SDA: Moses Resurrected from the Dead

[Dale]

The passage in Jude, referred to above, probably seems to the SDA to place Michael at the grave of Moses. The SDA teach that Michael and Jesus are the same, so this seems to place Jesus at the grave of Moses, just as their founder Ellen White does. Ellen White says that Jesus came to the grave to resurrect Moses from the dead. Does the passage in Jude give any support to the EW view of a resurrection of Moses? No, it doesn’t and here’s why.


9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
–Jude verse 9 RSV


9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
–Jude verse 9 KJV

"For the first time Christ was about to give life to the dead. As the Prince of life and the shining ones approached the grave, Satan was alarmed for his supremacy."
Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 43: The Death of Moses (Kindle Location 7696-7700)


What happens when we put the verse in Jude side by side with Ellen White's picture of the resurrection of Moses? They don't match at all. In Jude, the Devil is cantankerous, insulting, aggressive, actively seeking to seize the body of Moses. In E. White's description, Satan stands aside, taking no part, terrified, hoping that things don't turn out too badly as Christ approaches. These two accounts don't add up at all.

 

[mmksparbud]

Mmksparbud,

I think you are inserting words that aren't in the verse in Deuteronomy.

George Washington isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
Abraham Lincoln isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
Winston Churchill isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
The body of Moses isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
A newly resurrected Moses isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.

The soul of Moses may have gone to heaven but I don't think the SDA believe in a soul separate from the body.

The words "ascend," "taken to heaven," "taken up," "taken away," or "taken" don't appear in Deuteronomy 34. There is no choice between the body of Moses or a resurrected Moses being taken to heaven. This is a false choice based on the assumption that somebody or something went to heaven in this chapter.

The words that do appear in Deuteronomy 34 are "buried" and "grave" in the NIV and "buried" and "sepulchre" in the KJV. What happened is a burial and we are left with a grave. There was no resurrection and no ascension.

I know that!!!! I am asking what was Michael and the devil contending about the body of Moses in Jude??

 

[ViaCrucis]

I know that!!!! I am asking what was Michael and the devil contending about the body of Moses in Jude??

"We have now to notice, agreeably to the statements of Scripture, how the opposing powers, or the devil himself, contends with the human race, inciting and instigating men to sin. And in the first place, in the book of Genesis, the serpent is described as having seduced Eve; regarding whom, in the work entitled The Ascension of Moses (a little treatise, of which the Apostle Jude makes mention in his Epistle), the archangel Michael, when disputing with the devil regarding the body of Moses, says that the serpent, being inspired by the devil, was the cause of Adam and Eve's transgression." - Origen, De Principiis, Book III, ch. 2.1

In the Jewish Targums it mentions that Michael was given charge over Moses' burial,

"Blessed be the Name of the Lord of the world, who hath taught us His righteous way. He hath taught us to clothe the naked, as He clothed Adam and Hava; He hath taught us to unite the bridegroom and the bride in marriage, as He united Hava to Adam. He bath taught us to visit the sick, as He revealed Himself to Abraham when he was ill, from being circumcised; He hath taught us to console the mourners, as He revealed Himself again to Jakob when returning from Padan, in the place where his mother had died. He hath taught us to feed the poor, as He sent Israel bread from heaven; He hath taught us to bury the dead by (what He did for) Mosheh; for He revealed Himself in His Word, and with Him the companies of ministering angels. Michael and Gabriel spread forth the golden bed, fastened with chrysolites, gems, and beryls, adorned with hangings of purple silk, and satin, and white linens. Metatron, Jophiel, and Uriel, and Jephephya, the wise sages, laid him upon it, and by His Word He conducted him four miles, and buried him in the valley opposite Beth Peor; that Israel, as oft as they look up to Peor, may have the memory of their sin; and at sight of the burying place of Mosheh may be humbled: but no man knoweth his sepulchre unto this day." - Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, Deuteronomy 34

The idea that Michael had been given charge over Moses' remains would itself be sufficient to explain Michael's presence in the tradition.

