Scriptures teaching on hell.

[LaSpino3]

WillieH, I would discuss the subject with you, as soon as you stop name calling. I agree with you that we should teach the gospel, but the subject of this tread is hell, and what the Bible teaches about it. And the Bible does have a great deal to say about it.

So are you saying the subject is not to be discussed? If so, is there is no judgment on the wicked, no hell, and no lake of fire? If so, what's there to fear from God? Nothing. It can be compared to no law, no police, no enforcement, no jail, no penalty for committing a crime. It would be a criminals environment. But there is a punishment for disobedience to God, and man, and this tread is about just that.

Phil LaSpino

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi LaSpino...

WillieH, I would discuss the subject with you, as soon as you stop name calling. I agree with you that we should teach the gospel, but the subject of this tread is hell, and what the Bible teaches about it. And the Bible does have a great deal to say about it.

Are you sure, LaSpino?

FIRST -- as I said, we as believers and followers of CHRIST, are commissioned to TEACH the GOSPEL -- Matt 28:19 -- Mark 16:15 -- not about the supposed negative BAD NEWS, proposed by and encompassed within MISTRANSLATION of both GREEK (hades, tartarus, gehenna) and HEBREW (sheol) words... Which are found translated "HELL" (mercilless place of FIRE torment) in some places, and GRAVE (the bed of DEATH) in some OTHER places, ...which is it, LaSpino?

The GRAVE (of DEATH as WAS taught to Adam) or HELL (which was NOT mentioned to him)?

HYPOCRISY is found in saying (CLAIMING) one thing, but doing another.

Which is it? Is it about GRAVE and DEATH? Or about NEVER ENDING/ NEVER BEGINNING = ETERNAL... TORTURE by the GOD which calls Himself, LOVE, PEACE, ALL MERCIFUL, full of GRACE, and the SAVIOR?

JESUS never even ONCE used the term "HELL". "Hell" is an ENGLISH word... which has been WAY over emphasised by those who "claim" to present the GOSPEL = GOOD NEWS... to the WORLD (that GOD so UNCHANGINGLY LOVES)...

SECOND -- the very seldomly used terms by JESUS, ...gehenna (on 4 total occasions) and hades (on 3 total occasions) in 3.5 YEARS of ministry, were HARDLY emphasized by Him and NEVER commanded by Him to be taught, regardless of the meanings (correctly or incorrectly translated) of these words in the ORIGINAL languages.

Nor are there any examples of EITHER of these terms, being TAUGHT by the Apostles, in their writings. Heck -- John and Paul, the 2 most prolific writers of the NT, did not use the term HELL at ALL!

THIRD -- "HELL" was not even proposed in the Old Testament Scriptures, nor was it proposed or prophesied by the OT prophets, or spoken of by YHVH God. The "issue" of "HELL". then by default, becomes a NEW TESTAMENT proposal. The NEW TESTAMENT was the testimony of the GRACE of GOD... and was not about the VENGENCE which was displayed in the OT over and again...]

JESUS CLEARLY noted that VENGENCE ("eye4eye") was NO LONGER "on the program", nor was it instructed by Him to be taught, rather... He proceeded to teach FORGIVENESS and GRACE which were the EMULATION of the PERFECT Father in Heaven -- Matt 5:48 -- was that which was to be exercised where "enemies" were concerned -- Matt 5:38-44

Where did Adam & Eve get warned of this place, LaSpino? Well the truth is that, ...they WERE NOT ever informed of such a DISPICABLE and NON EXISTENT "place"... by the GOD which claims to be NO RESPECTER (impartial) of persons...

and to answer this question:

So are you saying the subject is not to be discussed?

Absolutely NOT! And the only reason it is being discussed is the present deception that has surrounded the "works" of the MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- which THINK they "come in the name of JESUS"... when all the while their "wonderful works" are in truth... immersed in INIQUITY!

If Christianity were a HOUSE, "UNDIVIDED" (which it is NOT)... and DEDICATED to the communication of the commission it has been GIVEN -- Matt 28:19 -- Mark 16:15 -- then it would be busying itself with GOOD NEWS... not BAD.

Where did JESUS "say" ---> "go ye therefore and WARN them of HELL as you preach the GOSPEL to EVERY CREATURE"? -- Well, He did NOT say anything of the kind, so WHY do you do it?

