Scripture Manipulation...

[maco]

Why do we, as SDAs, manipulate the Scriptures to fit our beliefs?

We teach that drinking any fermented wine is against the Bible. In order to establish this belief with the Bible we manipulate verses to make them say something they're not saying so that they agree with our doctrines.

Here is one example I just heard the other day and it upsets me to hear when this is done. I was listening to a SDA preacher on tape when he came to this verse.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing?

Here we have a clear Bible verse that supports fermented wine at a Christian fellowship. We can't say it was unfermented grape juice because they got drunk so what do we teach when we come to this verse? We tell people that these men came to the supper drunk already. But this is not what the verses are saying. It says they ate and drank at the supper before the others and got drunk in doing so.

Shame on us if we have to manipulate the Word of God to prove our doctrines.

Why can't we just let the Bible speak for itself in the area of wine and jewelry?

What are your thoughts?

 

[OntheDL]

Why do we, as SDAs, manipulate the Scriptures to fit our beliefs?

We teach that drinking any fermented wine is against the Bible. In order to establish this belief with the Bible we manipulate verses to make them say something they're not saying so that they agree with our doctrines.

Here is one example I just heard the other day and it upsets me to here when this is done. I was listening to a SDA preacher on tape when he came to this verse.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing?

Here we have a clear Bible verse that supports fermented wine at a Christian fellowship. We can't say it was unfermented grape juice because they got drunk so what do we teach when we come to this verse? We tell people that these men came to the supper drunk already. But this is not what the verses are saying. It says they eat and drank at the supper before the others and got drunk in doing so.

Shame on us if we have to manipulate the Word of God to prove our doctrines.

Why can't we just let the Bible speak for itself in the area of wine and jewelry?

What are your thoughts?

The word 'drunk' in vs21 is methuo. It may also be translated as 'drink well'. I looked over the context and failed to see where it says it's ok to drink fermented wine.

However the bible does say the following about the fermented wine.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

If you want to be drunken with wine and wear jewlry, go ahead, you don't need anyone's permission. But shame on you if you seek advise from the Bible but do not let the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

[maco]

Hi OntheDL,

Thanks for replying to my post.

The Bible clearly teaches us that drunken ness is forbidden. Even the verses you quoted are referring to drunken ness, not drinking wine in itself.

OntheDL= The word 'drunk' in vs21 is methuo. It may also be translated as 'drink well'. I looked over the context and failed to see where it says it's ok to drink fermented wine.

The word, methuo is a word used for drunken ness.

Strong's Ref. # 3184
Romanized methuo
Pronounced meth-oo'-o
from another form of GSN3178; to drink to intoxication, i.e. get drunk:

The truth of this verse is the fact that fermented wine was used at this fellowship supper, not grape juice. Because fermented wine was used at this fellowship supper indicates to us that the use of fermented wine is not sinful. This is one of many verses that support the use of fermented wine, in like manner, there are many verses that support the sinfulness of drunken ness but let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm a lover of truth and I believe the SDA has a lot of it but we have allowed personal convictions to manipulate the Bible and form doctrines. It's hard enough to lead people to Christ without putting more stumbling blocks in their way.

I myself don't even drink fermented drink not because the Bible forbids it, but rather, because I don't like the taste.

I have no problem with a Christian or even a church denomination obstaining from wine as a personal choice but we just can't call drinking wine a sin when the Bible does not allow us to do so. Shame on us when we do because all it does is not only produce weaker brothers and sisters like those who believed eating meat sacrificed to idols was sinful but it also keeps people out of the church who understand what the Bible really says about wine.

The issue is not in drinking or not drinking the issue is we need to be truthful to the text for the sake of truth.

What are your thoughs?

 

[djconklin]

Here we have a clear Bible verse that supports fermented wine at a Christian fellowship.

I believe that text does not say anything about the use of fermented beverages at the Lord's supper. Rather it is talking about those who show up drunk from having drunk too much wine.

Have you looked to see how Dr. Bacchiocchi handles the text?

 

[Your Neighbor]

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/

Five of the nine chapters can be accessed by clicking their titles below:
A Preview of Wine in the Bible
The Meaning of Wine
The Preservation of Grape Juice
Jesus and Wine
Wine in the Apostolic Church

 

[honorthesabbath]

It IS amazing how some ppl will twist the scriptures Maco--and you have done a fine job of that. Let's consider something for a moment. Now you claim and rightly so that the bible forbids 'drunkeness'. So let me ask you something. At what stage is 'drunkeness' determined?

