SDA: Moses Resurrected from the Dead

[mmksparbud]

I am not reading that. It is two different instances.

One the angel of the Lord appearing to Moses in the flame of fire in the bush.

Two when the Lord say that Moses was looking to see.

I don't read them at all as a continuation.

2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

Exodus 3 is all about the burning bush--same encounter. It is better to just read Exodus 3 for yourself.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Exodus 3 is all about the burning bush--same encounter. It is better to just read Exodus 3 for yourself.

I was referring to specifically what it says in Exodus 2, which are the verses you quoted and I also quoted.

I am not basing Exodus 2 off of Exodus 3. Please also be more specific and list verses.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am confused-----I never quoted Ex 2--just Ex 3---then Acts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am confused-----I never quoted Ex 2--just Ex 3---then Acts.

My bad. Got my chapters mixed up. Ex. 3

 

[Dale]

No---God the Father is God the Father--period. Jesus has many titles, names. Prince of Peace and so on. This is not a uniquely SDA position that Jesus and Michael are the same. I had researched it online and there were other denominations that say the same thing and gave verse after verse for believing so. I can't, right now, remember them all. I do not consider this being disrespectful--it is one of those questions that get people riled up about so I understand that this may come as rather startling. I'll try and look up the verses.

Sparbud,

You say there is "verse after verse" to support the notion that Jesus and Michael are the same. There are a number of verses where there is a Michael in a geneaology but there are only four verses in the Bible where Michael is an angel. The last one is the verse in Jude that we've already talked about. The other three are in Daniel.


13 "But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia."
--Daniel 10: 13 NIV


21 "... but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince."
--Daniel 10:21 NIV


“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise."
--Daniel 12:1 NIV


Daniel tells us that Michael is "your prince," a "chief prince," and a "great prince." Since Michael is an angel, this means that he is a commander of angels, a commander among angels. It also implies that there are other princes of angels or commanders of angels. No verse makes Michael a Savior or a coming Messiah or a son of God. No verse puts Michael on a throne in heaven or makes him the judge of the world. I'm not seeing a reason to think that Michael is Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

Sparbud,

You say there is "verse after verse" to support the notion that Jesus and Michael are the same. There are a number of verses where there is a Michael in a geneaology but there are only four verses in the Bible where Michael is an angel. The last one is the verse in Jude that we've already talked about. The other three are in Daniel.


13 "But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia."
--Daniel 10: 13 NIV


21 "... but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince."
--Daniel 10:21 NIV


“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise."
--Daniel 12:1 NIV


Daniel tells us that Michael is "your prince," a "chief prince," and a "great prince." Since Michael is an angel, this means that he is a commander of angels, a commander among angels. It also implies that there are other princes of angels or commanders of angels. No verse makes Michael a Savior or a coming Messiah or a son of God. No verse puts Michael on a throne in heaven or makes him the judge of the world. I'm not seeing a reason to think that Michael is Jesus.

That's OK--you don't have too! It's a matter of reading the verses and seeing what is there. Such as Ex 3.
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Hagar
Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

No angel is going to make anyone a great nation.

Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

No mere angel can do this.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's OK--you don't have too! It's a matter of reading the verses and seeing what is there. Such as Ex 3.
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Clear designation between the angel of the Lord and the Lord.

Notice the Lord doesn't chime in until after the angel of the Lord showed Moses what the Lord had sent the angel to show.

 

[Dale]

That's OK--you don't have too! It's a matter of reading the verses and seeing what is there. Such as Ex 3.
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Hagar
Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

No angel is going to make anyone a great nation.

Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

No mere angel can do this.

mmksparbud,
I don't believe that "the angel of the Lord" is relevant to the question of whether Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

Exactly why the Bible uses the phrase "the angle of the Lord" is obscure. Some scholars have thought that this odd phrase emerges from the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar. Some have thought that Biblical authors were trying to emphasize the transcendence of God by describing a manifestation of God as "the angel of the Lord." Others have thought that God assumes a temporary angelic body when appearing to a mortal. Of these explanations, I think the second and the third make more sense.

What is clear is that the Archangel Michael is not "the angel of the Lord," or at least we are given no reason to think so.

 

[mmksparbud]

mmksparbud,
I don't believe that "the angel of the Lord" is relevant to the question of whether Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

Exactly why the Bible uses the phrase "the angle of the Lord" is obscure. Some scholars have thought that this odd phrase emerges from the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar. Some have thought that Biblical authors were trying to emphasize the transcendence of God by describing a manifestation of God as "the angel of the Lord." Others have thought that God assumes a temporary angelic body when appearing to a mortal. Of these explanations, I think the second and the third make more sense.

What is clear is that the Archangel Michael is not "the angel of the Lord," or at least we are given no reason to think so.

Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
Gen 31:12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

"What is clear is that the Archangel Michael is not "the angel of the Lord," or at least we are given no reason to think so.[/QUOTE]"

Plenty of reason to think so--but you do not have to believe.

