Scriptures Don't Support Gay Arguments

[BAFRIEND]

All I can add, is that it is no surprise to me that people who are so confused by nature and sexuality that they cannot even figure out who they should by attracted to, or the difference between right and wrong, that they would use false logic and arguments to defend their positions.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Maybe because, if you don't speculate and try to take it word for word, it loses meaning. Talk about picking and choosing. Besides, "use of women". Literally interpreting that makes us seem like objects. I'm offended.[/SIZE]

I'm sure God really cares that you are offended by his Word. That is the KJV, the Greek does not read exactly like that, but I guess you just gotta have something in God's word to argue with.

And I'm not picking and choosing, I replied to one post, if you like I can exegete the entire chapter directly from the Greek.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Listen, here is yet ANOTHER gay thread started by the same individuals that want to go to all other gay threads and spew. Nothing new..just the same blah blah blah....

What it boils down to is the way that you CHOSE to practice your faith. 95% of US citizens call themselves "christians"..yet fewer than 35% practice any sort of religious belief. As a christian..you practice your faith either one of two ways.

1 - The God of "rapture". You believe that the second coming will resuce and save SOME people but destroy most of humankind. You have your list of requirements that must be met in order to be a "true" Christian and be "saved". You have a "bad news" way of viewing Christ..there will be a last judgement, either at the end of our lives or at the end of history and you better be ready or you're in deep trouble. This would be Christianity of threat...anxiety...and self preservation.

2 - The God of "love and justice"...THE MOST FREQUENT REFERENCE IN THE BIBLE!!! A nice God of compassion and social justice. God's acceptance of us is unconditional, and not dependent upon something we believe or must do, or some test of requirements. Those that have a "good news" view where God has invited us into a new life HERE AND NOW, transforms us personally. This version is the of all transformed people and a transformed earth with the glory of God.

What sort of Christian are you? Is Christianity about requirements such as "here is what you must do to be saved"? or is Christianity about relationship and transformation such as "here is the path to follow"? Both involve imperatives...but one is a threat...the other is an invitation.

Some find they must make God out to a "monarchial model"...meaning you have to express your belief in God through legal language..primarily concerned with personal virtue, or as someone you must measure up to in order to meet his requirements. A God of heaven and a God of Hell. To do this, you see God as "lawgiver and judge", meaning the God of works. Keeping in mind the entire Protestant Reformation was born out of their rejection for "works" but for "grace"..God's acceptance of us, thus, is uncondtional..and NOT dependent on what we do or say. If you begin to say, God accepts us "IF"....then you have now put conditions on his grace, thus, no longer making it grace. So, given that...is God's basis for our life with him based on laws or grace? Requirements and rewards? or Relationships and transformations..here and now??? Grace affirms the latter.

 

[MercyBurst]

Listen, here is yet ANOTHER gay thread started by the same individuals that want to go to all other gay threads and spew. Nothing new..just the same blah blah blah....

Well this IS a debate forum, and the subject IS on topic.

Are you upset because you don't have any counterpoints to the OP?

So tell us, is gay sex sin or not?

If you tell us it IS sin, then we have no debate. If you tell us it IS NOT sin, we have a debate.

What it boils down to is the way that you CHOSE to practice your faith. 95% of US citizens call themselves "christians"..yet fewer than 35% practice any sort of religious belief. As a christian..you practice your faith either one of two ways.

There's only one way I know to practice faith -- through obedience. NO OBEDIENCE = NO FAITH.

1 - The God of "rapture". You believe that the second coming will resuce and save SOME people but destroy most of humankind. You have your list of requirements that must be met in order to be a "true" Christian and be "saved". You have a "bad news" way of viewing Christ..there will be a last judgement, either at the end of our lives or at the end of history and you better be ready or you're in deep trouble. This would be Christianity of threat...anxiety...and self preservation.

Actually the news is quite good. Christ died so that ALL sinners CAN BE SAVED. Some of the gays on this forum preach that repentence IS NOT required. However, NO REPENTENCE = NO FAITH.

