical commandments.

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

Sophia7 said:
Plus the dietary commandments of Lev. 11. Plus prohibitions against alcohol, coffee, jewelry, dancing, etc., which are not even biblical commandments. Plus meat eating is highly discouraged and considered by some Adventists (including Ellen White) detrimental to a person's spiritual condition.

Which is really weird about the meat eating, since God commanded it in certain situations.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 12:8 - New American Standard Bible

They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

www.biblegateway.com

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
You stated previously that it has nothing to do with "my interpretation" but rather the words that we can all read in Ex 20 -- are what you reject.

Are you changing your mind now????

What statement of mine are you referring to?

I do not reject any scriptures, all scripture is beneficial.

I invite you to post the scriptures from the Old testament that you believe contain the laws we are to keep today.

Or give the URL of the official SDA web page(s) where they are listed.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6:6-7 - New American Standard Bible

These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. And you shall repeat them diligently to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, when you walk on the road, when you lie down, and when you get up.

www.biblegateway.com

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

Sophia7 said:
But you still haven't provided evidence that Scripture establishes a category of "the moral law."

I'm sure you already know the phrase "moral law" doesn't occur in literal translations of the scriptures.

Something I didn't know until just now is that apparently it doesn't occur at the official SDA website, either:
"No results found for "moral laws" site:Home | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists."

"moral laws" site:https://www.nadadventist.org/ at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

tall73 · Sep 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
God is not confined to your narrow boxes.

So Bob, if someone came to you claiming that Gabriel was the Holy Spirit you would point out that "the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery; it is not clearly revealed?"

You wouldn't point out the Scriptures which indicate the Holy Spirit is God?

We are baptized into the singular name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, no mention of Gabriel.

Gabriel stands in the presence of God in Luke 1:19, but 1 Corinthians 2 indicates that the Spirit of God knows the mind of God.

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
Some tiny group ... that rejects SDA Fundamental Beliefs do exist.

no wait! you never heard of any Christian denomination where some tiny group within it differs on at least something?

Seriously??

No, I've heard of that going on another groups. But the key is, do they hold positions of power or authority?

Can a person be, say, an SDA pastor and disagree with some part of the common Trinity teaching in the Christian world?

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
Some tiny group ... that rejects SDA Fundamental Beliefs do exist.

What leads you to believe it is tiny? Do you have statistics?

Sophia7 · Sep 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
I'm sure you already know the phrase "moral law" doesn't occur in literal translations of the scriptures.

Something I didn't know until just now is that apparently it doesn't occur at the official SDA website, either:
"No results found for "moral laws" site:Home | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists."

"moral laws" site:https://www.nadadventist.org/ at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Interesting

tall73 · Sep 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
I'm sure you already know the phrase "moral law" doesn't occur in literal translations of the scriptures.

Something I didn't know until just now is that apparently it doesn't occur at the official SDA website, either:
"No results found for "moral laws" site:Home | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists."

"moral laws" site:https://www.nadadventist.org/ at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

The site search does bring up "moral" including moral law.

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

tall73 said:
The site search does bring up "moral" including moral law.

Cool! I'll check it out. The site search for DuckDuckGo doesn't always catch everything

Leaf473 · Sep 13, 2023

tall73 said:
The site search does bring up "moral" including moral law.

Leaf473 said:
Cool! I'll check it out. The site search for DuckDuckGo doesn't always catch everything

I see the problem now. I was searching the North American website. (I thought it looked different, I'm used to seeing the world-wide website.)

In any case, I still haven't found the actual scriptures containing all of the laws from the Old testament that Adventists believe are for today on either website. Maybe a list is there and I haven't found it?

I did find this which has this section which sounds promising "What commandments are in God’s Law"

What Is the Law of God According to the Bible?

God’s law reflects His character, just, loving, and eternal. The Bible shows how His commandments bring freedom and life.

www.adventist.org

But it lists only the 10.

tall73 · Sep 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
What leads you to believe it is tiny? Do you have statistics?

Merlin Burt, Adventist historian and researcher, described it as small but significant, and increasing over the decade leading up to 2006. Not sure what the numbers are now.

