Scriptural references to Purgatory - Old and New Testament

Targaryen said:

Mainline Protestants may by in large not accept the Apocrypha as canon, however, they also don't attmpt to say to others that the beliefs of others within this forum are somehow in error. Your use of the term non-inspired writings in regards to these texts can be construed to make a blanket statement.

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Yes I see your point brother please forgive me. I should've worded it differently and said I don't believe they are inspired writings and neither did many of the early church fathers. They were mostly regarded as historical reference not intended to be used as scriptural dogma.

~Anastasia~ said:

No, not at all. If you are part of a Traditional Church that rejects those books, that is fine. My point is that others who are part of Traditional Churches do. You're not against forum rules by believing what you do, but it's off topic to Traditional Theology to expect the forum to agree with that.

I'm not trying to clamp down against anyone posting. Just trying to put everyone in mind of the rules before we head off in another direction.

I think arguing against the canon shared by many Traditional Christians would fall under attempting to prove their Tradition as wrong, which is better suited to General Theology.

Traditional Theology has a particular ethos and rules of discourse a bit different from other forums. We just try to keep it that way. The Statement of Purpose (required reading for anyone posting here) should explain, but if you have questions, feel free to ask.

My apologies if I came across any other way. I'm posting on the run with only a moment here and there today, so I might have not said exactly what I meant.

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No you were right. The way I worded it was not in compliance with the rules. I stated that Maccabees is not an inspired writing and he made a good point that it is recognized by RCC,EO&OO. So even if I don't agree they are inspired writings I shouldn't have worded it as being a fact that they are not inspired. My apologies I will try to be more careful in the future. God bless

BNR32FAN said:

Oh you did huh? Where did you check? Let me guess, the internet? When someone uses the term "our sins are covered by Jesus" do you think they were interpreting the bible as Jesus being the one who hides our sins? No the bible says our sins are removed and Jesus paid the price for us. Can you please show me where you "checked"? I'd love to see your source.

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I was an protestant for a long time and they all believed that so can the attitude dude, just because you are heterodox in one area doesn't mean others believe even worse things

Targaryen said:

Why is it I have to remind people that this is a Traditional Theology forum?

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Because they want to bring their heterodoxy here

Tutorman said:

I was an protestant for a long time and they all believed that so can the attitude dude, just because you are heterodox in one area doesn't mean others believe even worse things

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Well I don't know about what your church taught but I've never met anyone who believed that Jesus hid our sins. I can't understand why anyone would believe such a thing. The bible clearly teaches repeatedly that Jesus paid for our sins in full. The term covered is used in place of the word paid in every case I've ever encountered. So you shouldn't say that Protestants believe that because the term Protestant is applied to all noncatholic denoms of Christianity. By saying Protestants believe that our sins are covered but still remain hidden is stereotyping all noncatholic Christians into that type of belief. Which is not true. Perhaps you could've worded it a little better. Like maybe say at my old Protestant church they believed this. Please forgive my sarcasm in my last post it looked like you were implying that all Protestants don't believe that Jesus paid for our sins in full. That they believe we are not forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice. I hope you can see how it looked from my point of view. There are a lot of people who say crazy things to attempt to discredit all noncatholic Christians. That's what your comment looked like. Have a blessed day.

BNR32FAN said:

No you were right. The way I worded it was not in compliance with the rules. I stated that Maccabees is not an inspired writing and he made a good point that it is recognized by RCC,EO&OO. So even if I don't agree they are inspired writings I shouldn't have worded it as being a fact that they are not inspired. My apologies I will try to be more careful in the future. God bless

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One of the suggestions that should be in the SOP is to consider wording your posts, "My tradition believes xyz... ". And as we are not to try to tell anyone from another Tradition what they believe, wording things in this way should help.


By the way, not to be disagreeable, but I do remember teaching among some Protestant denominations that basically said that Christ covers our sins, that when God looks at us, He sees only Christ. The implication is that while we remain our same sinful selves, God ignores that entirely and credits us with Christ's righteousness. These are not really completely discrete positions, but tend to vary along a spectrum. The general belief among them is that Christ "pays for" our sins. But there can be different emphases.

I think that discussion was my fault, as it applies to purgatory. Not so much what does God DO with our sins, but how do they affect us.

Ah, I don't have time and that really gets into what I wanted to reply. I probably shouldn't half-reply, but I don't want to delete it. I might be able to get in later tonight to finish.

But short form being, Orthodox tend to focus on being healed from the effects of sin, being really changed, being fitted to be able to enjoy the Presence of God.

Many Protestants focus on the guilt of sin being removed, and consider that to be the necessary condition to be in the Presence of God. And there's the spectrum. Some see themselves as forever being terrible sinners (probably in order to distance themselves from works salvation?) or not wishing to diminish the grace of God. Others believe in sanctification, while believing different things about it.