2 - The God of "love and justice"...THE MOST FREQUENT REFERENCE IN THE BIBLE!!! A nice God of compassion and social justice.

He can be stirred to wrath as well. I recommend you do a word search on the bible and see how many times it shows up -- even in the new testament. Enter "wrath" on the search bar for this bible link:

http://www.htmlbible.com/cgi-bin/search/search.pl

Here are just a few quotes from the lips of OUR SAVIOR:

Matthew 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God's acceptance of us is unconditional, and not dependent upon something we believe or must do, or some test of requirements.

funny, I just read where Jesus said faith was required. Did I misread John 3:36?

Those that have a "good news" view where God has invited us into a new life HERE AND NOW, transforms us personally.

God has a carrot and a stick. Read John 3:36 again -- first half is carrot, second half is stick.

This version is the of all transformed people and a transformed earth with the glory of God.

agreed -- so isn't faith required at all? Did Jesus get it wrong?

What sort of Christian are you?

One that believes Jesus.

Is Christianity about requirements such as "here is what you must do to be saved"?

Yes, and the requirements are simple -- trust and obey.

or is Christianity about relationship and transformation such as "here is the path to follow"? Both involve imperatives...but one is a threat...the other is an invitation.

yes the path is clear. The road to destruction is the other path.

Some find they must make God out to a "monarchial model"...meaning you have to express your belief in God through legal language..primarily concerned with personal virtue, or as someone you must measure up to in order to meet his requirements. A God of heaven and a God of Hell.

Wouldn't it be nice to have Jesus measure up to the law instead of ourselves?

To do this, you see God as "lawgiver and judge",

Have you not heard of the Great White Throne Judgment?

meaning the God of works.

Here's a quote from the White Throne:

Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Keeping in mind the entire Protestant Reformation was born out of their rejection for "works" but for "grace"..God's acceptance of us, thus, is uncondtional..and NOT dependent on what we do or say.

Yes indeed, we are saved by grace. That's what puts us in the Lamb's Book of Life. Unfortunately not everyone is in the book of life.

If you begin to say, God accepts us "IF"....then you have now put conditions on his grace, thus, no longer making it grace.

Agreed with a slight word change -- God forgives if we ask.

So, given that...is God's basis for our life with him based on laws or grace? Requirements and rewards? or Relationships and transformations..here and now??? Grace affirms the latter.

We agree, so can you refute the OP?

 

[MercyBurst]

Repeat thread would probably be the reason no one is bothering MercyBurst.

Honestly why can't anyone come up with an ORIGINAL thread idea.

But, I've conceded to the gay arguments, and it (gay sex) still comes up as sin. Have you seen anyone else use this approach?

Explain why gay sex receives GREATER JUDGMENT than hetero sex UNDER EXACTLY THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. This is both an Old Testament AND a New Testament argument.

Argue "tow 'ebah" until your face turns blue, but the facts are the facts.

 

[MercyBurst]

Rom 1:27
Lev 20:13

When human depravity is tow 'ebah, perderasty, temple prostitution, orgies, malakos, arsenokoites, etc etc and all the WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIOS, why is it EXCLUSIVELY SAME SEX? It must really be bad then.

 

[MercyBurst]

Debate virtually unchallenged.

So tell us, UnitedinChrist, is gay sex sin or not?

Dave, how about a little help from gays-r-us. I need some more depravities to add to the list of gay proclivities.

Tell us again about those TOTALLY GAY temply orgies where arsenokoite meets malako for a pedarastic tow 'ebah of a time.

 

[MercyBurst]

No arguments. Good. The debate can not be challenged.

The bible does not support gay arguments!!!!!

 

[davedjy]

No arguments. Good. The debate can not be challenged.

The bible does not support gay arguments!!!!!

You along with any other forum member who debates here has YET to disprove even one myth on the fact sheet. Nowhere in the original Hebrew or Greek is homosexuality as one's innate sexual constitution condemned. I am still looking for one refute of this, and I have yet to get it, and a tired old Talmud link is ridiculous at best.


