scriptures ignored by Trinitarians.

[Catherineanne]

2
1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;

there is one mediator between god and man, the MAN CHRIST JESUS.

does man and god mean the same thing to christians just as son of god and god mean the same thing, that is according to you?

Now you are just being silly.

The Lord is both fully man and fully God. Therefore you can say the man Christ Jesus, perfectly happily, and yet he is still God.

Can anyone call you your mother's son, and denote thereby that you are not your father's son? Neither can they with the Lord.

 

[Catherineanne]

so is son of Mary synonymous with Mary?

No. But neither is the Lord the son of God in a physical sense, but in a spiritual one.

The Lord is not the son of God in the same way as any other man is the son of his fathers. This is not a human relationship, in other words, and it does not denote what a human father:son relationship denotes.

Christ and God are co-eternal with the Spirit; one is not born of the other. Rather Christ is conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

 

[2ducklow]

The Lord is both fully man and fully God. Therefore you can say the man Christ Jesus, perfectly happily, and yet he is still God.

.

so some undefined Jesus is both the physical man Jesus, and at the same time he is also the ominpresent spirit YHWH, according to you, correct? Or do you mean the man Jesus is the omnipresent spirit YHWH? which would mean a physical man is a spirit. Or is Jesus some other god besides the omipresent spirit YHWH?

 

[2ducklow]

No. But neither is the Lord the son of God in a physical sense, but in a spritual one.

The Lord is not the son of God in the same way as any other man is the son of his fathers. This is not a human relationship, in other words, and it does not denote what a human father:son relationship denotes.

Christ and God are co-eternal with the Spirit; one is not born of the other. Rather Christ is conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

God begat Jesus.


(Rotherham) Matthew 1:20 But, when, these things, he had pondered, lo! a messenger of the Lord, by dream, appeared to him, saying,--Joseph, son of David! do not fear to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for, that which, in her, hath been begotten, is of [the], Holy, Spirit.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Rotherham) 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that, Jesus, is the Christ, of God, hath been born: and, whosoever loveth him that begat, loveth him that hath been begotten of him.

I think you can only say that Jesus is born of Mary, since he came out of mary's womb, and of course god doesn't have a womb. i might be wrong on this though, but i didn't find any verses that specifically state that Jesus is born of God.

 

[Warrior Poet]

YOu very cleverly avoided explaining how Jesus can be god now since the bible calls him a man after his death. saying Jesus is god makes 2 gods out of this scripture. for it means that there is one god between god and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

so if Jesus is god then the verse means

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, one god also between God and men, himself man, Christ god,

Clever? You give me to much credit.
But the author wrote mediator, or the equivalent of depending on translations. (arbitrator etc.)

What exactly gave Jesus his relevance, that he was Jesus, or that he was the Christ?
In your rewrite your emphasis is on Jesus = God. What does Christ equal? It seems you imply that Christ=Christ(?)
The importance is that he is the Christ, Jesus Christ (Not separate, but together) is the equivalent of God, in our understanding.

Is the mediator between god and man a man or is he god? which is it?

Not much of a mediator if he was only one or the other.
What exactly is this mediator suppose to accomplish if He is ONLY one or the other?
To mediate between man and God, doesn't he have to be:
neither of the two(not man or God, yet fully knowledgeable of both), or somehow fully both(man and God)?

How can he only be fully one, and remain unbiased?

(Rotherham) Galatians 1:12 For neither, from man, did I accept it, nor was taught [it],--but through a revealing of Jesus Christ.

God revealed Jesus christ to Paul.

In which sense? In the vision Paul has on the road it was Jesus who came to Paul, He specifically tells Paul this.
Unless you are calling Jesus God.. you wouldn't. *Gasp*?

Acts 9:5
5And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

Paul was fully aware of who Jesus, the man himself, was, yet denied his divinity. It's important to note the Paul never sees Jesus here. It would have been ineffective for the Lord to call Himself Christ, or God in this situation. Paul believed in the Christ and God because they were the foundation to his faith. But he did not believe Jesus to be the Christ. If you persecute the Christ you are persecuting God, Jesus was the Christ.

THe revealing of Jesus christ to Paul came from god through the scriptures as it does to all of us. this sacred secret of Jesus christ was kept secret in age-past times because if the devil had known that christ would be in all of us he never would have crucified the Lord of glory.

How so? Doesn't Acts 9 explain why Pauls conversion was nothing like ours? God revealed the Christ to Paul through Scripture, Jesus revealed himself to Paul by name. Jesus never says to Paul he is the Christ in Acts 9. Hence the revelation.

