Scriptural Authority - is it backed by the Scriptures ?

[New_Wineskin]

Ok . Here it is . There are several doctrines concerning the Scriptures . Are they backed by the Scriptures or are they self-contradictory ?

So , using the same criteria as those who claim Sola Scriptura and Scriptural Authority , what passages back up these doctrines . And , since it is Scriptures Only and the Scriptures are to be selfinterpreting , I expect those to be honored by those with support .


To kick it off , 2 Timothy 3:16 says nothing about authority nor about the Scriptures alone on anything .

Seriously , I would really like to know if anyone has support for these doctrines .

 

[StormyOne]

Where did this concept originate?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Where did this concept originate?

Well , that would help to answer the question , wouldn't it ?

Those that claim these concepts to be true would , by necessity , state that they are from the Scriptures . I am asking them what passages to which they refer .

If one can identify a time and place and person from whom these concepts come , it would not be by the Scriptures and would refute the concepts .

 

[StormyOne]

Well , that would help to answer the question , wouldn't it ?

Those that claim these concepts to be true would , by necessity , state that they are from the Scriptures . I am asking them what passages to which they refer .

If one can identify a time and place and person from whom these concepts come , it would not be by the Scriptures and would refute the concepts .

Let me be the devil's advocate for a moment.... Psalms... thy word have I hid in my heart that I won't sin againsts thee..... is that providing the premise for scriptural authority?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Let me be the devil's advocate for a moment.... Psalms... thy word have I hid in my heart that I won't sin againsts thee..... is that providing the premise for scriptural authority?

Thank you , for your post .

In a word , "no" - I don't see this as providing the premise for Scriptural authority for quite a few reasons .

1) the author does not state by "word" that they are referring to the Scriptures . If the author was doing this , more of the passage would be presented . This is one of the most important points . The term "word" is used by Christians so frequently for the Scriptures , many tend to automatically interpret "word" as "the Scriptures" while reading the Scriptures unless the context makes it idiotic . "Word" is singular - the Scriptures are plural in nature . Since the Scriptures are to interpret themselves , they must be clear as to what they refer ( according to that particular doctrine ) .

2) *If* the author was speaking of the Scriptures , they would be speaking of the Torah only as that would be the only group of Scriptures at the time that would be referred to in the singular . For any other writings , one would need passages for those as well .

3) The author is not stating that this idea was for anyone else but themself - let alone *everyone* else for all time .

4) The author does not exclude other things as helping them in their righteous living . ( The passage does not help in the idea of Scripture *only* ) .

5) The author does not state that they are obeying because of any inherent authority of the" word" itself ( whatever it is ) .

6) Going back to 2) . *If* the author is discussing the Torah ( ie the available Scriptures at the time that could be assumed to have authority ) , the Torah is clear that its commands were for the physical descendants of the Israelites who were in attendance at the writing of the Torah . We can also look at the writings of Acts , Paul , and the author of Hebrews with regards to obtaining righteousness by observing the Torah and their having no desire to place the Law on Gentile believers .

7) *If* the Torah is being referred to in that passage *and* can be considered to show Scriptural authority , then why are those who claim the doctrine not obeying this authority and putting those who break the Sabbath laws as defined by other parts of the Torah ? This is a huge sticking point . *Why* are they saying that they are authoritative with one side of their mouths and then refuse to obey certain portions thus denying the authority of other parts ?

8) *If* that passage was discussing Scriptural authority and was the first to do so , all of those living before that passage was written were free from Scriptural Authority . We can then go to Paul's argument that Abraham was credited as being righteous 400 years before the Law came into being . We now have another three to four hundred years between the time that the Torah was written and the time that your passage was written .

If the doctrine is so important , it should be clear and even consistant . That is the whole idea behind the doctrine of the Scriptures interpreting themselves . That passage says nothing of authority nor of their being the only authority or source of doctrine .

But , thanks for the example . I appreciate your trying . I really am open . Yet , if it were clear , I would be able to find hundreds of websites telling of the clarity . And , there would be no question as to what the sources were saying .