The Devarim Rabbah, a work of medieval Jewish aggadah, has Sammael (Satan) mocking Michael and being impatient for Moses' death,

"And he said, ‘When will the longed-for moment come when Michael shall weep and I shall laugh?’ And at last the time came when Michael said to Sammael, ‘Ah! cursed one! Shall I weep while thou laughest?’ and made answer in the words of Micah, ‘Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me’"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

"We have now to notice, agreeably to the statements of Scripture, how the opposing powers, or the devil himself, contends with the human race, inciting and instigating men to sin. And in the first place, in the book of Genesis, the serpent is described as having seduced Eve; regarding whom, in the work entitled The Ascension of Moses (a little treatise, of which the Apostle Jude makes mention in his Epistle), the archangel Michael, when disputing with the devil regarding the body of Moses, says that the serpent, being inspired by the devil, was the cause of Adam and Eve's transgression." - Origen, De Principiis, Book III, ch. 2.1

In the Jewish Targums it mentions that Michael was given charge over Moses' burial,

"Blessed be the Name of the Lord of the world, who hath taught us His righteous way. He hath taught us to clothe the naked, as He clothed Adam and Hava; He hath taught us to unite the bridegroom and the bride in marriage, as He united Hava to Adam. He bath taught us to visit the sick, as He revealed Himself to Abraham when he was ill, from being circumcised; He hath taught us to console the mourners, as He revealed Himself again to Jakob when returning from Padan, in the place where his mother had died. He hath taught us to feed the poor, as He sent Israel bread from heaven; He hath taught us to bury the dead by (what He did for) Mosheh; for He revealed Himself in His Word, and with Him the companies of ministering angels. Michael and Gabriel spread forth the golden bed, fastened with chrysolites, gems, and beryls, adorned with hangings of purple silk, and satin, and white linens. Metatron, Jophiel, and Uriel, and Jephephya, the wise sages, laid him upon it, and by His Word He conducted him four miles, and buried him in the valley opposite Beth Peor; that Israel, as oft as they look up to Peor, may have the memory of their sin; and at sight of the burying place of Mosheh may be humbled: but no man knoweth his sepulchre unto this day." - Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, Deuteronomy 34

The idea that Michael had been given charge over Moses' remains would itself be sufficient to explain Michael's presence in the tradition.

The Devarim Rabbah, a work of medieval Jewish aggadah, has Sammael (Satan) mocking Michael and being impatient for Moses' death,

"And he said, ‘When will the longed-for moment come when Michael shall weep and I shall laugh?’ And at last the time came when Michael said to Sammael, ‘Ah! cursed one! Shall I weep while thou laughest?’ and made answer in the words of Micah, ‘Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me’"

-CryptoLutheran

Those are not considered canon anymore than the book of Enoch. And the dispute is over the body of Moses, not his death.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Those are not considered canon anymore than the book of Enoch.

Irrelevant.

And the dispute is over the body of Moses, not his death.

If we want to understand the tradition Jude is referring to, having some context is helpful.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

Irrelevant.



If we want to understand the tradition Jude is referring to, having some context is helpful.

-CryptoLutheran

Not to me. You're reference, however, is irrelevant to me.
Context is important---the fact remains---the dispute is over the body of Moses--not his death.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The passage in Jude, referred to above, probably seems to the SDA to place Michael at the grave of Moses. The SDA teach that Michael and Jesus are the same, so this seems to place Jesus at the grave of Moses, just as their founder Ellen White does. Ellen White says that Jesus came to the grave to resurrect Moses from the dead. Does the passage in Jude give any support to the EW view of a resurrection of Moses? No, it doesn’t and here’s why.


9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
–Jude verse 9 RSV


9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
–Jude verse 9 KJV

"For the first time Christ was about to give life to the dead. As the Prince of life and the shining ones approached the grave, Satan was alarmed for his supremacy."
Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 43: The Death of Moses (Kindle Location 7696-7700)


What happens when we put the verse in Jude side by side with Ellen White's picture of the resurrection of Moses? They don't match at all. In Jude, the Devil is cantankerous, insulting, aggressive, actively seeking to seize the body of Moses. In E. White's description, Satan stands aside, taking no part, terrified, hoping that things don't turn out too badly as Christ approaches. These two accounts don't add up at all.

So now God is an arch angel?

