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That is how I read Romans 11jckstraw72 said:
the individuals who make up the Church have free will, but Christ has promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church,
We are assured that at least some people in the church will continue in the truth until the second coming of Jesus Christ, for there will be true believers who will still be "alive and remain" at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)..
There is no better measuring tool than the Bible, in
terms of determining what is correct doctrine and
what is righteousness:
I suppose we can just say "different measures for different folks"
Revelation Chapter 6 verse by verse - Christian Forums
Revelation 11:1 And was given to me a reed like a rod/staff saying, "Be arousing! and Measure! the Sanctuary of the God, and the altar, and the Ones-worshipping in him;
Reve 21:15 And the one talking with me had *measure/metron reed, golden, that he should be Measuring the City and the gates of Her and the wall of Her
17 And he measures the wall of Her, hundred forty four of cubits, measure of a Man, which is of a Messenger. [Ephesians 3:17-19]
I understand. Lately there have been posters doing that with Scripture/Jesus.someone was saying we have replaced the inafllible God with the fallible Church and i was just trying to point out that that is a false dichotomy
In all fairness you have to take into consideration other views and check them against scripture using logic/reasoning. You may think you are in the 'true' church but a church is a church is a church, and only God Himself is infallible. There are many in the Church, meaning, not just your church, but all churches in the name of Christ, who will not be saved.
Welcome to my old thread about using Scripture as a plumb line.how about same measure, different measurements?
Takes lots of practiceWelcome to my old thread about using Scripture as a plumb line.
Thanks to LL .. you can improve your juggling skills too!
I'll just AMEN that..
Depends on the "tradition"Scripture is indeed a measure, in that it is the authoritative word of God and tradition cannot and must not conflict with scripture.
Who is going to deny this much?
Scripture is indeed a measure, in that it is the authoritative word of God and tradition cannot and must not conflict with scripture.
Who is going to deny this much?
Alright, so it is not an issue of 'do we accept Scripture as authoritative' but rather an issue of 'does Scripture contain every apostolic tradition' and 'do these traditions actually conflict with Scripture or not', as well as what to make of groups which vary in interpretation.The deal is tradition and scripture don't always attach clearly and cleanly. For example, a tradition that is first recorded c250 or later would not necessarily be apostolic. We know that certain Christians introduced non-apostolic traditions.
So, it's not so easy. Groups have alot invested in their traditions. I doubt any would admit that they even have tradition that is non-apostolic, even though it's clear they do.
Alright, so it is not an issue of 'do we accept Scripture as authoritative' but rather an issue of 'does Scripture contain every apostolic tradition' and 'do these traditions actually conflict with Scripture or not', as well as what to make of groups which vary in interpretation.
It seems that there is a lot of pointless arguing over 'is Scripture authoritative' when I doubt anyone here rejects it as authoritative.
Well, the clearest starting point is the notion of Apostolic Succession. If that tradition is truly Apostolic and to be held, your choice of churches is narrowed down... it may be time for an Apostolic Succession thread!So, we say, scripture alone is the way to determine doctrine. Others say, scripture/tradition is the way. I'd say, tie off your tradition to an apostle, then we don't have any conflicts because the source is identical. Groups say they can, but the fact is in many cases, clearly they cannot, yet they persist.
Well, the clearest starting point is the notion of Apostolic Succession. If that tradition is truly Apostolic and to be held, your choice of churches is narrowed down... it may be time for an Apostolic Succession thread!
LLOJ goes on the hunt!Well, the clearest starting point is the notion of Apostolic Succession. If that tradition is truly Apostolic and to be held, your choice of churches is narrowed down... it may be time for an Apostolic Succession thread!
Which begs the question:Clearly the apostles appointed elders who appointed elders. But again, the question is for what reason? To teach the same? Or to develop doctrine/dogma?
I, for one, believe when Paul said, teach the same, he meant that. ECFs also say, the apostles weren't sent out until they had the fulness of the faith.
Another simple example. In 1950 the Roman Catholic church bound its members to believe the assumption of Mary. Clearly that tradition is not apostolic. If it was, we would see it in scripture or Polycarp or Clement or didache or hermas or Irenaues.
Now, RC may say we are the apostolic succession. But even if that is granted without question, does it give them the right to declare new doctrine?
I searched the Scriptures and could not locate anywhere in the entire Bible the word "Calvin" in it! :o What does this mean...?! *gasp*
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