And were THIS the case (that we were UNDIVIDED), then YOU and I would not be having this discussion, now would we?

The GOSPEL is named PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- and GOD is named LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and PEACE -- Rom 11:15 -- so I ask you, WHAT -- (1) GOOD NEWS -- (2) LOVE and -- (3) PEACE is found in the teaching of "HELL", brother LaSpino?


Unfortunately it is NOT the CASE with Christianity. Which brings the FORK TONGUED message to the WORLD which knows not CHRIST, first telling them such as --- "Hey GOD LOVES you with a LOVE so great, you cannot even BEGIN to understand it"... then "follows that" with such as: "but you BETTER be careful, for if you do not hear what I say about God, then He shall BURN YOU MERCILESSLY FOREVER!"

How TWO FACED can a proposal of GOD be, LaSpino?

If so, is there is no judgment on the wicked, no hell, and no lake of fire?

Let's take each of these and examine them...


WICKED --- ALL are "wicked" LaSpino! -- Rom 3:23 -- Rom 5:6 -- Do you ESTEEM yourself OTHER than "wicked" LaSpino -- 2 Cor 10:12 --

And because you so HIGHLY ESTEEM yourself (if you do), thereby are undeserving of what is due the UNGODLY/WICKED? -- for which CHRIST died? -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Rom 5:6-8 -- andwhich YOU (thinking yourself OTHER than "wicked/ungodly") readily CONDEMN?

The Apostle PAUL openly admitted that He was CHIEF of SINNERS, yet did not TEACH of HELL... are YOU more than he? Or at the very least, LESS "wicked/ungodly" than PAUL?


HELL -- Nothing but a measure which DEMENTED and CONTROLLING religious leaders have embraced and taught, via the MISTRANSLATION and MISLEADING of this DISPICABLE representation of LOVE, PEACE and GRACE. Let's look at the terms:

SHEOL -- Hebrew word for GRAVE. Mistranslated by the CHURCH and its THEOLOGIANS, to keep in line, the believers of God. Via proposing HYPOCRITICALLY that this term simultaneously means GRAVE and NEVER ENDING/NEVER BEGINNING/ETERNAL firepit of TORTURE. No! GRAVE is its meaning = PERIOD.

HADES -- Parallel word to SHEOL in Greek... Wherever SHEOL or HADES appears in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the entire bible), HADES is the UNIVERSAL WORD. Again ...meaning simultaneously, GRAVE and NEVER ENDING/NEVER BEGINNING/ETERNAL firepit? No. GRAVE is its meaning = PERIOD.

TARTARUS -- This word simply means the deepest region of HADES, not FIREPIT.

GEHENNA -- This was an ACTUAL place ("valley of the sons of ge-hinnom") which was PHYSICALLY just outside Jerusalem, and was a GARBAGE pit, where garbage was continually burned. It was also a place where DEAD criminals, and the bodies of DEAD (dishonored) JEWS were cast. It was place that indicated SHAME to the JEWISH community and religion. Its FIRES no longer burn there... matter of fact... it is a BEAUTIFUL VALLEY in this day.

JESUS taught that SHAME was the destiny of those who disobeyd holiness, not ETERNAL torment.


LAKE of FIRE (PUR)-- A symbolic terminology (so it is erroneous to apply the LITERAL to it), ...which SYMBOLIC entity, was NOT present in Scripture until LONG after JESUS had lived, been crucified, resurrected and ascended.

I firmly believe that this term symbolizes THIS REALM in which we live, and that Scripture bears it out.

In our search to find out its meaning, let's not forget that the LAKE of FIRE (includes) and BRIMSTONE... BRIMSTONE was and IS a PRESERVING and PURIFYING element (still is = sulphur)...

FIRST -- when seeking the meaning of "The LAKE of FIRE" (PUR)... let us consider;

FIRE (PUR) tries ALL MEN -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- Mark 9:49 --

FIRE (PUR) is that which tried the GOLD (His obedient example) of JESUS which took place IN THIS REALM -- Rev 3:18 --

FIRE (PUR) is that which tries the FAITH of MEN -- 1 Pet 1:7 -- IN THIS REALM...