 

[WAB]

2 Tim.3:16,17.... "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...." or, as several translations have it... "...is breathed out by God..." "...and is profitable for doctrine (teaching), for reproof (or correction, which to be legitimate must come from an authoritative source), for correction (ditto),for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete (or mature), thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Most would agree that that which God "...breathed out..." would have been in the form of words understood by the writers of Scripture, and which they then wrote down per His instruction. In which case it is not in error to label the Scriptures "the Word of God", for indeed they are, whether dictated originally in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Scriptures, but that truth is easily arrived at by diligent study of those same God-breathed Scriptures. That which Almighty God has spoken is authoritative, and profitable for the one who obeys His Word.
WAB

 

[New_Wineskin]

2 Tim.3:16,17.... "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...." or, as several translations have it... "...is breathed out by God..." "...and is profitable for doctrine (teaching), for reproof (or correction, which to be legitimate must come from an authoritative source), for correction (ditto),for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete (or mature), thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Most would agree that that which God "...breathed out..." would have been in the form of words understood by the writers of Scripture, and which they then wrote down per His instruction. In which case it is not in error to label the Scriptures "the Word of God", for indeed they are, whether dictated originally in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

It most certainly *is* in error to call the Scriptures ( plural ) "the word of God" ( singular ) . First of all , we have the idea that this is a singular term referencing a plural term . Second , the term "word of God" is used quite a few times in the Scriptures and , as such , it causes confusion when a new Christian reads them and actually thinks that the term in the Scriptures references the Scriptures . Third and most importantly , the term is used in the Scriptures for several things - *none* of which is for *all* of the Scriptures - at best , the Troah only . Because of this , using *the* before "word of God" makes no sense unless there is sufficient context and clarifying that one is discussing *a* particular "word of God" .

The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Scriptures, but that truth is easily arrived at by diligent study of those same God-breathed Scriptures.

Ah , but we are discussing a term that *is* used in the Scriptures which people use for something that the Scriptures *do not* describe with that term . Also , "easily arrived by" is not equal to "being included" . Trinity is not clearly in the Scriptures and cannot be considered a part of the Scriptures . While I agree with a trinitarian concept , the fact that groups deny it but also agree with Scriptural authority shows that the Scriptures do not clearly state the Trinity . Something outside of the Scriptures must do something to bring that concept .

That which Almighty God has spoken is authoritative, and profitable for the one who obeys His Word.
WAB

Which "word" ? It isn't the Scriptures . If so , why isn't there a passage stating such ? The passage that you quoted says nothing about authority nor about obedience nor does it call the Scriptures "His word" . One *might* call them *some* of His *words* but "the word" doesn't match .

Since you need to interpret that passage in an attempt to squeeze authority out of it , you violate the doctrine of the Scriptures interpreting themselves . It isn't "my" doctrine - it is the doctrine of those that don't want extra words to describe what the Scriptures supposedly are able to describe all by themselves . If extra description is needed , it shows that the Scriptures are not sufficient ( another typially stated doctrine ) .

Back to authority ... since the Scriptures are considered authoritative by you , why do you and others refuse the authority of the passage stating to put to death those that break the Sabbath ? If that passage has no authority , then none have authority . The doctrine is all inclusive . Excusing any command leaves them all open for excusing . Any passage used in excusing the command would also indicate a contradition of the Scriptures . The command is clear - the command in the book of the Law is for "all generations" so there is no time limit . But , who is obeying the command ? Certainly none who *claim* that the Scriptures have authority and should be obeyed .

 

[New_Wineskin]

I am not asking for anything difficult here . I am only *asking* what people promting these doctrines *demand* ... Scripture Only that is not interpreted that states that the Scriptures have authority and they are the only source on which doctrines are to be based .

There are books on this issue . WHY ? Scripture only . Three passages ( following the Three Witness rule ) - no explanation - clear and simple stating that the Scriptures are authoritative for a Gentile .

My side issue is still : Why do people claiming that Scriptural Authority is valid outright refuse to obey the Scriptures they don't like ?

If those who claim these doctrines go to any other thread , they would *insist* that doctrines are based on Scriptures only and that they *clearly* state what the doctrine states . Why can't they do what they demand of others ? Seriously !! There has to be something .

 

[breezynosacek]

First of all, although I think you have valid questions, they cannot be answered simply with just a few posts. First of all, it requires faith to believe and that point is not negotiable. You either believe the Gospel of Christ or you don't.

If you believe the Gospel, then you believe the testimony given about Him. And if you believe the testimony about Him, then you would believe the rest of the Bible as being authoritative because what is written about Christ, the Word, is that HE is the Word, All things were created through Him and by Him and that He comes from the Father. That He was given authority. That His authority comes from the Father.

That He promised the Holy Spirit to us who would teach us and declare to us ALL things. That is how we can say that the Scriptures are True and are no falsehood. That is how we can testify that these Scriptures are the Word of God and are true. That is why they have authority. But it is only to those that believe, that can see these things. Whose eyes and ears have been opened. Do you believe? OR are you wanting a debate. I don't debate because it is fruitless.