We have the luxury of the Bible and the Early Christian Church history, I cant see that as the same thing.


Warrior Poet

 

[Catherineanne]

so some undefined Jesus is both the physical man Jesus, and at the same time he is also the ominpresent spirit YHWH, according to you, correct? Or do you mean the man Jesus is the omnipresent spirit YHWH? which would mean a physical man is a spirit. Or is Jesus some other god besides the omipresent spirit YHWH?

The Lord Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

There is only one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This God is eternal; he who always was, is now, and who is to come.

Make of that what you will; I don't have time to unravel the confusion which is your post.

 

[Catherineanne]

God begat Jesus.

From a temporal perspective, yes. But God is not governed by time, nor within time. God is outside time, and eternal; Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Meanwhile, I did not say Christ is not described as begotten of God. What I said is that this does not denote the same kind of relationship as begotten of man. God does not have a son in the same way as we have sons. Look again at what I said:

The Lord is not the son of God in the same way as any other man is the son of his fathers. This is not a human relationship, in other words, and it does not denote what a human father:son relationship denotes.

 

[2ducklow]

From a temporal perspective, yes. But God is not governed by time, nor within time. God is outside time, and eternal; Father, Son and Holy Ghost.



Meanwhile, I did not say Christ is not described as begotten of God. What I said is that this does not denote the same kind of relationship as begotten of man. God does not have a son in the same way as we have sons. Look again at what I said:

I take begat literally, you take it in some kind of figurative sense.

 

[2ducklow]

Clever? You give me to much credit.
But the author wrote mediator, or the equivalent of depending on translations. (arbitrator etc.)

What exactly gave Jesus his relevance, that he was Jesus, or that he was the Christ?
In your rewrite your emphasis is on Jesus = God. What does Christ equal? It seems you imply that Christ=Christ(?)
The importance is that he is the Christ, Jesus Christ (Not separate, but together) is the equivalent of God, in our understanding.

christ just means the annointed one. you are the one saying that Jesus is god,I just substituted god for christ since you say they are equivalent. And yes christ equals christ, but also Jesus = Jesus, not god.

to me, the fact that Jesus is now a man precludes him from being the ominipresent spirit who is the one and only true god, who is YHWH aka God the Father.

Not much of a mediator if he was only one or the other.
What exactly is this mediator suppose to accomplish if He is ONLY one or the other?
To mediate between man and God, doesn't he have to be:
neither of the two(not man or God, yet fully knowledgeable of both), or somehow fully both(man and God)?

the verse simply says that the man christ Jesus is our mediator between us and god, it doesn't say that a god and man Christ jesus is a mediator between god and us. that is your addition to the verse in gal. that states only that the man christ jesus is our mediator.

How can he only be fully one, and remain unbiased?

because he ubnlike any other man ever, is sinless. Being biased is a sin.

In which sense? In the vision Paul has on the road it was Jesus who came to Paul, He specifically tells Paul this.
Unless you are calling Jesus God.. you wouldn't. *Gasp*?

Acts 9:5
5And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

Paul was fully aware of who Jesus, the man himself, was, yet denied his divinity. It's important to note the Paul never sees Jesus here. It would have been ineffective for the Lord to call Himself Christ, or God in this situation. Paul believed in the Christ and God because they were the foundation to his faith. But he did not believe Jesus to be the Christ. If you persecute the Christ you are persecuting God, Jesus was the Christ.

Paul was well versed in the scriptures, therefore it would be no difficulty for God to illuminate those scriptures relevant to identifying christ. Faith c omes by the word of God, I believe more was going on than just Jesus appeared to him on the road to damascus. god had to have been working on the heart of paul through the scirptures as he does many, it culminated with the appearance of Jesus to him.

how jesus appeared is this way. The spirit of god conveyed him to paul.

1 Peter 3:18-19 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,


Christ went in the spirit of God and appeared to Paul, just as he did in hell to those who fell away from following noah.



How so? Doesn't Acts 9 explain why Pauls conversion was nothing like ours? God revealed the Christ to Paul through Scripture, Jesus revealed himself to Paul by name. Jesus never says to Paul he is the Christ in Acts 9. Hence the revelation.

We have the luxury of the Bible and the Early Christian Church history, I cant see that as the same thing.


Warrior Poet[/quote]

 

[2ducklow]

The Lord Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

There is only one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This God is eternal; he who always was, is now, and who is to come.