I'll stop there for now.

BNR32FAN said:

Maccabees is in the Septuagint. Jews don't even recognize it as being canonical today. That's why it is not in the Hebrew bible. You say that man took it out but it was man that put it in the Septuagint to begin with. Maccabees is a deuterocanonical book. It is not a protocanonical book. That means it was only put into the Septuagint as a testimony of history and not to be considered an authority to support ecclesiastical dogma such as purgatory or any other doctrines of the church. I'm glad it was removed from the bible because it causes too many to stumble from lack of understanding its intended purpose.

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Absolutely zero percent of this post is factual. Didn't even stumble on any truth at all. Even the Jews part. The question is which Jews?

I wonder why Protestants didn't follow the Sadducee's. If they did then there would be only four books in their OT. What about the Palestine Jews? Well they would have a few additional writings. What about the Essene's? Then they probably would have to print the OT in two volume sets. Same goes with the Ethiopian Jews. Nope instead Protestants chose the Masoretic Text which possesses a canon established by the descendants of the Pharisees, somewhere between the 3rd to 9th centuries. Heck Christians probably had their canon established before the Rabbinical Jews did.

So Protestants instead of the Christian OT canon decided to follow the Rabbinical Jews instead. But I understand why though. Because during the period of rationalism, which sprung Protestantism, the only Jewish Bible to be had was the Masoretic Text.

Adstar said:

The dogma of purgatory is the denail of the sufficency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

For a Christian who believes in the Atonement of Jesus they do not need any purging because Jesus paid the price for their sins .. But for people who do not believe that Jesus paid the price for their sins they need a dogma of purgatory in their religion as a place they can go to and get their sins purged..

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The passages quoted in the OP are quite descriptive of the Catholic understanding of Purgatory... which is a denial of nothing, really, least of all the sufficiency of Our Lord's sacrifice.

I find that the loudest objections to Purgatory are frequently rooted in a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of it.

thecolorsblend said:

The passages quoted in the OP are quite descriptive of the Catholic understanding of Purgatory... which is a denial of nothing, really, least of all the sufficiency of Our Lord's sacrifice.

I find that the loudest objections to Purgatory are frequently rooted in a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of it.

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I think i have the catholic churches stance pretty well defined.. As an ex catholic who took part in confessing my sins to my priest and doing the penance requiored of me.. I know the works salvation mindset..

From the collins dictionary Penance definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
Word origin of 'penance'
C13: via Old French from Latin paenitentia repentance; related to Latin poena penalty..
Volintary self- punishment to atone for a sin.crime ect

Who needs the atonement of Jesus when you can atone for your own sins by doing penance..

And then there is the famous speech by the ""infallible pope"" Urban the second when he sent the catholic crusaders off to take Jerusalem::

"""""... this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder one another, that you wage war, and that frequently you perish by mutual wounds. Let therefore hatred depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre; wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves ... God has conferred upon you above all nations great glory in arms. Accordingly undertake this journey for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the imperishable glory of the Kingdom of heaven.""""

Again who needs the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ for the remission of ones sins when the (infallible according to catholic dogma) Pope declared that men can provide remission for their own sins by engaging in war against the wicked race of unbelievers..

Adstar said:

I think i have the catholic churches stance pretty well defined.. As an ex catholic who took part in confessing my sins to my priest and doing the penance requiored of me.. I know the works salvation mindset..

From the collins dictionary Penance definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
Word origin of 'penance'
C13: via Old French from Latin paenitentia repentance; related to Latin poena penalty..
Volintary self- punishment to atone for a sin.crime ect

Who needs the atonement of Jesus when you can atone for your own sins by doing penance..

And then there is the famous speech by the ""infallible pope"" Urban the second when he sent the catholic crusaders off to take Jerusalem::

"""""... this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder one another, that you wage war, and that frequently you perish by mutual wounds. Let therefore hatred depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre; wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves ... God has conferred upon you above all nations great glory in arms. Accordingly undertake this journey for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the imperishable glory of the Kingdom of heaven.""""

Again who needs the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ for the remission of ones sins when the (infallible according to catholic dogma) Pope declared that men can provide remission for their own sins by engaging in war against the wicked race of unbelievers..

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For someone who claims to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you display a total lack of understanding what the Catholic Church teaches.

With respect, Purgatory is the subject at hand in this thread (and my post).

Thus, please do not change the subject to Penance, which is unrelated to Purgatory.

Thanks!

Hey I did a formal debate on this. I wish I could have known about the Jewish resources back then.

Check it out

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...f-purgatory-athanasias-uphill-battle.7334575/

And From Jewish resources

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory