Scriptural Christianity

St_Worm2 said:

Hello again ForAllTruth, hating the sinful things of this world (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and/or the boastful pride of life) is hardly the same thing as "hating" one's parents, spouse and/or children, all of whom the Bible commands us to love and/or honor, yes?

Which is why you asked us to interpret 1 John 3 out-of-context (something which I believe is impossible if arriving at a proper exegesis of the Chapter is the intended goal ).

On the other hand, I agree with you that there is any easy answer to this seeming contradiction (between what is said in 1 John 1/1 John 2 and 1 John 3), but I suspect that your "easy" answer and mine will be quite different

Before I comment further, I have a couple of questions for you about the above (for clarity's sake) if you don't mind.

First, is the "concept" of which you speak the "sinless perfection" of believers who are still living on this side of the grave? If not, what is it?

Second, do you believe that at least some true believers/Christians can sin once they are saved (justified) by God (at least every once in awhile anyway), or do you believe that such a person (a person who 1. claims to be a Christian but 2. continues to sin from time to time) is actually NOT saved?

Thanks for your help

--David

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The full context will only confirm the basic fact that there is a power spoken of that those who have a form of godliness lack (referring to 2 Timothy 3:5-7). This is the key that unlocks the Scriptures and is the miraculous ability to avoid sin. There is also the much neglected doctrine of Jesus' on-going prayerful intersession for the elect. When Jesus prays for the elect He gets totally perfect results as in Hebrews 7:25 (pay special attention here to the phrase "save completely" - save from what? Sin!). He is the resurrection as in John 11:25. Those who have the Son have eternal life (referring to 1 John 5:12).

Now, how and when this all of this works out temporally is less spelled-out but the general thrust of the Bible is that one who abides in Christ will not sin because in Him there is no sin (thinking along with 1 John 3:5).

I think we have both had these discussions before with other people. So, I am trying to avoid giving my opinion as a mere man. I just want you to ponder your prior commitments to a particular way of reconciling verses seeming to be at odds with each other as it is historically understood and taught by the clergy (even those reformed). And after doing so, try to see how it would be very easy without these prior commitments to just let the text speak for itself. I know you think you already do that. But that is where this power from God in a miraculous way will need to overcome natural instincts of how to understand the Bible.

Can someone who is "saved" sin occasionally?

Can an elect and not yet justified person still sin? Yes
Can a justified/converted/convicted (not sure which word to pick) yet unregenerate person still sin? Maybe, unintentionally; Thinking he is doing right but messing up.

Can a regenerate person still sin? 1 John 5:18 is your straight from the Word answer.

Did the reformers infallibly define the "order of salvation" so that we can answer these tough questions more accurately using their framework? I doubt it.

Finally, someone (you) said sinless perfection. It had to happen, I guess. God obviously ordained it like all other events in history. Praise be to Him! Jesus had it for sure. And then we see this verse in 1 John.

1 John 4:17

It even has the word perfect in it. How appropriate is that.

Again, it seems to me that man doesn't miss what the text teaches so much as that man doesn't like what the text teaches. I really believe that if it were possible we (I am speaking as a fool) would just change the text to match our theology.

St_Worm2 said:

Unfortunately, I need to go right now, so I'll need to reply to your post tomorrow night or Monday. I think that we may need to get ourselves on the same page concerning some of the terminology that you just used in the quote above first however .. so I'll start there when I return.

One quick question that comes to mind (about the Apostle John), do you believe that he was a true or regenerate believer when he wrote 1 John?

Thanks!

Talk to you soon (Dv).

--David

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1 John 3:14 seems to suggest strongly that the author was regenerate.

Also, I think it is obvious that 1 John is black and white no gray area to be sinner and saint at the same time.

The question is...
Is this for literary effect/impact?
or
Is it truly this way?

I think you know which way I take it.

David,

I will read it closer, tomorrow evening, Lord willing. But at first glance I see nothing presented in your last post that presupposes that mature believers (i.e. those born-again) will sin. So, nothing to cast doubt on the plain meaning of 1 John 5:18.