 

[Dale]

Be it as it may. It is not, in this case, the ideas of the general public that matters. It is the truth. And the truth is death can not, never, will, never has, entered into the presence of God. Moses dead body did not go into heaven---he was resurrected. It was not a dead body that was with Jesus and Elijah at the transfiguration.

The notion of a "dead body" being taken to heaven or being with Elijah at the Transfiguration is a straw man, a weak argument set up to be knocked down. No one believes it was a dead body.

Most Christians would consider the possibility that Jesus talked with the spirits of Moses and Elijah. As I understand it, the SDA don't believe in spirits, or spirits apart from the body, so they reject that possibility out of hand. That is what you are doing.

Correct me if I am wrong. According to Ellen White, Satan has a physical body and the rest of the rebel angels have physical bodies. They had bodies when they rebelled, they were thrown bodily out of heaven and they still have those bodies. They can be destroyed by fire because it is those bodies that can be destroyed by fire.

But this notion that there are no spirits, only demons who have bodies, contradicts numerous passages in the Gospels. What about all the places where Jesus, or the Apostles, cast out evil spirits? What is going on here? Take a look at the following verses, which I have provided in two translations.

The Return of the Unclean Spirit
43 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation.”
--Matthew 12: 43-45 RSV


43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
--Matthew 12: 43-45 NIV


The SDA prophetess Ellen White says that there are no spirits. The Gospels say that there are.

 

[mmksparbud]

The notion of a "dead body" being taken to heaven or being with Elijah at the Transfiguration is a straw man, a weak argument set up to be knocked down. No one believes it was a dead body.

Most Christians would consider the possibility that Jesus talked with the spirits of Moses and Elijah. As I understand it, the SDA don't believe in spirits, or spirits apart from the body, so they reject that possibility out of hand. That is what you are doing.

Correct me if I am wrong. According to Ellen White, Satan has a physical body and the rest of the rebel angels have physical bodies. They had bodies when they rebelled, they were thrown bodily out of heaven and they still have those bodies. They can be destroyed by fire because it is those bodies that can be destroyed by fire.

But this notion that there are no spirits, only demons who have bodies, contradicts numerous passages in the Gospels. What about all the places where Jesus, or the Apostles, cast out evil spirits? What is going on here? Take a look at the following verses, which I have provided in two translations.

The Return of the Unclean Spirit
43 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation.”
--Matthew 12: 43-45 RSV


43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
--Matthew 12: 43-45 NIV


The SDA prophetess Ellen White says that there are no spirits. The Gospels say that there are.

I told you before----it is not I that believe that it was Moses' dead body that was taken to heaven. If you read the posts you will that.
And, no, I do not believe in the dead going directly to heaven or hell---and yes, I do believe that Satan and his followers and the angels all have bodies---what manner of bodies, and by that I mean, what their composition is, I do not know, nor does anyone else. That Cherubim and seraphim are described in the bible is a fact, and they are described with wings. So they obviously have some form of bodies but they are not human. As to fire destroying them---the fire that God has at the lake of fire will destroy them, that is no ordinary fire, I do not believe that regular earthly fire would destroy them.
Of course there are demons---the bible speaks of them. Those are the fallen angels. No place in the bible states they are "the spirits of the evil dead" as some people say. Those kind of spirits we do not believe in--the fallen angels are the evil spirits and demons.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The passage in Jude, referred to above, probably seems to the SDA to place Michael at the grave of Moses. The SDA teach that Michael and Jesus are the same, so this seems to place Jesus at the grave of Moses, just as their founder Ellen White does. Ellen White says that Jesus came to the grave to resurrect Moses from the dead. Does the passage in Jude give any support to the EW view of a resurrection of Moses? No, it doesn’t and here’s why.

May I ask SDA ppl how they can think or reconcile scripture that God and an angel are the same? I don't get it. Don't want to be disrespectful or argumentative, just want to know how SDA ppl can reconcile it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand that---but to assume that a dead body was taken to heaven is beyond sound reasoning. It was no dead body at the transfiguration. and Jude is talking about a contention over the body of Moses. Like I said--- what is there to contend about if it was Moses spirit that went to heaven-- there would be no need of his body. I will say both sides are stretching it--- but a dead body in heaven really stretches it as compared to a living body. Satan didn't want him resurrected, that is why there was a contention, Otherwise --- no need of one.
Loved: nothing states that he was resurrected--this is what Jude says
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Maybe there was some reason to protect it in some way. There must have been some reason satan wanted it.