In ALL of these cases, the FIRE noted takes place IN THIS REALM, ...and In NONE of these cases was the term FIRE (PUR) ...LITERAL!

HELL (GRAVE) and (its "partner") DEATH are cast into it -- Rev 20:14 -- to be DESTROYED... It is more than evident that the GRAVE and DEATH are pertinent and fully involved IN THIS REALM...

JESUS noted that the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, is NOW -- John 12:31 -- do you believe His WORD as spoken BY HIM, ...LaSpino?

The BOOKS which are opened in -- Rev 20:12 -- are OUR LIVES, which are BEFORE the throne of JUDGMENT NOW...

Our lives find the FIRE of JUDGEMENT NOW -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 and are IN the FIRE of JUDGMENT, NOW, as we LIVE, ...IN THIS REALM!

GOD does not wait until a life is complete to JUDGE it! Please!

Anyone that is or has a PARENT, knows... that JUDGMENT of behavior comes IN THE MOMENT when said behavior is negative.

Did your mother & father wait until you were a fully grown adult, to address your misbehaviors as a child, LaSpino? ...Well, GOD is the great PARENT of ALL... and deals with us NOW -- as His WRATH comes amidst the REAPING of what we have SOWN -- Gal 6:8 -- Psalm 90:9 -- Rom 1:20 -- and His WRATH is CORRECTIVE, ...NOT destructive.

The WRATH ...IS... not "will be"...

If so, what's there to fear from God? Nothing.

We are not to be AFRAID (fear/PHOBOS) of God... If this were so, then all He really is, ...is the GREATEST BULLY of ALL TIME...

LOVE ...which IS GOD -- 1 John 4:8 -- is about ...CASTING OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- NOT, imposing it upon us, and teaching us to EMBRACE it!

We are to respond to HIS LOVE, not THREATS...

Is it your experience that LOVE is accomplished and come into your life, via others which claim they LOVE you, and by THREATENING YOU into LOVING them? Please! Such is FOOLISHNESS.

LOVE is about setting the EXAMPLE (as did CHRIST), of FORGIVENESS in ALL INSTANCES... LOVE is about the prosperity and safety and security of its object, not ...THREATENING the object until it "submits"!

Get real!

It can be compared to no law, no police, no enforcement, no jail, no penalty for committing a crime. It would be a criminals environment. But there is a punishment for disobedience to God, and man, and this tread is about just that.

The LAW of God will not be broken without consequence. However, ETERNAL punishment levied against FINITE beings (which were brought into this realm, with God FULLY knowing what they would DO) is not REASONBLE, nor does such a punishment reflect any semblance of JUSTICE. Something on the order of NUKING a man for eating a grape at a grocery store (stealing) because he is starving and has no money!

GOD is not mocked... Our WORLD is FILLED with the SORROWS of JUDGMENT for disobedience to His COMMAND. This is not a "warm-up" for something MUCH WORSE! God did not set up MAN to LOSE... such thinking is foolish. Also, that He clearly says with INTENT that He is NOT WILLING (BOULEMA) ANY perish is an UNCHANGING position, which CANNOT be trumped by SINFUL beings -- 2 Pet 3:9

We shall REAP what we SOW... of the FLESH, IN the FLESH.. read it LaSpino -- Gal 6:8 -- CHRIST died for ALL -- John 1:29 -- and NONE of that sacrifice is as YOU (and others in deception) PROPOSE, ...shall be found in VAIN... surely NOT via your DISPICABLE proposal of the HORROR of HELL.

According to your thinking... what HITLER did was righteous... as He did what YOU propose GOD shall do... BURN men MERCILESSLY, without COMPASSION... I say ...NAH!

That and your proposal and teaching of HELL are as FAR from REASON, TRUTH, LOVE, GRACE, FORGIVENESS & MERCY as could possiby be.

Misrepresenting LOVE, with your DIRE and UNJUSTIFIED sinful condemnations which the Apostle JAMES noted "Ought NOT so to BE" -- James 3:10 -- BITTER and TAINTED water flowing from your fountain, which falsely claims itself to be "sweet"...

What a pity... thinking to WARN people of HELL...

Well... I tell you, that now it is YOU which has been warned! Best for you to reconsider your TAINTED and DECIEVED position.


Peace...


...willieH

 

[awakeningaletheia]

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi Awakenigaletheia!