The Jerusalem Bible, German 1968, agrees with Scroggs, translating arsenokoitai as "child molesters". Of course, fundamentalists ignore that bible translation [as well as Phillips (1958), Jerusalem Bible (French -1955), The Latin Vulgate, (405), etc., of which reject the homosexual interpretation] while accepting the NIV (which is unclear since it has the translation "homosexual offenders").
Note: The Dutch NBG translation of 1951 uses the word "schandjongens" ("maleprostitutes" in English) for malakoi and "knapenschenders" ("boy-molesters" in English) for arsenokotai.

Rembert Truluck is a Doctor of Theology from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY, 1968. He was a Southern Baptist Pastor from 1953 to 1973, and a Professor of Religion at Baptist College of Charleston, SC, from1973 to 1981. Truluck is well learned in Hebrew and Greek. In his article "The Six Bible Passages Used To Condemn Homosexuals", Dr. Truluck writes, "The Greek word [arsenokoitai] translated "homosexual" does not mean homosexual! The word is obscure and uncertain."
Dr. Truluck personally wrote a letter to me, in responce to mine, in which he writes: ".... [arsenokoitai] was never translated as "homosexual" until 1946, and was a bad mistake then."

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[MercyBurst]

You along with any other forum member who debates here has YET to disprove even one myth on the fact sheet. Nowhere in the original Hebrew or Greek is homosexuality as one's innate sexual constitution condemned.

From reading the bible, I don't see innate constitution, not that it really matters in this debate anyway:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly,

The Jerusalem Bible, German 1968, agrees with Scroggs, translating arsenokoitai as "child molesters". Of course, fundamentalists ignore that bible translation [as well as Phillips (1958), Jerusalem Bible (French -1955), The Latin Vulgate, (405), etc., of which reject the homosexual interpretation] while accepting the NIV (which is unclear since it has the translation "homosexual offenders").
Note: The Dutch NBG translation of 1951 uses the word "schandjongens" ("maleprostitutes" in English) for malakoi and "knapenschenders" ("boy-molesters" in English) for arsenokotai.

Rembert Truluck is a Doctor of Theology from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY, 1968. He was a Southern Baptist Pastor from 1953 to 1973, and a Professor of Religion at Baptist College of Charleston, SC, from1973 to 1981. Truluck is well learned in Hebrew and Greek. In his article "The Six Bible Passages Used To Condemn Homosexuals", Dr. Truluck writes, "The Greek word [arsenokoitai] translated "homosexual" does not mean homosexual! The word is obscure and uncertain."
Dr. Truluck personally wrote a letter to me, in responce to mine, in which he writes: ".... [arsenokoitai] was never translated as "homosexual" until 1946, and was a bad mistake then."

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The Mystery.htm

Questions for you to answer:

1) So why isn't male-on-female sex UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES condemned with a death penalty?

2) Why are the verses in Romans 1:27 and in Leviticus 20:13 EXCLUSIVE TO SAME SEX?

3) Why are the worst examples of human depravity found in the bible EXCLUSIVELY SAME SEX?

You can not answer these questions, and they defeat everything you've presented.

 

[davedjy]

From reading the bible, I don't see innate constitution, not that it really matters in this debate anyway:







Questions for you to answer:

1) So why isn't male-on-female sex UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES condemned with a death penalty?

2) Why are the verses in Romans 1:27 and in Leviticus 20:13 EXCLUSIVE TO SAME SEX?

3) Why are the worst examples of human depravity found in the bible EXCLUSIVELY SAME SEX?

You can not answer these questions, and they defeat everything you've presented.

1) Why isn't female-female sex condemned under YOUR same logic

Romans 1 is talking about idolaters who worshiped idols and were malicious murderers, read the whole passage.