Another question. Do you find it interesting that the word 'body' is specifically used and not soul or spirit?

 

[mmksparbud]

Maybe there was some reason to protect it in some way. There must have been some reason satan wanted it.

Another question. Do you find it interesting that the word 'body' is specifically used and not soul or spirit?

Yes---if, as most Christians believe, his soul went to heaven at his death--there would be no reason to be protective about contention over his body, his would have remained where it was until the resurrection. If, however, he was resurrected, there was plenty of reason for Satan to be upset, not something that he would want.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes---if, as most Christians believe, his soul went to heaven at his death--there would be no reason to be protective about contention over his body, his would have remained where it was until the resurrection. If, however, he was resurrected, there was plenty of reason for Satan to be upset, not something that he would want.

But why would satan want the body? In heaven we will get new spiritual bodies, not human ones. That is my question.

Also, hello . It's been a while since I've seen you around

 

[mmksparbud]

May I ask SDA ppl how they can think or reconcile scripture that God and an angel are the same? I don't get it. Don't want to be disrespectful or argumentative, just want to know how SDA ppl can reconcile it.

No---God the Father is God the Father--period. Jesus has many titles, names. Prince of Peace and so on. This is not a uniquely SDA position that Jesus and Michael are the same. I had researched it online and there were other denominations that say the same thing and gave verse after verse for believing so. I can't, right now, remember them all. I do not consider this being disrespectful--it is one of those questions that get people riled up about so I understand that this may come as rather startling. I'll try and look up the verses.

 

[mmksparbud]

But why would satan want the body? In heaven we will get new spiritual bodies, not human ones. That is my question.

Also, hello . It's been a while since I've seen you around

Because he knows it is not the spirit that goes to heaven. We go with bodies, glorified, changed, but bodies, just as Jesus had one after His resurrection. So, no, if it was just a spiritual body it was talking about--there no need for contention.
I was gone for over 3 months---I had colon cancer surgery, at the end of which my lungs gave out and I was on a vent for 2 months. then had to go to rehab for a month to learn how to stand and hold a glass of water and so on. Rather dramatic. While there my dog, Sparky, died. She had not been well when I went in and I hate the thought that she died thinking I had left her.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is not a uniquely SDA position that Jesus and Michael are the same. I had researched it online and there were other denominations that say the same thing and gave verse after verse for believing so. I can't, right now, remember them all. I do not consider this being disrespectful--it is one of those questions that get people riled up about so I understand that this may come as rather startling. I'll try and look up the verses.

I'll putz around the internet, I've never heard this unless it is JW's or Mormons. Not saying you are wrong, but I'm not sure.

Do you have any resources for saying this?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was gone for over 3 months---I had colon cancer surgery, at the end of which my lungs gave out and I was on a vent for 2 months. then had to go to rehab for a month to learn how to stand and hold a glass of water and so on. Rather dramatic. While there my dog, Sparky, died. She had not been well when I went in and I hate the thought that she died thinking I had left her.

Awww. I am sorry to hear that you have been struggling with your health and other issues. My prayers are with you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No---God the Father is God the Father--period. Jesus has many titles, names. Prince of Peace and so on.

I was not referring to God the Father, but Jesus and His being God. Should have clarified.

So Jesus, being God and Michael.

 

[mmksparbud]

For starters:

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Now note the following-

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

Acts 7:32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, *I am* he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, *I am* he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Jesus Christ again makes it clear He is the *I am*. Merely speaking the words made those present fall over. So the *angel of the Lord* and Jesus are identical to, and synonymous with, the *I am* that met Moses at the burning bush.

 

[ToBeLoved]

For starters:

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

I am not reading that. It is two different instances.

One the angel of the Lord appearing to Moses in the flame of fire in the bush.

Two when the Lord say that Moses was looking to see.

I don't read them at all as a continuation.

2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”