You go WillieH! That is one of the best posts I have ever read on an internet forum. You pretty much summed everything I have studied and believe. Good job! It truly is the GOOD NEWS huh?

Adding onto that, did you know that the most repeated command in Scripture is "Fear not"? Yet today our whole message revolves around scare tactics and hate speech.

"Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people!"(Luke 2:10)

Amen. Thank you WillieH for articulating everything so succinctly.

Thank you so much for your kind words. Nice to see others which are dedicating themselves to personal study of the WORD, and thereby finding the true LIGHT within them, which IS the GOOD NEWS! I love the Scripture you noted above, and it blesses my heart to have read it this day in your post.

And look forward to celebrating with you, in the KINGDOM, that which we both know to be true!

In the end, those who hold such a miserable vision of God will be in for a wonderful surprise when it turns out that ALL are saved by JESUS, due to His PERFECT WORK for ALL... which is certainly THE BEST NEWS!

Peace be unto you...


...willieH

 

[Hillsage]

We are not to be AFRAID (fear/PHOBOS) of God... If this were so, then all He really is, ...is the GREATEST BULLY of ALL TIME...

I agree with awakeningaletheia that it was a very well written post, but I do have a question for you concerning the above quote. What do you do with scriptures like the following?

2Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear/phobos of God.

EPH 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear/phobos of God.

REV 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear/phobeo God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[awakeningaletheia]

Let us consider the severity and kindness of God.

 

[Hillsage]

There is no fear/phobos in love, but perfect love casts out fear/phobos. (1 John 4:18)

It is true that the fear of the Lord is a good thing. Yet, if we look at the Scriptures we realize that under the new covenant we are no longer to know God based on fear, but love.

But the 3 scriptures I quoted were from the NT ("new covenant").

Yes fear serves its purpose, yet it is eventually cast out by love.

I agree with "eventually" but I question the rationale of 'no fear of God' for the present. I say that based not just upon the three NT scriptures I quoted, but because there are even more that I didn't post. I just quoted three for discussion sake.

John in the book of Revelation sees Jesus glorified and falls down trembling, immediately we hear the words "Fear not". We have not been given a Spirit of timidity, but of power, love, and a sound-mind. Indeed as Paul says

I like the teaching of Joyce Meyer concerning "Fear not". She teaches that we will have fear but we are not to be motivated to respond to things because of 'fear' but instead respond to things in 'faith'.

And when Timothy speaks of us "not been given a spirit of fear" I don't think he's talking about never having fear. God built in to our very bodies the 'fight or flight' mechanism, which is activated by fear, to deal with situations. If I step out into the street as a car came charging around the corner right at me, my fear will allow me to jump higher run faster ect. than normal. And in that situation fear is a good thing. But if I refuse to ever go near a street again because of 'fear' then I have a 'spirit of fear' and need deliverance.

To have a 'fear of God's judgments in my life' would be a 'fear of God' that is a 'good fear' IMO.

IOW when I read the scripture that says "God scourges every son whom he loves" I must assume that he isn't just beating me like a 'red headed stepchild' because 'I am'. He is scourging me because I have done something wrong and His love demands a spanking. I hope you see where I'm coming from and I hope this makes sense. Thoughts?

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi Hillsage...

I agree with awakeningaletheia that it was a very well written post, but I do have a question for you concerning the above quote. What do you do with scriptures like the following?

2Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear/phobos of God.

EPH 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear/phobos of God.

REV 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear/phobeo God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Well, to be honest, in my studies, I have indeed, considered these above Scriptures...

Aside from the CLEAR STATEMENT made in -- 1 John 4:18 -- also, we find the WITNESS of the PARAMETERS of DIVINE LOVE as noted in -- 1 Cor 13:4-8 -- which do NOT note or describe any element of FEAR within those noted parameters...

Accordingly the THREATENING position which FEAR (which has torment) engages in its process is thereby ABSENT in LOVE which is made PERFECT...

IOW -- If indeed LOVE "works" as noted in the description of AGAPE LOVE in -- 1 Cor 13:4-8... then FEAR is absent in that LOVE. For where PERFECT LOVE abides, ...FEAR is absent and CAST OUT...