The state of 'soberness' is the absense of the substance that would make us 'drunk'. And so--even an ounce or any amount less than that--when ingested, now has placed us at some level of 'drunkeness'. And so--the SDA position of total abstinence correct.

PS--as an ex drinker of alcohol--I can attest to the fact that before you get to the falling down stage--one definately goes thru levels of 'drunkeness'--ALL of which render you 'stupid'!!!!!

 

[maco]

Hi honorthesabbath,

Thanks for your reply.

There is a difference between having a glass or two of wine with a meal and drunkenness. There are many positive verses in the Bible that speak of drinking fermented wine.

There are also many warnings in the Bible regarding drunkenness.

Getting drunk is motived by a wrong attitude which leads to drinking to get drunk, whereas, having a glass of wine with a meal is not the same attitude nor is it considered the sin of drunkenness.

Have you ever taken any medication for a sickness such as a cough or sinis?

Have you ever had surgery?

Did you know that these things cause you to be mildly under the influence?

Did you know that there are some vitimins that help ou come out of depression such as the omega 3s? These influence you too.

There are many things that chemically influence our minds yet it is not considered the sin of drunkenness.

Drunkenness is sinfull, wine is not. Adultery is sinful sex is not.

Many blessings,
John

 

[maco]

Hi Your Neighbor,

Thanks for your reply.

I have read the book by Bacchiocchi regarding wine in the Bible. I must say he is a master at Scripture manipulation.

The word used in the Bible for the sin of wine is drunkenness. Drunkenness is a byproduct of excessive drining. Drinking wine in itself is not sinful.

The word used for the sin of sex is adultery. Sex in itself is not siful.

These things in themselves are not sinful, but rather, how we partake of them is what makes them sinful.

Did you know that money is not sinful?

Did you know that money can become sinful?

Let us understand these things in light of Scripture.

Many blessings,
John

 

[maco]

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I believe that text does not say anything about the use of fermented beverages at the Lord's supper. Rather it is talking about those who show up drunk from having drunk too much wine.

Have you looked to see how Dr. Bacchiocchi handles the text?

Hi djconklin,

The verse plainly says...they were eating and drinking at the supper. They didn't come to the supper drunk.

Lets take a close look at the verse to see if they were eating and drinking at the supper.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?

This is pretty clear but just in case you missed it lets look at another translation.

NJB
1 Corinthians 11:20-22 So, when you meet together, it is not the Lord's Supper that you eat; for when the eating begins, each one of you has his own supper first, and there is one going hungry while another is getting drunk. Surely you have homes for doing your eating and drinking in?


NRS
1 Corinthians 11:20-22 When you come together, it is not really to eat the Lord's supper.For when the time comes to eat, each of you goes ahead with your own supper, and one goes hungry and another becomes drunk. What! Do you not have homes to eat and drink in?


Are you catching what is being said here. The verse is saying they are drinking and getting drunk at the supper. Paul even goes on to make the comment, "Don't you have your own homes to eat and drink in". This tells me they were not drinking at their homes, they were drinking and getting drunk at the supper.

Don't listen to other people, listen to the word of God.

As far as Bacchiocchi goes, I read his book on wine in the Bible and found him to be a master at Scripture manipulation. It's almost funny how clever he does it.

Many blessings,
John

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hi honorthesabbath,

Thanks for your reply.

There is a difference between having a glass or two of wine with a meal and drunkenness. There are many positive verses in the Bible that speak of drinking fermented wine.

There are also many warnings in the Bible regarding drunkenness.

Getting drunk is motived by a wrong attitude which leads to drinking to get drunk, whereas, having a glass of wine with a meal is not the same attitude nor is it considered the sin of drunkenness.

Have you ever taken any medication for a sickness such as a cough or sinis?

Have you ever had surgery?

Did you know that these things cause you to be mildly under the influence?

Did you know that there are some vitimins that help ou come out of depression such as the omega 3s? These influence you too.

There are many things that chemically influence our minds yet it is not considered the sin of drunkenness.

Drunkenness is sinfull, wine is not. Adultery is sinful sex is not.

Many blessings,
John

MAC--you have totally missed the point here.