Romans, Chapter 1. In this passage, the Apostle Paul gives a very specific list of characteristics describing those in question: He describes them as those who once knew God, but who chose not to honor God as God. Instead, they worshiped material images of human beings, birds, animals, and reptiles as objects of worship rather than the One True Living God. We are told that they were filled with EVERY kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, and malice. They were full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossip, slander, insolence, haughtiness, and boastfulness. They were inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. (NRSV) As a result of their total depravity, God turned them over to complete spiritual ruin, so that they left no stone of sexual debauchery unturned, engaging in mass orgies and idolatrous sexual cult worship, which included both homosexual and heterosexual debauchery.

These murderous, malicious people who worshiped idols and hated God after once knowing Him, have NOTHING to do with people who have a sincere desire to love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and who happen to be homosexual. Today, there are multitudes of homosexual people who are tirelessly yearning to be a part of the Church so that they can WORSHIP the One True Living God and profess Jesus as their Savior. Anyone who can possibly equate the monstrous, reprobate people of Romans 1 to modern-day gay and lesbian people who reach out to humanity, love and respect their parents, and who have been expelled from the church they love, just for being homosexual, is not using common sense! Like those religious leaders who scorned Jesus, they have chosen to believe lies founded on their traditions.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

 

[MercyBurst]

1) Why isn't female-female sex condemned under YOUR same logic

Romans 1 is talking about idolaters who worshiped idols and were malicious murderers, read the whole passage.

When they do these awful things, why are they EXCLUSIVELY SAME SEX?

Romans, Chapter 1. In this passage, the Apostle Paul gives a very specific list of characteristics describing those in question: He describes them as those who once knew God, but who chose not to honor God as God. Instead, they worshiped material images of human beings, birds, animals, and reptiles as objects of worship rather than the One True Living God.

Giving honour to pornography and the theory of evolution, where man came from animals -- I'd say that pretty well fills the bill, but that isn't really relevant to the argument. The question is, when they do all these terrible things, WHY DO THEY TURN GAY?

We are told that they were filled with EVERY kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, and malice. They were full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossip, slander, insolence, haughtiness, and boastfulness. They were inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. (NRSV) As a result of their total depravity, God turned them over to complete spiritual ruin, so that they left no stone of sexual debauchery unturned, engaging in mass orgies and idolatrous sexual cult worship, which included both homosexual and heterosexual debauchery.

There is nothing in there about heterosexuals, it's EXCLUSIVELY HOMOS that are doing ALL THESE TERRIBLE THINGS.

These murderous, malicious people who worshiped idols and hated God after once knowing Him, have NOTHING to do with people who have a sincere desire to love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and who happen to be homosexual.

Except that they are ALL GAY.

Today, there are multitudes of homosexual people who are tirelessly yearning to be a part of the Church so that they can WORSHIP the One True Living God and profess Jesus as their Savior. Anyone who can possibly equate the monstrous, reprobate people of Romans 1 to modern-day gay and lesbian people who reach out to humanity, love and respect their parents, and who have been expelled from the church they love, just for being homosexual, is not using common sense! Like those religious leaders who scorned Jesus, they have chosen to believe lies founded on their traditions.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

So why aren't heterosexuals condemned the same way as Romans 1 UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES?

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between hetero and homo, and you know it!!!!!!!!!

 

[davedjy]

When they do these awful things, why are they EXCLUSIVELY SAME SEX?



Giving honour to pornography and the theory of evolution, where man came from animals -- I'd say that pretty well fills the bill, but that isn't really relevant to the argument. The question is, when they do all these terrible things, WHY DO THEY TURN GAY?



There is nothing in there about heterosexuals, it's EXCLUSIVELY HOMOS that are doing ALL THESE TERRIBLE THINGS.



Except that they are ALL GAY.




So why aren't heterosexuals condemned the same way as Romans 1 UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES?

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between hetero and homo, and you know it!!!!!!!!!

If you don't understand the historical context of the verses you bring here, you will not ever get it.

 

[MercyBurst]

If you don't understand the historical context of the verses you bring here, you will not ever get it.

You have no argument. Why do gays get the death penalty and straights don't get the death penalty UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

[MercyBurst]

You have no answer -- not from the bible.

 

[MercyBurst]

All the so-called "gay-affirming" bible arguments go to the garbage heap. There is no debate.