For when PERFECT LOVE is embraced, then FEAR is become unnecessary, as RIGHTEOUSNESS is EMBRACED in its stead.

That Scripture cannot be CONTRARY one to another, if we have a vision of seeming "CONTRADICTION", then it follows suit that the "contradiction" is within our perception of the information provided by YHVH... who UNCHANGINGLY -- Mal 3:6 -- LOVES the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- and is without an agenda to condemn it.

The best I have been able to surmise (to date), is that the WRATH which is come against ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and UNGODLINESS of men -- Rom 1:18 -- and which is found present throughout our days on earth -- Psalm 90:9 -- demands that we RESPECT the consequences due of UNGODLY behavior.

Such as (to name just a few): ...CANCER (which I battle with as we speak), AIDS, NATURAL DISASTERS, Starvation, and the myriad list of SORROWS which are present and available upon the Earth... which are able to (at any moment), affect any and ALL of us, during our stay within this realm.

We SHALL REAP what we SOW... either CORRUPTION (death promoting results), or LIFE (life promoting results), in both cases the WORD AIONIOS is applied (a derivitive of AION which is a time oriented term)... which cannot be "ETERNAL"... as YHVH who IS eternal, has invited us to REASON with Him... yet has LEFT OUT of our experience, the ability to KNOW and EXPLAIN, ...how ANYTHING, including YHVH, has NO BEGINNING... which is part (half) of the definition of ETERNAL.

The WORD (JESUS) is noted to be a PRIEST after the order of MELCHISIDEC... which is WITHOUT BEGINNING of DAYS, or END of LIFE --- Heb 5:6 -- Heb 7:3 -- the words "FOR-EVER" are not the emphasis here, as it is AION which is a time oriented term meaning "AGE"... rather the EMPHASIS is that MELCHISIDEC (nor JESUS ...which is The WORD of YHVH manifest IN MAN = His IMAGE) did not have BEGINNING of DAYS, nor END of LIFE...

The WORD is the BEGINNING and END of all things which HAVE "beginnings and ends"... but the WORD is without these limitations... it is EMERGENTdirectly from the MOUTH of YHVH which is without Beginning or End -- Isaiah 55:11

GOD LOVES us, ...but IS NOT MOCKED -- Gal 3:7-8 -- by us... (emphasis on IS ...for we ARE JUDGED and REAP what we SOW, NOW!)

IOW, His LAW of moral standard, will NOT be "shoved aside" due to the fact He LOVES us...

Just as a PARENT, though he/she may dearly LOVE (even unto the sacrifice of DEATH), their CHILD...

Said PARENT shall not "set aside" or "ignore" negative behaviors BECAUSE of their LOVE for the CHILD.

That within the CORRECTIVE process... a bit of PAIN may be applied -- Prov 13:24 -- Heb 12:6-8 -- in order to "right the ship" whose pathway has gone astray, is part of the WORK of the DIVINE and of LOVE.

This "chastening" does not remove the LOVE of the PARENT in any way, nor is intended to THREATEN the child... rather, is set in place as a guiding measure to create HARMONY establishing behaviors.

GOD nor any LOVING parent on earth, SEEKS to cause His child to FEAR Him... He SEEKS, ...that the child EMBRACE the ways of righteousness, that "chastening" is rendered unnecessary via the HEARING (by the child) of the DOINGS found upon pathway of rightouteousness...



Hey -- I do not have all the answers bro... but as I see it, REASON must be involved in all that I consider as an "answer" -- Isaiah 1:18 -- otherwise... the search for the answer (which INCLUDES REASON), must continue.

To me, "chastening" is that which we are to FEAR, not the PARENT which LOVES us, and indeed desires within that LOVE for us, that "chastening" becomes MINIMAL within the experience of the child.

I also believe that because ALL have SINNED... then a degree of "chastening" shall eventually (within our individual course) be due to ALL.

SUFFERING and DEATH are PART of the PROCESSING of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:9-10 -- and therefore...

NO ONE which will BECOME "PERFECT", can avoid that part of the molding process which CHRIST endured (suffering & death), ...He being that IMAGE ...unto which we are ALL MADE -- Gen 1:27 -- Rom 9:16-25

Some in life learn to LIVE in harmony with the standards of HARMONY, and therefore are never (or rarely) chastened by those standards... (Hey, I've got a speeding ticket or two in my life! :o)

Some don't respect the LAWS (which are set in place for harmonious living of LIFE)... which NECESSITATES said offenders to the PENAL systems worldwide...