'ANY' amount of alcohol consumed-STARTS the drunken process. Let me ask you this--how much cocaine is an acceptable amount? How much is too much?

Look ath this text again--is the indictment against the 'amount' or the 'sustance'? Pr 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Try as you may-you cannot find where alcohol consumption in any amount is acceptable. Here's anothr one...
Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Notice the sequence of this text. The first woe is just the inticement to offer the drink. Then it's the actual giving of the bottle--and then finally 'causing' him to become drunk.

So you see--the foundational teaching of abstinance from all harmful substances is sound! Poison is poison in any amount.

 

[maco]

MAC--you have totally missed the point here.

'ANY' amount of alcohol consumed-STARTS the drunken process. Let me ask you this--how much cocaine is an acceptable amount? How much is too much?

Look ath this text again--is the indictment against the 'amount' or the 'sustance'? Pr 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Try as you may-you cannot find where alcohol consumption in any amount is acceptable. Here's anothr one...
Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Notice the sequence of this text. The first woe is just the inticement to offer the drink. Then it's the actual giving of the bottle--and then finally 'causing' him to become drunk.

So you see--the foundational teaching of abstinance from all harmful substances is sound! Poison is poison in any amount.

First of all Proverbs 20:1 is spiritual. Why do I say that? Because wine can't talk neither can strong drink fight. What this verse is saying is the excessive use of wine or strong drink will produce these affects in you. We all know that excessive use of wine will cause drunkenness which is sin. Did you know that the excessive use of anything can be sinful?

Two things regarding Habakkuk 2:15. First is that it too is also spiritual, in other words, it's not referring to literal wine. Secondly you have missed the spirutal application of what is being said when you just quote verse 15.

Lets take a look at the verse in context from another translation so you can grasp the true spiritual application of the verses.

RSV
Habakkuk 2:9:18 Woe to him who gets evil gain for his house, to set his nest on high, to be safe from the reach of harm! You have devised shame to your house by cutting off many peoples; you have forfeited your life. For the stone will cry out from the wall, and the beam from the woodwork respond. Woe to him who builds a town with blood, and founds a city on iniquity! Behold, is it not from the Lord of hosts that peoples labor only for fire, and nations weary themselves for nought? For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink of the cup of his wrath, and makes them drunk, to gaze on their shame! You will be sated with contempt instead of glory. Drink, yourself, and stagger! The cup in the Lord's right hand will come around to you, and shame will come upon your glory! The violence done to Lebanon will overwhelm you; the destruction of the beasts will terrify you, for the blood of men and violence to the earth, to cities and all who dwell therein. What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For the workman trusts in his own creation when he makes dumb idols!

So you see, these verses are not telling us that giving a glass of wine or a cold beer to our neigbor is sinful.

Many blessings,
John

 

[honorthesabbath]

First of all Proverbs 20:1 is spiritual. Why do I say that? Because wine can't talk neither can strong drink fight. What this verse is saying is the excessive use of wine or strong drink will produce these affects in you. We all know that excessive use of wine will cause drunkenness which is sin. Did you know that the excessive use of anything can be sinful?

Two things regarding Habakkuk 2:15. First is that it too is also spiritual, in other words, it's not referring to literal wine. Secondly you have missed the spirutal application of what is being said when you just quote verse 15.

Lets take a look at the verse in context from another translation so you can grasp the true spiritual application of the verses.

RSV
Habakkuk 2:9:18 Woe to him who gets evil gain for his house, to set his nest on high, to be safe from the reach of harm! You have devised shame to your house by cutting off many peoples; you have forfeited your life. For the stone will cry out from the wall, and the beam from the woodwork respond. Woe to him who builds a town with blood, and founds a city on iniquity! Behold, is it not from the Lord of hosts that peoples labor only for fire, and nations weary themselves for nought? For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink of the cup of his wrath, and makes them drunk, to gaze on their shame! You will be sated with contempt instead of glory. Drink, yourself, and stagger! The cup in the Lord's right hand will come around to you, and shame will come upon your glory! The violence done to Lebanon will overwhelm you; the destruction of the beasts will terrify you, for the blood of men and violence to the earth, to cities and all who dwell therein. What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For the workman trusts in his own creation when he makes dumb idols!

So you see, these verses are not telling us that giving a glass of wine or a cold beer to our neigbor is sinful.