But his paper gives an overview of the views through 1957:

The Trinity in Seventh-day Adventist History

By Merlin D. Burt, Published on 04/01/08

digitalcommons.andrews.edu

BobRyan · Sep 13, 2023

BobRyan said:

The idea that LSD, cocaine, marijuanna should not be abstained from - because the Bible does not name them specifically is hard to take seriously given what we do know of scripture... in 1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 regarding the Body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Sophia7 said:
But what the Bible doesn't state as a commandment shouldn't be presented as such.

If there are Christians that want to do LSD, crack Cocain etc and say that since the Bible does not name Cocain they should be able to take it .. that is fine with me. Everyone has free will.

As for the rest of us.

1 Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Sophia7 said:
There are good reasons to abstain from some of those things, but they are not biblical commandments.

For those of us that read 1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 - we find a lot of biblical support for what we are doing.

BobRyan · Sep 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Wait, there are non-Trinitarian Adventists?

Some tiny group ... that rejects SDA Fundamental Beliefs do exist.

no wait! you never heard of any Christian denomination where some tiny group within it differs on at least something?

Seriously??

Leaf473 said:
What leads you to believe it is tiny? Do you have statistics?

I have the SDA Fundamental Beliefs that include things like the triune Godhead and full acceptance of the the Holy Spirit as "The third Person of the Godhead" - and I actually attend an SDA church, am connected with some of its leadership and have attended a great many SDA churches in my lifetime. And we have a number of well accepted SDA publications where various reasonable views are discussed pro-and-con -- so then "enough to know an oddity when I see it".

of the 22 Million aparently you are admitting you have not met 1 million or even 1000 that deny the trinity. I don't blame you for not claiming to have found such a group.

BobRyan · Sep 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
No, I've heard of that going on another groups. But the key is, do they hold positions of power or authority?

Can a person be, say, an SDA pastor and disagree with some part of the common Trinity teaching in the Christian world?

It is possible they could get by with it in some dark corner some place as long as their conference did not suspect them of it. It "could happen" -- but such an oddity does not "define the entire denomination" as we all know.

So then (as is almost always the case in our discussions) -- I am just stating the obvious.

BobRyan · Sep 13, 2023

tall73 said:
So Bob, if someone came to you claiming that Gabriel was the Holy Spirit you would point out that "the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery; it is not clearly revealed?"

I do believe the nature of God is infinite and not fully revealed in general - so I could never deny that.

As for the full context in your snip quotes ... well as you know --- I am not one of your typical "has no access to the material and no time to find context" folks that often read some of your posts. I think you are barking up the wrong tree when you try that with me. You might want to pick someone else for that.

I am the sort of person with access to actual published material like this --

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 130, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. Another spirit must be met; for the essence of evil was working in all ways, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. 11LtMs, Lt 8, 1896, par. 2

=====================================
"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 -- no matter how much you may object to it in the statements of Ellen White.

tall73 · Sep 13, 2023

tall73 said:
Merlin Burt, Adventist historian and researcher, described it as small but significant, and increasing over the decade leading up to 2006. Not sure what the numbers are now.

But his paper gives an overview of the views through 1957:

[URL unfurl="tru

Leaf473 said:
What leads you to believe it is tiny? Do you have statistics?

I posted the study from 2006, but they must have some statistics on the matter because in 2017 they were now claiming two decades of increases:

____

The Trinity Project :: Andrews University

www.andrews.edu

In the last two decades, there has been a resurgence of Arianism and anti-Trinitarianism, not only in the Seventh-day Adventist Church but also in the wider Christian and Evangelical world.

tall73 · Sep 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
I do believe the nature of God is infinite and not fully revealed in general - so I could never deny that.

Who said you would deny that God is infinite? But you would not explain that the Holy Spirit was God to the guy advocating the Holy Spirit was Gabriel? Because she didn't.

Now you quote her later statements which I and the historians agree with. But she said none of that prior to 1883 including when asked by a poor confused guy.

BobRyan said:
As for the full context in your snip quotes ... well as you know --- I am not one of your typical "has no access to the material and no time to find context" folks that often read some of your posts. I think you are barking up the wrong tree when you try that with me. You might want to pick someone else for that.

I am the sort of person with access to actual published material like this --

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 130, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. Another spirit must be met; for the essence of evil was working in all ways, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. 11LtMs, Lt 8, 1896, par. 2

=====================================
"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 -- no matter how much you may object to it in the statements of Ellen White.

Too bad it took until 1893 for her to start working that out.

And you still ignored her earlier non-trinitarian statements.

SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the or objections to EGW

YES

NO

OTHER

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