 

[bbbbbbb]

mmksparbud,
I don't believe that "the angel of the Lord" is relevant to the question of whether Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

Exactly why the Bible uses the phrase "the angle of the Lord" is obscure. Some scholars have thought that this odd phrase emerges from the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar. Some have thought that Biblical authors were trying to emphasize the transcendence of God by describing a manifestation of God as "the angel of the Lord." Others have thought that God assumes a temporary angelic body when appearing to a mortal. Of these explanations, I think the second and the third make more sense.

What is clear is that the Archangel Michael is not "the angel of the Lord," or at least we are given no reason to think so.

Perhaps it might help you to know that the word for angel is also frequently translated "messenger".

 

[mmksparbud]

Perhaps it might help you to know that the word for angel is also frequently translated "messenger".

Exactly----Jesus is the greatest of God's messengers---He came to point us to the Father.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Exactly----Jesus is the greatest of God's messengers---He came to point us to the Father.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Why is that not even once in the entire New Testament is Jesus Christ referred to as an angel (angelos in Greek)?

 

[mmksparbud]

Why is that not even once in the entire New Testament is Jesus Christ referred to as an angel (angelos in Greek)?

Not His primary role. In the old Testament, He is referred to by many titles. Michael and angel of the Lord, Lord of Hosts, Prince of Peace, and so on--are just other titles.

 

[Dale]

Let me return to the subject of whether Moses resurrected in OT times.

Here is a verse from the Gospels that casts doubt on that.

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
--John 8:49-53 NIV


Notice that the Pharisees say that the prophets died. That includes Moses. These experts in the Old Testament know nothing about a resurrection of Moses and Jesus doesn't correct them on that point.

 

[mmksparbud]

Let me return to the subject of whether Moses resurrected in OT times.

Here is a verse from the Gospels that casts doubt on that.

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
--John 8:49-53 NIV


Notice that the Pharisees say that the prophets died. That includes Moses. These experts in the Old Testament know nothing about a resurrection of Moses and Jesus doesn't correct them on that point.

And who says Moses didn't die??---He tasted death, there was nothing to correct them about.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let me return to the subject of whether Moses resurrected in OT times.

Here is a verse from the Gospels that casts doubt on that.

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
--John 8:49-53 NIV


Notice that the Pharisees say that the prophets died. That includes Moses. These experts in the Old Testament know nothing about a resurrection of Moses and Jesus doesn't correct them on that point.

That's an interesting point. But Moses did die, right?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If Moses did die, why would one think that he has been resurrected already?

 

[mmksparbud]

If Moses did die, why would one think that he has been resurrected already?

He was at the transfiguration of Jesus with Elijah, there is no other reason for Michael and Satan to be contending over his body.

 

[Dale]

He was at the transfiguration of Jesus with Elijah, there is no other reason for Michael and Satan to be contending over his body.

Sparbud,

It looks like you didn't read my post #41. In that post I compare what Jude verse 9 actually says to Ellen White's account of the resurrection of Moses. They don't match at all. If you take the story that Jude refers to as literal truth, it rules out Ellen White's account of a fearful Satan who stands aside.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[mmksparbud]

The passage in Jude, referred to above, probably seems to the SDA to place Michael at the grave of Moses. The SDA teach that Michael and Jesus are the same, so this seems to place Jesus at the grave of Moses, just as their founder Ellen White does. Ellen White says that Jesus came to the grave to resurrect Moses from the dead. Does the passage in Jude give any support to the EW view of a resurrection of Moses? No, it doesn’t and here’s why.


9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
–Jude verse 9 RSV


9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
–Jude verse 9 KJV

"For the first time Christ was about to give life to the dead. As the Prince of life and the shining ones approached the grave, Satan was alarmed for his supremacy."
Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 43: The Death of Moses (Kindle Location 7696-7700)


What happens when we put the verse in Jude side by side with Ellen White's picture of the resurrection of Moses? They don't match at all. In Jude, the Devil is cantankerous, insulting, aggressive, actively seeking to seize the body of Moses. In E. White's description, Satan stands aside, taking no part, terrified, hoping that things don't turn out too badly as Christ approaches. These two accounts don't add up at all.

You seem to have point--however----"Satan was alarmed for his supremacy" is the only sentence you plucked out of that paragraph---Being fearful of his supremacy in no indicates he meekly stepped aside in fear as you claim---why not post the whole paragraph?

For the first time Christ was about to give life to the dead. As the Prince of life and the shining ones approached the grave, Satan was alarmed for his supremacy. With his evil angels he stood to dispute an invasion of the territory that he claimed as his own. He boasted that the servant of God had become his prisoner. He declared that even Moses was not able to keep the law of God; that he had taken to himself the glory due to Jehovah—the very sin which had caused Satan’s banishment from heaven—and by transgression had come under the dominion of Satan. The archtraitor reiterated the original charges that he had made against the divine government, and repeated his complaints of God’s injustice toward him. {PP 478.3}

I see nothing in this that contradicts Jude. Just as you described:
"In Jude, the Devil is cantankerous, insulting, aggressive, actively seeking to seize the body of Moses."