John 1:1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

So, when is the first record of the Word? Which John says is Christ?

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.

That is the first written record of God's Words.
John 1:2 He was present originally with God.

John 1:3 All things were made {and} came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

John 1:4 In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

John 1:5 And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it].


Gen 1:4 And God saw that the light was good (suitable, pleasant) {and} He approved it; and God separated the light from the darkness.

You could take this passage as literal and symbolic at the same time. The point I am trying to make is that when God opens His mouth, His expression is the Word, Christ. You will find that principle throughout the Word of God, OT and NT.
John 1:6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

John 1:7 This man came to witness, that he might testify of the Light, that all men might believe in it [adhere to it, trust it, and rely upon it] through him.

John 1:8 He was not the Light himself, but came that he might bear witness regarding the Light.

John 1:9 There it was--the true Light [was then] coming into the world [the genuine, perfect, steadfast Light] that illumines every person.

John 1:10 He came into the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him [did not know Him].

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament [the expanse of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below] from the waters [above].

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be collected into one place [of standing], and let the dry land appear. And it was so.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth put forth [tender] vegetation: plants yielding seed and fruit trees yielding fruit whose seed is in itself, each according to its kind, upon the earth. And it was so.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs {and} tokens [of God's provident care], and [to mark] seasons, days, and years,

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly {and} swarm with living creatures, and let birds fly over the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creeping things, and [wild] beasts of the earth according to their kinds. And it was so.

Gen 1:26 God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth.

John 1:11 He came to that which belonged to Him [to His own--His domain, creation, things, world], and they who were His own did not receive Him {and} did not welcome Him.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive {and} welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name--

John 1:13 Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]

John 1:14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.

John 1:15 John testified about Him and cried out, This was He of Whom I said, He Who comes after me has priority over me, for He was before me. [He takes rank above me, for He existed before I did. He has advanced before me, because He is my Chief.]

John 1:16 For out of His fullness (abundance) we have all received [all had a share and we were all supplied with] one grace after another {and} spiritual blessing upon spiritual blessing {and} even favor upon favor {and} gift [heaped] upon gift.

John 1:17 For while the Law was given through Moses, grace (unearned, undeserved favor and spiritual blessing) and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; {the only} {unique Son}, {or} the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

So, Christ in the flesh, is the interpretation of Christ the Word.

Matt 7:29 For He was teaching as {One} Who had [and was] authority, and not as [did] the scribes.

Matt 9:6 But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins {and} remit the penalty, He then said to the paralyzed man, Get up! Pick up your sleeping pad and go to your own house.

Matt 28:18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Mark 1:22 And they were completely astonished at His teaching, for He was teaching as One Who possessed authority, and not as the scribes.

John 2:13 Now the Passover of the Jews was approaching, so Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 2:14 There He found in the temple [enclosure] those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers sitting there [also at their stands].

John 2:15 And having made a lash (a whip) of cords, He drove them all out of the temple [enclosure]--both the sheep and the oxen--spilling {and} scattering the brokers' money and upsetting {and} tossing around their trays (their stands).

John 2:16 Then to those who sold the doves He said, Take these things away (out of here)! Make not My Father's house a house of merchandise (a marketplace, a sales shop)!

John 2:17 And His disciples remembered that it is written [in the Holy Scriptures], Zeal (the fervor of love) for Your house will eat Me up. [I will be consumed with jealousy for the honor of Your house.]

John 2:18 Then the Jews retorted, What sign can You show us, seeing You do these things? [What sign, miracle, token, indication can You give us as evidence that You have authority and are commissioned to act in this way?]

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, Destroy (undo) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

John 2:20 Then the Jews replied, It took forty-six years to build this temple (sanctuary), and will You raise it up in three days?

John 2:21 But He had spoken of the temple which was His body.

John 5:26 For even as the Father has life in Himself {and} is self-existent, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself {and} be self-existent.

John 5:27 And He has given Him authority {and} granted Him power to execute (exercise, practice) judgment because He is a Son of man [very man].

John 7:17 If any man desires to do His will (God's pleasure), he will know (have the needed illumination to recognize, and can tell for himself) whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking from Myself {and} of My own accord {and} on My own authority.

John 8:28 So Jesus added, When you have lifted up the Son of Man [on the cross], you will realize (know, understand) that I am He [for Whom you look] and that I do nothing of Myself (of My own accord or on My own authority), but I say [exactly] what My Father has taught Me.


1 John 5:6 This is He Who came by (with) water and blood [His baptism and His death], Jesus Christ (the Messiah)--not by (in) the water only, but by (in) the water and the blood. And it is the [Holy] Spirit Who bears witness, because the [Holy] Spirit is the Truth.