The LAW (a parent, or GOD) does not THREATEN one... it (or a parent, or GOD) stands as a measure in place which affords HARMONY unto ALL.

HOWEVER, when (and IF) one might think oneself as not subject to the LAW (or parent, or GOD), then the LAW (0r parent, or GOD) certainly becomes in OPPOSITION to that one within their INHARMONIOUS decisions.

That's the best I can do for now... Hope it answers for you, how I see the matter...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Hillsage]

willieH: Hi Hillsage...
Hello to you too Willie

That Scripture cannot be CONTRARY one to another, if we have a vision of seeming "CONTRADICTION", then it follows suit that the "contradiction" is within our perception

"Perception" has its place for sure, but so also does 'application'. And I am still, in spite of your thoughtful post , wondering what we might be missing...in both our views. I appreciate your response and will reread it again. I hope that you are victorious in your fight with the "cancer" battle.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi Hillsage...

But the 3 scriptures I quoted were from the NT ("new covenant").

I agree with "eventually" but I question the rationale of 'no fear of God' for the present. I say that based not just upon the three NT scriptures I quoted, but because there are even more that I didn't post. I just quoted three for discussion sake.

That is fine with me bro... but no matter HOW MANY Scriptures you post, either GOD is teaching us EMBRACE and MAINTAIN FEAR of Him, or He is NOT. He does not teach a fork-tongued, double-minded message.

Having had the experience of 66 years on earth, I say that of that experience, that in the process of TRUE LOVE... the OBJECT of LOVE is never THREATENED, rather informed that consequence is afoot for OPPOSING LOVE.

IOW... I did not THREATEN my wife as I courted her... until SHE became FEARFUL enough, succumbed to my THREATS, and then in that submission "fell in LOVE" with me...

Nor did I THREATEN my children or grandchildren until they submitted, and thereby GAINED their LOVE! That to me, is ridiculous and UNREASONABLE.

I like the teaching of Joyce Meyer concerning "Fear not". She teaches that we will have fear but we are not to be motivated to respond to things because of 'fear' but instead respond to things in 'faith'.

I have agreement with this to a degree... However...

I believe that FAITH is not a vehicle for FEAR to ride in. It is a vehicle which transports us into the realm of LOVE... which gives us CONFIDENCE in GOD and His desire to SHARE His LOVE, rather than instills in us that His primary mission is of the "MY WAY or the HIGHWAY" variety, by use of the instrument of FEAR ...beating us into eventual submission. Nah!

WHERE there is PEACE... FEAR is absent.

The continuing suggestion of the positions of the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:11 -- GOSPEL of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- and INSTRUCTION of PEACE -- 1 Thess 1:2 -- Rom 12:18 -- Eph 1:2 -- Gal 3:3 -- is evident throughout the NT, as the WAY of GOD -- John 14:6

As I see it presently, no amount of PHYSICAL mechanisms in place (such as adrenalin flow, which is produced by DREAD), verify that FEAR is something that we shall maintain in Eternity. If something is not maintained and accompanying us in Eternity, then indeed, ...it IS BEING DISCARDED in this life.

LOVE is a SPIRITUAL entity. And the PROCESS of LOVE is to RID us of FEAR, and the REASONING for this is -- 1 John 4:18 -- because FEAR (PHOBOS) HAS TORMENT.

This also SAYS that God is about ridding us of TORMENT as well, as this PROCESS is completed. Which is the building and molding of the majesty of LOVE within us FOREVER. Certainly NOT the building in us, of "good" FEAR (PHOBOS) ...which has TORMENT.

Why would GOD be CASTING OUT "torment" in one statement, ...yet insisting we EMBRACE it elsewhere? That just does not make any REASONABLE sense to me.

And when Timothy speaks of us "not been given a spirit of fear" I don't think he's talking about never having fear. God built in to our very bodies the 'fight or flight' mechanism, which is activated by fear, to deal with situations. If I step out into the street as a car came charging around the corner right at me, my fear will allow me to jump higher run faster ect. than normal. And in that situation fear is a good thing. But if I refuse to ever go near a street again because of 'fear' then I have a 'spirit of fear' and need deliverance.