Many blessings,
John

The RSV totally bastardiszed the meaning of that text--I reject it. The KJV has it right. Sorry--no points to you on this one.

And once more for clarity because you almost got it---the fermented wine is dangerous to the mind and the body--period. Science has shown that even an ounce kills brain cells. Alcohol KILLS BRAIN CELLS!!! IN ANY AMOUNT!!! Do you get it now???

Alcohol bypasses the blood/brain barrier and goes to work killing brain cells--now do you see why our Father doesn't want us to touch it? How many brain cells can you afford to lose? This is why even when a person who has been drinking for years still has dimnished mental capacities when they stop drinking. Satan full well knows that the brain is our communication device to talk with God and understand spiritual themes--and he wants to destroy that communication link. Enough said!

 

[Jimlarmore]

No one can take any amount of alcohol into their bodies without causing a deleterious effect to the physiology. When we intentionally do something to harm our bodies we are sinning. In James2 the Bible tells us if we know to do right and do it not that becomes sin to us. In Romans the Bible says we are not our own we are bought with a price and belong to our creator . We are to take care of the temple of God which is our bodies. The Bible also says we would be judged for what we did in our bodies.

All of this talk about drinking wine is a prelude to doing something much worse as once you compromise your faith you step onto a slippery slope.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[maco]

All these reasons sound good but you'er forgetting one thing. God does not forbid the drinking of fermented wine.

I agree that heavy prolonged drinking does cause harm to the body but a glass or two of wine does not cause harm. I agree that any amount of wine or beer will affect the body in some way that's what makes wine and beer different from the rest. This is why God says a little wine can make a merry heart. To say that a little wine is sinful because it will cause deadly irreversable danger to your body is like saying eating meat causes heart disease so it's sinful to eat it.

Many blessings,
John

 

[honorthesabbath]

To say that a little wine is sinful because it will cause deadly irreversable danger to your body is like saying eating meat causes heart disease so it's sinful to eat it.

Well DAH!!!!!

 

[maco]

honorthesabbath

God does not forbit eating meat either.

If you believe drinking a glass of wine or eating meat is sinful then that is your freedom.

This is one of the problems that I have with the SDA. We call things sinful that the Bible does not call sinful as a result, we produce weak brothers and sisters like those who believed eating meat sacrificed to idols was sinful.

These false thoughts of sinful things also cause people to look at those who partake of these things because they know the truth as though they are sinning. This causes division among the body of Christ.

Many blessings,
John

 

[honorthesabbath]

honorthesabbath

God does not forbit eating meat either.

If you believe drinking a glass of wine or eating meat is sinful then that is your freedom.

This is one of the problems that I have with the SDA. We call things sinful that the Bible does not call sinful as a result, we produce weak brothers and sisters like those who believed eating meat sacrificed to idols was sinful.

These false thoughts of sinful things also cause people to look at those who partake of these things because they know the truth as though they are sinning. This causes division among the body of Christ.

Many blessings,
John

First off--I didn't say that eating meat was sinful!!

What I referred to was that meat eating IS harmful to your body--I was AGREEING with YOUR statement!

But I've made my point way to many times now and you refuse it--no problem--to each his own.

But I would admonish you to stop bashing those Adventists who do take their health as serious as Jesus wants us to. He BOUGHT us with his blood--we are not at liberty to destroy this body from lust!!

Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

If you want to defile your temple with poisons--be my guest--it's your choice.

 

[maco]

First off--I didn't say that eating meat was sinful!!

What I referred to was that meat eating IS harmful to your body--I was AGREEING with YOUR statement!

So it's okay to destroy my body with a steak but not with a glass of wine?

 

[honorthesabbath]

So it's okay to destroy my body with a steak but not with a glass of wine?

NEITHER!!!!! This is point I've been trying to make. Why consume those things when God has given so much other foods that are GOOD for us.

It's about making Godly choices for health and not harm!

But--I'm finished with this topic.

 

[maco]

honorthesabbath

You say drinking wine is sinful because it's harmful to the boby but then you say it's not sinful to eat meat which also harms the body. Your belief is built on sand in this area.

This is a perfect example of manipulating the Bible to fit a particular belief.

According to the Bible, it's not sinful to drink wine but it is sinful to become intoxicated.

Intoxication is seen when your conscience and motor skills are affected. Having a glass or two of wine does not do this.