Scriptural Common Sense Versus Confusion

[Cubes]

Hi All,


Introduction:

I recently started compiling a list of what I perceive to be confusion related to the Trinity Doctrine and Modalism compared to Scripture. I would be adding to the list at random, and I invite others to contribute as well.

My point of view is opened to challenge and refutation, but I am not sure if it would be better to do that (debated) in this thread or existing ones. It may be advisable to respond initially and refer the debate to another thread where discussions on the particular subject would be ongoing and detailed. Page numbers would be helpful in that case. Which ever is easier. The reason being is that, the content of this thread would vary but hopefully should serve to show that YHWH alone is supreme above all and Jesus Christ, Lord of all. (1 cor 8:4-6).

Look forward to contributions and discussion. I plan to respond but may take a few days between posts.

Lastly, my preliminary posts are my own, albeit copied from another forum.

 

[Cubes]

Double Standard:


Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

How is it that Trinitarians uphold the above verse to be unreservedly true in proving that Jesus is the eternal God but the same does not hold true when Jesus says it of his God?

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.


Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

"That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged."*

 

[Cubes]

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Does the invisible God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ have a mother, sister and brother? If so where can we find that information?

 

[Cubes]

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


I pray that this would be true of us as we all come into the knowledge of Christ and grow in the unity of the faith.


Trinitarians take the statement of Jesus, "I and my Father are one" to mean that Jesus is the literal being (if a different person) of the Living God. One and the same!

Since all those that are in Christ are also the Body of Christ and living stones of the temple which builder is God of which Christ is the chief cornerstone, that makes us one with Christ, just as he said.


Implications of the verses above for the 3 in 1 doctrine:

The persons involved definitely exceed 3 given the sheer number of Jesus' followers throughout history.
The countless persons must be equally regarded as the 1 pluralistic being known as Trinity.

Thus taken the Trinitarian way, that would make christians literally the being of Christ, and if that, then literally the being of YHWH, possessing all majesty, power, glory, infiniteness, infallibility etc at all times. We all know this is false.

For this reason I propose that the Trinitarian interpretation of John 10:30 is erroneous: two or more scriptures bearing the same principles interpreted the same way show that we cannot be Jesus or YHWH. And neither is Jesus YHWH.


Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Cubes]

If three persons are one being who make up The Lord God Almighty, what happened to this configuration here and why isn't Jesus counted as part of God here? Did he cease to be YHWH while on earth then because he laid aside his glory, if so, was God complete in a 2/3 configuration? If so, doesn't that also show that the 2/3 can be God without Jesus or was God incomplete with Jesus being on earth and becoming a man? And if so, how does that affect the scripture below and the general understanding presented to us in scripture?



Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

[Cubes]

Confusion:

According to the Trinity Doctrine:

Person #1 is YHWH
Person #2 is YHWH
Person #3 is YHWH

Ok. Why do we have to have person #2 ask person #1 to send person #3 when they are the same person anyway!

Why can't we just ask anyone of them to come and have HIM show up? Why the relay of the same person? Relay of one between ONE? Hmmm.... I think not.


How about the scriptural version?

The Father is the giver of his own spirit to those born into his family, to those who obey him. By this He becomes our Father and Jesus our firstborn brother.
Jesus is the mediator whom the father has appointed to stand between himself and us. Jesus the only begotten Son of the Father, YHWH.

Thus Person and being (#1) is YHWH, The Father. The Spirit is his alone to give, and his in origin.

Person and being (#2) is Jesus Christ, the Son of YHWH. He has been appointed by his Father and God to mediate for us. He asks the Father to send us His (The Father's) Spirit and is able to breathe on the apostles to impart the Spirit, and the apostles are able to lay hands on others and impart the same spirit, as hopefully we can and shall if we believe and obey, being one in Christ and with the Father. Hallelujah!

There is no person #3 which is why we only find the Father on the throne, and Jesus beside him. The Spirit is part and parcel of the Father and in all those that are his, starting with his anointed, his Christ.


Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,


Luk 4:18 The Spirit of ADONEY YAHOVIH [is] upon me, because YHWH hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; YHWH hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of YHWH.


Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.


Isa 61:1 The Spirit of Adoney Yahovih[is] upon me; because YHWH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; YHWH hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of YHWH, and the day of vengeance of our `ELOHIYM; to comfort all that mourn;Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of YHWH, that he might be glorified.

 

[Swart]

Confusion:

According to the Trinity Doctrine:

Person #1 is YHWH
Person #2 is YHWH
Person #3 is YHWH

I'm not Trinitarian but I believe this is a misrepresentation of Trinitarian belief. This sounds more like Modalism.

According to the Trinity:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Ghost is God

The Father is not the Son
The Father is not the Holy Ghost
The Son is not the Holy Ghost

If you want to disagree with a belief, you need to articulate it to the satisfaction of the adherents. Otherwise you are creating a strawman.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I'm not Trinitarian but I believe this is a misrepresentation of Trinitarian belief. This sounds more like Modalism.

According to the Trinity:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Ghost is God

The Father is not the Son
The Father is not the Holy Ghost
The Son is not the Holy Ghost

If you want to disagree with a belief, you need to articulate it to the satisfaction of the adherents. Otherwise you are creating a strawman.[/SIZE]

Hear, Hear!

 

[Orontes]

Confusion:

According to the Trinity Doctrine:

Person #1 is YHWH
Person #2 is YHWH
Person #3 is YHWH

Hello,

I agree with Swart and Der Alter. The above is not a model any Trinitarian would agree to. To properly discuss the Trinity you may want to think about the Cappadocian formula: "Three Hypostases in one Ousia" as you explore this notion it should help you understand the Trinitarian stance.

 

[Cubes]

Thanks for the above three inputs... and I may stand to think on that particular one some more. Still, I disagree with you at the moment for this reason:

Trinitarians and myself agree that there is only one God, right? That is One Almighty God to be specific. The name of that God is YHWH as far as I know. He has other names such as Ancient of Days, or Most High God.... titles, if you will. But YHWH is the name.

Distinct or not, Trinitarians at the end of the day, as far as I've understood them through debating, consider the Holy Spirit and Jesus to be this one God. Three persons in one being. That is One Being. If this were not their doctrine, I'd agree with them.

Jesus is most definitely A God. A great God but not the Most High God. Secondly, he is not the same being as the Father, who is the One God in question. It is for this reason that Trinitarianism is false. Trinitarianism equalizes Father and Son and presses them into one mold and refuses to let the rest of us in when the bible says that we are in. Addendum: In so doing, denies the Son and denies the Father at the end of the day. Bottomline.

Since the Spirit is not a person, I shall let that go for now. Yes, the spirit speaks, etc. Because God speaks and that's how he speaks to us by his own spirit. If the spirit is the Father, I will not dispute it but I perceive it more specifically, as the Father'S spirit.... e.g. the Father's glory, the Father's radiance, the Father's power, etc. The sum total of the Father is greater and contains his spirit, thus he can send his spirit or impart it, or give it.

 

[Cubes]

I'm not Trinitarian but I believe this is a misrepresentation of Trinitarian belief. This sounds more like Modalism.

According to the Trinity:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Ghost is God

The Father is not the Son
The Father is not the Holy Ghost
The Son is not the Holy Ghost

If you want to disagree with a belief, you need to articulate it to the satisfaction of the adherents. Otherwise you are creating a strawman.

Hi Swart: I appreciate your input and impartiality on this and hope you'll stick around and also tell me if I am wrong in my belief that the Trinity Doctrine claims YHWH to be the One God in three persons.

YHWH is the ONE Most High God above whom there is no other. If Trinitarians do not consider Jesus to be that Most High God, then the argument is resolved but I believe that my post in question rightly represents the point when you consider it, for the simple reason that the name of the ONE GOD is YHWH.

 

[buddy mack]

Hi All,


Introduction:

I recently started compiling a list of what I perceive to be confusion related to the Trinity Doctrine and Modalism compared to Scripture. I would be adding to the list at random, and I invite others to contribute as well.

My point of view is opened to challenge and refutation, but I am not sure if it would be better to do that (debated) in this thread or existing ones. It may be advisable to respond initially and refer the debate to another thread where discussions on the particular subject would be ongoing and detailed. Page numbers would be helpful in that case. Which ever is easier. The reason being is that, the content of this thread would vary but hopefully should serve to show that YHWH alone is supreme above all and Jesus Christ, Lord of all. (1 cor 8:4-6).

Look forward to contributions and discussion. I plan to respond but may take a few days between posts.

Lastly, my preliminary posts are my own, albeit copied from another forum.

religions.