Make of that what you will; I don't have time to unravel the confusion which is your post.

is Jesus YHWH or not?

 

[hybrid]

I think you can only say that Jesus is born of Mary, since he came out of mary's womb, and of course god doesn't have a womb. i might be wrong on this though, but i didn't find any verses that specifically state that Jesus is born of God.

how could you? you would even go extra length to deny it. by concocting ridiculous stories like god manufactured a human male sperm for mary to conceive. destroying the very idea of "VIRGIN BIRTH" in the process.


his divine sonship is a given.
if there is anything harder to prove is to the fact that jesus is a normal your everyday kind human being.

 

[2ducklow]

^

 

[k2svpete]

I call troll.

 

[2ducklow]

I call troll.

what can I say?

 

[hybrid]

what can I say?

if jesus is just a man ..

1. when the bible said that all men have sinned, is jesus included among the "all men?

2, when jesus was described as an exact image of god in collosian, are all men included in the description?

 

[2ducklow]

if jesus is just a man ..

1. when the bible said that all men have sinned, is jesus included among the "all men?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Obviously the context of romans 5:12 is that all Adam's descendants sinned.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

the same passage that says all have sinned as a result of tthe deeds of one man also says ''the man christ Jesus"". God's word says Jesus is a man and god's word says all adam's desencdant's have sinned. I make of it that Jesus didn't inherit the sin nature because god was his father and not a man. but regardless it is a fact that scripture explicitly calls Jesus in no uncertain terms "a man".

Scripture says god begat Jesus, not Joesph begat Jesus. scripture says flesh is born of flesh and spirit is born of spirit, therefore the only way God, who is spirit, can begat flesh is to create flesh (human male seed) to begat flesh with it. Jer 31.22 bears this out tyhat god created a new thing after the 7 days of creation.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

God created new human male seed so that a woman (mary ) could go around or compass a man to conceive.

2, when jesus was described as an exact image of god in collosian, are all men included in the description?

I am almost an exact physical image of my father, does that mean that all men are the image of my father? Saying one person is in the image of someone else in no way means everyone is in that image.

Jesus is in the image of God not in the sense that he is a spirit looking just like God, but in the sense that he has fully imbibed all of God's character and attributes. He has been totally made in every moral way possible just like his Father. He always pleased his father always grew in grace and favor with God, unlike the rest of humanity. however one day , there will be a people who will be in the image of Jesus who is in the image of god, but it hasn't happened yet.

Ephesians 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

or

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

When Jesus appears it will be to those who are like him and see him as he is.

 

[redcliffesalvo]

Argument Jesus calls the Father, “the only true God,” therefore Jesus cannot be God.

Answer

This is an interesting argument often raised. This argument, as we will see, is self-defeating. This argument refers to Jesus’ words to the Father in John 17:3, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Critics argue that the Father cannot be the “only true God” if Jesus and the Holy Spirit can also claim to be God. The thinking is illogical. First, Jesus’ words do not exclude the Son and Holy Spirit from also being the only true God. They DO exclude Jesus and the Holy Spirit from being separate gods. In other words, if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus cannot also be a true God and the Holy Spirit cannot also be a true God (distinguishing them as separate gods rather than simply separate persons). If we understand the true nature of the Trinity, we can acknowledge that the Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal persons that comprise the one true God, and John 17:3 does not counter that. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe that Jesus is a separate god, and Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit is yet another god. In the New World Translation, John 1:1 states, “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god” (emphasis added). Mormonism’s founding prophet taught, “In the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.”[2] Now if someone wants to claim that this verse teaches that the Father alone is the only true God, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit must be false gods. If that is true, the teachings of the LDS prophets, the New World Translation and others must be wrong.

 

[2ducklow]

Argument Jesus calls the Father, “the only true God,” therefore Jesus cannot be God.

Answer

This is an interesting argument often raised. This argument, as we will see, is self-defeating. This argument refers to Jesus’ words to the Father in John 17:3, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Critics argue that the Father cannot be the “only true God” if Jesus and the Holy Spirit can also claim to be God. The thinking is illogical. First, Jesus’ words do not exclude the Son and Holy Spirit from also being the only true God. They DO exclude Jesus and the Holy Spirit from being separate gods. In other words, if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus cannot also be a true God and the Holy Spirit cannot also be a true God (distinguishing them as separate gods rather than simply separate persons).