1 John 5:7 So there are three witnesses {in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;}

1 John 5:8 {and there are three witnesses on the earth:} the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides].

1 John 5:9 If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son.

1 John 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] has the testimony [possesses this divine attestation] within himself. He who does not believe God [in this way] has made Him out to be {and} represented Him as a liar, because he has not believed (put his faith in, adhered to, and relied on) the evidence (the testimony) that God has borne regarding His Son.

1 John 5:11 And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5:12 He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life.

1 John 5:13 I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.

John 15:25 But [this is so] that the word written in their Law might be fulfilled, They hated Me without a cause.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) comes, Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth Who comes (proceeds) from the Father, He [Himself] will testify regarding Me.

John 15:27 But you also will testify {and} be My witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:7 However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you].

John 16:8 And when He comes, He will convict {and} convince the world {and} bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:

John 16:9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me];

John 16:10 About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer;

John 16:11 About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged {and} condemned {and} sentence already is passed upon him.


John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce {and} declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
John 16:14 He will honor {and} glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

1 John 5:6 This is He Who came by (with) water and blood [His baptism and His death], Jesus Christ (the Messiah)--not by (in) the water only, but by (in) the water and the blood. And it is the [Holy] Spirit Who bears witness, because the [Holy] Spirit is the Truth.

1 John 5:7 So there are three witnesses {in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;}

1 John 5:8 {and there are three witnesses on the earth:} the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides].

1 John 5:9 If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son.

1 John 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] has the testimony [possesses this divine attestation] within himself. He who does not believe God [in this way] has made Him out to be {and} represented Him as a liar, because he has not believed (put his faith in, adhered to, and relied on) the evidence (the testimony) that God has borne regarding His Son.

1 John 5:11 And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5:12 He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life.

1 John 5:13 I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.

 

[StormyOne]

Breezy,
If you don't debate why did you post? The question is this, if the bible is the word of God, why is it that christians do not adhere to everything it says? If parents have a rebellious child they are to stone it to death. Work on the sabbath, that person is to be killed. Building a new house, make sure there is a rail around the roof to keep a person from falling off... Do wear mixed fabrics, and the list goes on...

I will grant you that the bible is man's written narrative about how God interacted with humankind. It is not necessarily correct in all aspects because those who wrote didn't know or understand what we know today.....

I would also grant you that Jesus is the Word. That is significantly different that saying the bible is God's word.... God didn't write the bible for if He had, it would contain no error.....

 

[New_Wineskin]

I thank you for your attempt and your attitude . I understand what you are saying and what you are doing . However , the post violates the doctrines of "Scripture only" *and* "the Scriptures interpret themselves" . I will comment on the post in an attempt to show from where I am coming . You do misinterpret my asking about the doctrines with a lack of faith and with questioning the validity and truth of the Scriptures . I am questioning *doctrines* - not the Scriptures .

First of all, although I think you have valid questions, they cannot be answered simply with just a few posts. First of all, it requires faith to believe and that point is not negotiable. You either believe the Gospel of Christ or you don't.

This isn't about belief in the gospel . It is about the backing up of a doctrine with the doctrine itself . It doesn't take more than one post to quote a few passages of the Scriptures .

If you believe the Gospel, then you believe the testimony given about Him. And if you believe the testimony about Him, then you would believe the rest of the Bible as being authoritative because what is written about Christ, the Word, is that HE is the Word, All things were created through Him and by Him and that He comes from the Father. That He was given authority. That His authority comes from the Father.

The truth of the gospel has nothing to do with the authority of the Scriptures . The gospel existed before it was written down . Something written *about* someone is *not* proof of authority .

I do thank you for bringing up *one* instance where the Scriptures use the term "the word" which does not refer to the Scriptures .

That He promised the Holy Spirit to us who would teach us and declare to us ALL things. That is how we can say that the Scriptures are True and are no falsehood.

That shows that the Holy Spirit is authoritative - not the Scriptures . Truth or falsehood of the Scriptures is not being debated by myself . I accept their being true .

That is how we can testify that these Scriptures are the Word of God and are true. That is why they have authority. But it is only to those that believe, that can see these things. Whose eyes and ears have been opened. Do you believe? OR are you wanting a debate. I don't debate because it is fruitless.