I think the context simply instructs what to do IF a person sins.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello again ForAllTruth, the reason that I asked you whether or not you believed the Apostle John was regenerate at the time of the writing of 1 John is because of the inclusion of himself in the following passage (among many others). For what it's worth, I believe that he was the very first NT (regenerate) believer following the Lord's resurrection .. see John 20:8.

As far as it being possible for a true/regenerate believer to be simul justus et peccator (as Martin Luther famously said), I'll stick to 1 John to consider that possibility for right now.

Please take special note of the words in bold below, as they tell us who the Apostle was both writing to and/or about concerning sin (as well the important use by the Apostle of the Greek present tense and what that helps us understand about what is being said here).

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
​

In quick summary, the above was written to believers at all levels of spiritual maturity in the church. In fact, the (now elder) Apostle John includes ~himself~ in the mix of those who need to continually confess their ongoing sins to God whenever they commit them (to be forgiven and cleansed of them so that full fellowship w/God and the (as King David put it) "joy of Thy salvation" .. Psalms 51:12, can be restored to them).

We are also told that "we have (present and ongoing) an Advocate" .. 1 John 2:1 who speaks to the Father on our behalf whenever we sin (and that He is/will always be, present and ongoing, the propitiation for the sins that we commit .. 1 John 2:2).

I'll stop here (as this is more than plenty to consider for now ).

The next thing is to move on to why 1 John 3 does not contradict what is said above in 1 John 1/1 John 2, as well the additional, Biblical evidence (the Bible is replete with it) concerning the ongoing sins of true believers (and what we are commanded to do about them, to avoid them or to remedy them).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - how a person (who claims to be a believer) responds to his/her ongoing sin is a big part of the evidence that tells us if they are ~truly~ "in Christ" (and thereby, that their "claim" is authentic), or if they are simply/sadly CINO instead. This is, in point of fact, part of the test that we are admonished to take (2 Corinthians 13:5) that helps us know the truth about our own salvation

As theologian/pastor A. W. Pink once said,

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There is nothing presented here that would even begin to seem to contradict 1 John 5:18.

All you have demonstrated is that a true-believer might still sin. I do NOT disagree. They don't have to sin on any given occasion where temptation might present itself, however.

In order to have anything that would seem to be contrary to 1 John 5:18 it would need to be a statement that someone who is regenerate still might sin.

I think you are assuming that all true believers are regenerate. I know of no passage that would lead us to believe that. It is a theological assumption. But after diligent study I think that the Bible only makes sense in total when we admit that followers of Jesus can really and truly believe the gospel and the Holy Spirit can do much in the area of grace and favor toward a person (giving light) but stop short of actual regeneration (as the Holy Writ defines it). This would help us see why the Bible talks about people believing for a season and then falling away with only the elect finishing the race as it is ordained/predestined for only them to achieve final salvation.

Soyeong said:

According to 1 John 3, they way to be born again is by obeying God's law/commandments/practicing righteousness/believing in the name of the son/loving one another/refraining from sin in transgression of God's law.

A chip off the old block is someone who has the same character or nature as their father, which is expressed through do the same works as him, and this is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God insofar as the Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so that is also the sense that we are children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through follow his example in accordance with the Spirit. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did. The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature, so this is why those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:4-14) and why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to it are not born again as children of God (1 John 3:10).

The way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of the Son, so when we practice righteousness or express other aspects of God's nature in obedience to God's law in accordance with the Son's example, we are expressing the believe that the Son is righteous, or in other words, we are believing in the name of the Son, which is why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to His commandments. Likewise, when we express aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law in accordance with the Son's example, we are expressing our love for those aspects of who God is, so all of the laws that God specifically chose to give were given because they intrinsically teach us how to love different aspects of God's nature, which is why there are many verses that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments. Furthermore, when we are doing this, that is the way in which we are like him and are abiding in God.

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Isn't it actually the way to avoid all sin is to be born again? 1 John 3:9 1 John 5:18

fhansen said:

But, while technically possible by the power of the Spirit, I suppose, do you think absolute sinless perfection is a practical option in this life?

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Those verses and many more highly suggest that!