Scripture reflections and musings

Zoii

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it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived
This phrase pretty much nails the outrageous injustice against women that has been perpetuated.

Eve was deceived - But it was Adam who took of the apple fully knowing what he was doing - yet blamed it all on Eve. Eve was deceived - Adam acted wilfully but it was Eve who took the rap.
 
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Dave-W

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This hey phrase pretty much nails the outrageous injustice against women that has been perpetuated.

Eve was deceived - But it was Adam who took of the apple fully knowing what he was doing - yet blamed it all on Eve. Eve was deceived - Adam acted wilfully but it was Eve who took the rap.
Exactly right.
 
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bekkilyn

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Let's also consider that when God chose to be born on earth as a human being, it was through the flesh of a woman, and original sin did not pass through Mary onto Jesus. Up to this point, all humans born through a non-virgin birth, with a human male in the equation, were born into sin. But Jesus who was born only of woman had no sin in him.

Eve had to be tricked or tempted into taking the fruit, but Adam just took it and ate with no argument. Perhaps there is a connection between Adam's lack of argument and the fact that males were physically excluded from Jesus' conception in every way.

Many have interpreted these passages as it all being Eve's fault because she was tempted and Adam just went along with it because he was "obviously" being chivalrous or some other similar sort of guesswork to put all the blame on women as a justification for all the oppression throughout the centuries, but if you look at it in the sense that Adam just *did* it without any qualms of conscience whatsoever and THEN had the audacity to blame GOD for what he did, "the woman YOU gave me made me do it" puts a whole different perception on the entire event.

God wasn't fooled. He held Adam just as accountable for sin as Eve.
 
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Dave-W

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Many have interpreted these passages as it all being Eve's fault because she was tempted and Adam just went along with it because he was "obviously" being chivalrous or some other similar sort of guesswork
Yeah - even those arguments fall flat IMO.

The one I heard growing up was that Adam loved her MORE than God so he chose to follow her into sin rather than lose her.

Never sat right with me.
 
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bekkilyn

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Yeah - even those arguments fall flat IMO.

The one I heard growing up was that Adam loved her MORE than God so he chose to follow her into sin rather than lose her.

Never sat right with me.

Oh yes, I've heard that one too. :)
 
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Dave-W

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Zoii

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I don't actually believe the Adam and Eve passages to be real but rather a construct for a paradigm on the origins of life (I tend to accept the scientific explanation behind the origins of man). The unfortunate thing about that construct of that paradigm was that it is deliberate in establishing women as being the origin of all evil. Then the notion of women as being either unclean, sinful, needing to be virtuous and subservient, fills the entire biblical text. But even if we accept that those verses have an alternative explanation, they are none the less used in religious practice to enforce patriarchy.
 
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Paidiske

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Oh, I don't think it's a historical account, either. It's a theological reflection on humanity before God.

I do think we can read it in ways which don't see women as "the problem," but we do have the problem in doing so of needing to wade through millennia of patriarchal baggage.
 
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PloverWing

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I don't actually believe the Adam and Eve passages to be real but rather a construct for a paradigm on the origins of life (I tend to accept the scientific explanation behind the origins of man).

I agree with you on this. When I read the Adam and Eve story (and some of the other very early Genesis stories), I read it as a story written by the ancient Hebrews to convey important truths about human nature and humans' relationship to God. So, mythological, in the sense of a fictional story intended to convey deep and important ideas.

Right now, I don't know why the story's author has Eve taking the fruit first, then Adam. I'm not satisfied with explanations that involve hierarchy or authority, because I don't see that elsewhere in the story. When woman is created, the storyteller goes to some length to say that the woman is like the man, in a way that the animals can never be. There's equality in that part of the story. We see "he shall rule over thee" at the end, but it's part of the curse: because humans sinned, relationships are broken in several ways, and this is one of the ways.

I will say that, with the story arranged as it is, it allows the delightful cascade of blaming at the end: "Eve made me do it!" "The serpent made me do it!" Very human, that.


On misogyny more generally in the Scriptures: I see both in the Bible, women having terribly low status in many portions of the Bible, but also strong affirmation of the full worth of women. I'm hoping we can work through this mixture of biblical viewpoints as this discussion progresses.
 
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Dave-W

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I do take Genesis 2 as real events, real people.

IMO it is a horrendous sin against Eve for the church to have judged her as evil in those events; and a gross misappropriation of scripture to use it to enforce patriarchy.
 
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Dave-W

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On misogyny more generally in the Scriptures: I see both in the Bible, women having terribly low status in many portions of the Bible, but also strong affirmation of the full worth of women. I'm hoping we can work through this mixture of biblical viewpoints as this discussion progresses.
Low status = recording life as it was

Full worth of women = how God designed it to be
 
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Paidiske

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I've long thought - I'm following on from Dave's point about patriarchy - that one of the things we most desperately need to get right, and most consistently fail to get right, is our theology and spirituality of power. How we understand power, how we relate to it, and our temptation to worship it.

Which oddly enough brings us back around to the garden, because don't we say that knowledge is power?
 
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bekkilyn

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I've long thought - I'm following on from Dave's point about patriarchy - that one of the things we most desperately need to get right, and most consistently fail to get right, is our theology and spirituality of power. How we understand power, how we relate to it, and our temptation to worship it.

Which oddly enough brings us back around to the garden, because don't we say that knowledge is power?

Power is winning the submission competition. :)
 
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Paidiske

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It might be worth looking into the phrase that is often translated "helpmeet" - ezer kenegdo - it is not a term for a social inferior. In fact it's a term Scripture elsewhere uses of God.

I think the ideal is not that either partner is boss, but that we are meant to work together in unity and mutuality.
 
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