No offense bro, but... I find it hard to see how you can have such a double vision of this?

Either you HAVE been given a SPIRIT of FEAR (PHOBOS) because it is "good" for you... or, ...you have "not been given a spirit of fear" ...because GOD is CASTING IT OUT of you, as FEAR (PHOBOS) has NO PART in PERFECT LOVE. One or the other.

Either GOD wishes us to FEAR (PHOBOS) Him (which FEAR carries TORMENT), or He is about CASTING FEAR/TORMENT - OUT of our experience in the processing of PERFECT LOVE...

One or the other. To insist BOTH are on His agenda, only insists that He is double minded where FEAR is concerned.

Even the LAWS of (SINFUL) man, aspire to RELIEVE FEAR and in doing so INSPIRE SAFETY... which is what SPEED LIMTS (for instance) are about... Giving both the pedestrian and the driver an opportunity to maintain SAFETY and REMOVE FEAR! Think about it.

It is why LAWS which are in place, are come against MURDER, STEALING, DRUG TRAFFICKING, etc... that society in general might gain a confidence of SAFETY, that those IN CHARGE (governing such as does GOD) endeavor to REMOVE those things which IMPOSE FEAR upon the citizens of the land.

Thereby IMPOSING the FEAR of CONSEQUENCE upon the proponents of FEAR, not the citizens that are LAW ABIDING! = REAPING / SOWING, eh?

To have a 'fear of God's judgments in my life' would be a 'fear of God' that is a 'good fear' IMO.

As I have said previously, you have the right to your observations, and I do not aspire to change them... however, IF PERFECT LOVE (GOD) is about CASTING OUT FEAR (PHOBOS)... then wherein is "GOOD FEAR" (PHOBOS)? To me, this is contradictory thinking.

IOW when I read the scripture that says "God scourges every son whom he loves" I must assume that he isn't just beating me like a 'red headed stepchild' because 'I am'. He is scourging me because I have done something wrong and His love demands a spanking. I hope you see where I'm coming from and I hope this makes sense. Thoughts?

I think what you just said above, ...says pretty much what my answer said to you bro.

This verse below further explains my observation [bracketed comments are mine]:

Isaiah 26:9 --- With my soul have I desired thee IN the NIGHT [DARKNESS of this REALM] yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee early... WHEN the JUDGMENTS of GOD [which is NOW] are IN the earth [DUST = men], ...the INHABITANTS of the WORLD [which are DUST], ...WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS---[are the consequences of those "NOW" judgments]

The chastisement of GOD, just as with any LOVING PARENT on earth is not INTENDED to impose FEAR... rather is INTENDED to impose the RIGHTFUL RESPECT for the position that the PARENT occupies.

That CONSEQUENCE contains an element of FEAR, is without doubt.

When you KNOW, "your mother" told you NOT to eat a cookie before dinner, and you DO NOT adhere to her instruction, and eat one anyway, ...then you must FACE the RIGHTFUL consequence of your decision.

This does not mean that NOW, you are and WILL BE, ...AFRAID/FEARFUL of your mother, ...but surely means that you shall DREAD the CONSEQUENCES of your own actions which will be IMMEDIATELY administered to you, when they OPPOSE her COMMANDS... which "administration, does not take place at the end of your childhood, ...rather they are administered, DURING IT.

Until someone (anyone) suggests with REASON... another observation, I will stay the course of my present one... which notes that the process of LOVE as it molds us toward its PERFECTION, contains the CASTING OUT of "PHOBOS", and NOT the EMBRACING of it.

REASON notes that it cannot be both ways. That would be like suggesting that STEALING is WRONG, ...but saying elsewhere that... it is OKAY TO STEAL... or maybe even elsewhere, there are instances where STEALING is "GOOD"

Though I respect your cautions, ...it remains my belief that we cannot be instructed by LOVE to embrace FEAR, while He is telling us that His LOVE is CASTING it out. That is just too UNREASONABLE as I see it.

And certainly, ...you are more than welcome to continue to search this matter... If you come up with something new, PLEASE by all means let me know... as I seek CORRECTION of anything that might be amiss in my observations of the WORD...

Again, nice talkin wit-cha...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[michaelmc]

Amen!