Scripture reflections and musings

[Paidiske]

Please note: this thread is in the forum for Egalitarian Christians.

We haven't really done this yet, but I thought perhaps some people would be interested in a place to share and reflect on Scriptures together in this forum.

I thought perhaps we might start - logically enough? - with Adam and Eve and the narrative of creation and fall, but I'm open to wherever the discussion might take us. Do join in!

 

[Paidiske]

From the Statement of Purpose for this forum:

The Egalitarian Christians forum is a forum for discussion and fellowship for members who believe in Biblical equality between men and women. Some things about Egalitarians include:

• Belief that the Bible teaches the full equality of men and women in Creation and in Redemption
• Belief that both woman and man were created for full and equal partnership.
• Belief that man and woman were co-participants in the Fall
• Belief that husbands and wives are joint heirs together of the grace of life and that they are bound together in a relationship of mutual submission and responsibility
• Belief that both mothers and fathers are to exercise leadership in the nurture, training, discipline and teaching of their children

Some specific guidelines for this forum include:
1. This is a safehouse forum for Egalitarian Christians. Criticizing or mocking members who hold that view is not allowed.
2. This forum is intended to be informational and not for debate. There may be some disagreements, but these should be handled with grace towards one another rather than attacking one another.
3. Abortion cannot be promoted on Christian Forums.
4. Members of this forum may come from all denominations, and may hold a range of positions on the ordination of women as leaders, pastors, or sacramental ministers within the Church. These differing views may be explored within this forum, but that women are called to share in the work of the church alongside their brothers may not be debated. Ordained women and their ministries are to be respected in this forum.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

 

[St. Helens]

MOD HAT ON
Please be aware of the SoP of this forum when you post
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[bekkilyn]

The creation account supports full equality of men and women. Both the man and the woman were created in God's image. Both the man and woman were given stewardship of the earth. Both the man and woman are held accountable for their sin. Neither are given dominion over the other. This is how humanity was created and what humanity should be attempting to recreate here on earth as ambassadors of God's kingdom. It is sinful, evil, and unscriptural for Christians to promote any sort of gender hierarchy. Of course, God knew that this evil would occur due to the consequences of sin, and said so, but it is no excuse for us to use God's "prediction" as some sort of justification to do serious harm to half of his beloved human creation.

 

[~Zao~]

HYYYYYYYMMMMNNNNNNEEEEEEE ......... hahaha trick or treat snick or shrink tehehehehahaho

 

[PloverWing]

I have long thought that Genesis 3:16 is one of the most poignant passages of Scripture, a painfully accurate description of the way that sin damages our intimate relationships: "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." We desire love and intimacy, and instead, we get domination. I found this especially descriptive back when I was conservative and believed that the only kind of marriage open to Christians was a hierarchical one. I desired to love and be loved by a man, but hierarchy was all that I thought I could ever have.

 

[Paidiske]

It makes me think, too, about how it's "not good" to be alone; (the first thing ever described as "not good" in Scripture); and yet there are so many ways to be alone in dysfunctional relationships.

 

[~Zao~]

It makes me think, too, about how it's "not good" to be alone; (the first thing ever described as "not good" in Scripture); and yet there are so many ways to be alone in dysfunctional relationships.

Being alone is being human. Being hierarchy isn't the state of God's creation.

 

[~Zao~]

Hope everyone's holiday was enjoyable. We were on a break!!!!

 

[Paidiske]

I would have said humans are created for relationships; we are created in the image of a Triune God; a God in which profound and intimate relationships are part of God's very nature.

Being "alone" then is a distortion or detraction from our full humanity, don't you think?

 

[~Zao~]

Let's not forget where the rock on the wall fell into what court.

 

[mark kennedy]

Please note: this thread is in the forum for Egalitarian Christians.

We haven't really done this yet, but I thought perhaps some people would be interested in a place to share and reflect on Scriptures together in this forum.

I thought perhaps we might start - logically enough? - with Adam and Eve and the narrative of creation and fall, but I'm open to wherever the discussion might take us. Do join in!

Well you bring up two narratives that are transcendental, in that they transcend all that follows, creation and original sin. Creation is commemorated every Sabbath, explicitly the point of it was to remember God finished his work of creation and rested on the seventh day. What's more God creating life in the Genesis account has profound implication for the New Testament promise of eternal life.