This thread proves it once and for all. It's finished.

It's a masterpiece.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

1) Why isn't female-female sex condemned under YOUR same logic

Romans 1 is talking about idolaters who worshiped idols and were malicious murderers, read the whole passage.

Romans, Chapter 1. In this passage, the Apostle Paul gives a very specific list of characteristics describing those in question: He describes them as those who once knew God, but who chose not to honor God as God. Instead, they worshiped material images of human beings, birds, animals, and reptiles as objects of worship rather than the One True Living God. We are told that they were filled with EVERY kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, and malice. They were full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossip, slander, insolence, haughtiness, and boastfulness. They were inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. (NRSV) As a result of their total depravity, God turned them over to complete spiritual ruin, so that they left no stone of sexual debauchery unturned, engaging in mass orgies and idolatrous sexual cult worship, which included both homosexual and heterosexual debauchery.

These murderous, malicious people who worshiped idols and hated God after once knowing Him, have NOTHING to do with people who have a sincere desire to love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and who happen to be homosexual. Today, there are multitudes of homosexual people who are tirelessly yearning to be a part of the Church so that they can WORSHIP the One True Living God and profess Jesus as their Savior. Anyone who can possibly equate the monstrous, reprobate people of Romans 1 to modern-day gay and lesbian people who reach out to humanity, love and respect their parents, and who have been expelled from the church they love, just for being homosexual, is not using common sense! Like those religious leaders who scorned Jesus, they have chosen to believe lies founded on their traditions.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

Quite the post! Excellent! Then again...we know common sense is not used with fundamentalist b/c sense is not something that they embrace. Some may take that as a "slam" but it's only making an observation on literalism.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

If you don't understand the historical context of the verses you bring here, you will not ever get it.

Mercy....don't even tell me that you equate the belief in evolution as "man coming from animals".... if so...you really are a case study. People that believe in evolution believe man evolved from primative man to modern man...not from ape to man..yet ANOTHER misrepresentation that you seem to embrace...Just an fyi, and not to go off topic too much... the theroy based on fossil findings and bone carbons would be,

Pliopithecus, Pronconsul, Dryopithecus, Oreopithecus, Ramapithecus, Australopithecus, Paranthropus, Advanced Australopithecus, Homo Erectus, Early Homo Sapiens, Solo Man, & Rhodesian Man, Neanderthal Man, Cro-Magnon Man, Modern Man .

This goes back about 4M+ years..but don't tell me...dinasours and fossils more than 6K years old are all just fake and made up...

 

[MercyBurst]

Mercy....don't even tell me that you equate the belief in evolution as "man coming from animals".... if so...you really are a case study.

Most evolutionists believe ALL of the animal kingdom evolved from a single cell organism that existed 100s of millions of years ago, and that humanity evolved from the hominids. Hence, homo sapiens is considered just another animal species by biologists.

People that believe in evolution believe man evolved from primative man to modern man...not from ape to man..yet ANOTHER misrepresentation that you seem to embrace...Just an fyi, and not to go off topic too much... the theroy based on fossil findings and bone carbons would be,

Nothing new -- this is standard theory that's been around since.....

Pliopithecus, Pronconsul, Dryopithecus, Oreopithecus, Ramapithecus, Australopithecus, Paranthropus, Advanced Australopithecus, Homo Erectus, Early Homo Sapiens, Solo Man, & Rhodesian Man, Neanderthal Man, Cro-Magnon Man, Modern Man .

This goes back about 4M+ years..but don't tell me...dinasours and fossils more than 6K years old are all just fake and made up...

I never said they were. I said people give nature the honor rather than God. Isn't that exactly what Romans 1:24 says as well?

 

[MercyBurst]

Quite the post! Excellent! Then again...we know common sense is not used with fundamentalist b/c sense is not something that they embrace. Some may take that as a "slam" but it's only making an observation on literalism.

The law is in the bible. Gays are condemned differently from straights. THis proves, biblically speaking, that there is a difference between gay and straight, much to your chagrin.