The trinitarian argument is that the persons of God are not seperate but that they are distinct. So you have it backwards. separate and distinct are synonyms anyway so it's just a contradiction to say they are distinct but not separate. what you are saying here is if you call them persons of god then they are separate but if you call each one god then they are not separate. That's what you are saying says to me anyway. God the father is separate from god the son if you call him a person of god, but if you call god the father god he isn't separate from god the son.

Distinct
Dis*tinct"\, a. [L. distinctus, p. p. of distinguere: cf. F. distinct. See Distinguish.]
1. Distinguished; having the difference marked; separated by a visible sign; marked out; specified. [Obs.]
Wherever thus created -- for no place Is yet distinct by name. --Milton.
2. Marked; variegated. [Obs.]
The which [place] was dight With divers flowers distinct with rare delight. --Spenser.
3. Separate in place; not conjunct; not united by growth or otherwise; -- with from.
The intention was that the two armies which marched out together should afterward be distinct. --Clarendon.
4. Not identical; different; individual.
To offend, and judge, are distinct offices. --Shak.
5. So separated as not to be confounded with any other thing; not liable to be misunderstood; not confused; well-defined; clear; as, we have a distinct or indistinct view of a prospect.
Relation more particular and distinct. --Milton.
Syn: Separate; unconnected; disjoined; different; clear; plain; conspicuous; obvious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/distinct
separate and distinct are synonyms.



God the Father, according to scripture is the one and only true God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

God the Father is the one and only true god and no one else is not Jesus not anyone else, that is logical, it is illogical to you because you are accepting that 3 is one is logical and therefore one is one is illogical in your realm. Your whole argument that god the father isn't the one and only true god and it is illogical to say so is because you believe 3 is one. 3 is one is illogical, therefore your acceptance of illogic as logic forces you to accept logic as illogic.

 

[Zebra1552]

Let's make a list of scriptures trinitarians ignore, and have to ignore to keep their doctrine, I can think of 2 biggies that universally get ignored by trinitarians.

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

so much of the book of John is used by trinitarians to prove that Jesus is god, yet John says he wrote the book to prove that Jesus is the son of god and the christ.

Yes, He is the Son of God... thus a member of the Trinity. I fail to see how this is problematic.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't trinitarian theology state that God is 'One God, three persons'?

Seldom do trinitarians deal with the fact that Jesus and the father are one the same way we the church are one, because it destroys their belief that "I and my father are one" means Jesus and the father are god.

It doesn't destroy anything if you have a proper understand of how we hold the Trinity.

anyboy else got some scriptures they feel trinitarians will not deal with? please add them. And trinitarians now is your chance to deal with very troubling scriptures for you.

Neither of your verses are troubling unless you look at them exclusively, and doing that is even more intellectually dishonest than even ignoring them in the first place.

 

[2ducklow]

Yes, He is the Son of God... thus a member of the Trinity. I fail to see how this is problematic.

] Because God stated through John that he wrote the book of John to prove that Jesus is the son of god, he didn't write it to prove that Jesus is god. therefore john 20.28 proves that Jesus is the son of god, and not god. therefore, john chapter one proves that Jesus is the son of god. it doesn't prove that Jesus is god as trinitarians claim those verses do.IF it did then John would have said under the inspiration of the holy spirit that he worte the book of john so that we might know that Jesus is god, but he didn't, he wrote it to show us that Jesus is the son of god.

Your argument that Jesus is god because he is the son of god results in two gods for I presume you are of the opinion that god who is spirit begat flesh, but scripture says flesh is born of flesh and spirit is born of spirit. spirit doesn't begat flesh. so your doctrine contradicts scriptuire in having spirit begat flesh, and calling it incarnation also denys the meaning of begat. Begat doesn't mean incarnation. your doctrine has more holes in it than a collander.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't trinitarian theology state that God is 'One God, three persons'?

it takes different versions depending upon the speaker, some say 'these three are one" some say, 'three are in one,' some say as you do "three persons, one god." the point is you have 3 beings ( a person is a being despite trinitarian denials.) that are one being (god is a spirit being). 3 beings are one being is a contradiction. therefore your doctrine is a contradiction, as everyone except trinitarians plainly know.

It doesn't destroy anything if you have a proper understand of how we hold the Trinity.


Neither of your verses are troubling unless you look at them exclusively, and doing that is even more intellectually dishonest than even ignoring them in the first place.

then explain it. how is Jesus god because of "I and my father are one' when Jesus said the church is one the same way he and his father are one. you haven't explained it,.