Ok, now for the more awkward part, how does it reflect some egalitarian relationship between Adam and Eve I think might be an important aspect. The strangest part of Adam and Eve during the temptation was that Adam was pretty much silent, Eve did all the talking and she handed him the forbidden fruit. According to Paul:

For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1 Timothy 2:13-15)
​

Now we know that submission is supposed to be mutual in the New Testament, there can be no question about that. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God (Ephesians 5:21). That's where it gets confusing, Paul emphasizes that Adam was created first, I'm going out on a limb here and suggest that implies authority, I won't argue it, just saying. He also says that Adam was not deceived while Eve was, yet another twist in the plot. Your beloved is deceived, you know better and you go ahead and sin when you know good and well it's all based on a lie?

What makes this whole thing so dysfunctional is that the one who understood what was going on was silent. There can be no question that they were equal, they were one based initially on the fact that Eve came from Adam if nothing else.

I could continue rambling but I'll leave off with this, this whole thing leaves me hopelessly puzzled. I like the old Scottish minister who preached for 50 years on the same topic, original sin, who's fault was it? His conclusion was that it was Adam because he failed to exercise his authority. All he had to do is tell her to go back to pruning those trees like he told her and tells the Devil if he doesn't like that rules in this garden the Lord will be here early this evening, you can take it up with him.

The best I can really do is tell you this, if your in authority and you know something is wrong, speak up.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Paidiske]

I've wondered, sometimes - given that one of the things which tempted Eve was that she saw that the fruit "was to be desired to make one wise," - whether Eve felt inadequate already. Did she feel unwise, or lacking somehow, that she felt she had a deficiency to make up for? Where would she get that idea?

Is Adam's silence here indicative of something else? Presumably he's never treated her badly, but whom did she have to compare herself to, except him?

The psychology of the temptation narrative is really fascinating.

 

[Southernscotty]

I've wondered, sometimes - given that one of the things which tempted Eve was that she saw that the fruit "was to be desired to make one wise," - whether Eve felt inadequate already. Did she feel unwise, or lacking somehow, that she felt she had a deficiency to make up for? Where would she get that idea?

Is Adam's silence here indicative of something else? Presumably he's never treated her badly, but whom did she have to compare herself to, except him?

The psychology of the temptation narrative is really fascinating.

Creation was perfect in the beginning and before the fall they realized no shame so I wouldn't think she felt that way until the serpent started deceiving her. That is where the trouble started as she first submitted to the eating of the fruit and then passed it to Adam and he did eat.
They both then failed by partaking of that forbidden fruit, but it was satan that brought the lies and deception just as he does today and started the "lie mixed with a little truth".

 

[Paidiske]

And how often the lie that we are inadequate or worthless is at the root of our bad behaviour!

 

[Southernscotty]

And how often the lie that we are inadequate or worthless is at the root of our bad behaviour!

That is true, That is why I [I believe] that we see so many here with depression related disorders

 

[Southernscotty]

Scripture says their "eyes were opened' and they saw they were naked so they realized NO sin until that moment.
As I thought about that the scripture hit me that the kingdom of heaven belongs to those who have a"childlike" faith. That is trusting fully in the Father like a little child trust. Wholeheartedly
We need to let Him have the wheel of our lives and crawl into our "car seats" and let Him drive because He knows the way home. He doesn't need us telling Him where to turn :]

 

[Dave-W]

I've wondered, sometimes - given that one of the things which tempted Eve was that she saw that the fruit "was to be desired to make one wise," - whether Eve felt inadequate already. Did she feel unwise, or lacking somehow, that she felt she had a deficiency to make up for? Where would she get that idea?

1 Timothy 2:14
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.​

She was tricked by the words of the serpent. He made her believe she was inadequate and God was holding out on them. Adam knowingly rebelled.

 

[Dave-W]

And how often the lie that we are inadequate or worthless is at the root of our bad behaviour!

Indeed. If we see ourselves as bad we tend to act bad.

Proverbs 23:7a
For as he thinks within himself, so he is.​

I remember Derek Prince coming out with a list of scriptural statements of who we are in the Messiah. More recently Joyce Myers came out with a similar list. It is designed to combat that mentality.

 

[Dave-W]

Being hierarchy isn't the state of God's creation.

True, but many see God himself as hierarchical, and all His creation with Him.

But God is not a gentile, and He instructed His followers to not act like gentiles:

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,"​