Ok . See what you just did ? You called the Lord "the word" . Now you say that the Scriptures ( plural ) are "the word" ( singular ) . Both cannot be *the* "word" . "The" refers to a specific thing . You brought up *two* things that you call "word" and put *the* in front of it . If I brought in an apple tree and an orange tree and started talking about each in turn and calling whichever "*the* tree" without referring to *which* tree , confussion would result . Any person wanting to pay attention would bring up the fact that I was being confusing .

Being true is not being authoritative . I have a book . That is true . What authority is there in that truth ?

How can you say that you don't want a debate ? Your whole post is a debate . You are attempting to prove your position . I am not asking for a debate , either . I simply wish for people to not be liars and hypocrites and do what they demand of others with any other doctrine . That is a simple request . Your post is a good length but , up to this point , little of it is from the Scriptures . That is a violation of the Scriptures Only doctrine . Your using yur own words in this way is debating the issue but not proving with the Scriptures your points .

John 1:1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

So, when is the first record of the Word? Which John says is Christ?

Yes . John says that the specific "the word" is Jesus - *NOT* the Scriptures .

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.

That is the first written record of God's Words.

Yes ... His "words" - *NOT* *the* *word* . Also , there is a huge difference between the definition of "word" in John and "word" that you just used . "word" in John concerns a message . You are referring to specific words uttered . This adds to the confusion when people throw the word "word" around . Knowing which definition or specific "word" is referred to is important .

John 1:2 He was present originally with God.

Ok . Nothing to do with the Scriptures .

John 1:3 All things were made {and} came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

John 1:4 In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

John 1:5 And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it].

Again , nothing to do with the Scriptures or their authority or that it is appropriate that one calls them simply "the word" .

Gen 1:4 And God saw that the light was good (suitable, pleasant) {and} He approved it; and God separated the light from the darkness.

You could take this passage as literal and symbolic at the same time. The point I am trying to make is that when God opens His mouth, His expression is the Word, Christ. You will find that principle throughout the Word of God, OT and NT.

No . This is showing why people are all mixed up . There is no passage stating that Jesus comes out of the godhead's mouth when He speaks . You are now mixing *three* concepts of the word "word" . I could write a *post* or I could dig a hole for a *post* . Two different things - one *word* . If I started talking about a post and haphazardly said "post" with both meanings but not making it clear each time which I was talking about , I could easily bring in confusion . This is what you are doing .

Words that the Lord speaks are obviously "words of God" . Those written in the Scriptures are also "words of God" . But , combined , they are not "*the* word of God" . Not all of the Scriptures are quotes from the Lord . Saying that they are all "words of God" is a stretch . Jesus is referred to as "the word" but there is a specific context . In the newer writings that people call "the new testament" , "the word of God" and "the word" are almost exclusively discussing the gospel - not writings that people call "gospels" ( plural ) - but *the* gospel . And , this gospel existed before any writings .

John 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; {the only} {unique Son}, {or} the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

So, Christ in the flesh, is the interpretation of Christ the Word.

Whoa !! Christ is not divided . Christ is Christ . Where did you get this ? Doesn't matter - all of that was not about the Scriptures .

Matt 7:29 For He was teaching as {One} Who had [and was] authority, and not as [did] the scribes.

Matt 9:6 But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins {and} remit the penalty, He then said to the paralyzed man, Get up! Pick up your sleeping pad and go to your own house.

There has been absolutely no question about the Lord's authority . I was discussing the authroity of the Scriptures .

John 5:27 And He has given Him authority {and} granted Him power to execute (exercise, practice) judgment because He is a Son of man [very man].

All of the above was about the Lord's authority . I have no problem with that . He wouldn't be Lord if He had no authority .

John 7:17 If any man desires to do His will (God's pleasure), he will know (have the needed illumination to recognize, and can tell for himself) whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking from Myself {and} of My own accord {and} on My own authority.

Interesting - but , that does not refer to the Scriptures . Indeed , the Scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit doing this work - not the Scriptures .

1 John 5:6 This is He Who came by (with) water and blood [His baptism and His death], Jesus Christ (the Messiah)--not by (in) the water only, but by (in) the water and the blood. And it is the [Holy] Spirit Who bears witness, because the [Holy] Spirit is the Truth.

Yes - the Holy Spirit bears witness - not the Scriptures .

1 John 5:7 So there are three witnesses {in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;}

1 John 5:8 {and there are three witnesses on the earth:} the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides].

1 John 5:9 If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son.

"Testimony of God via the holy Spirit .

John 15:25 But [this is so] that the word written in their Law might be fulfilled, They hated Me without a cause.

No idea of authority . And , it speaks of a specific word in the Law . It does not call *all* of the Scriptures "the word" . It speaks of the word written *in* the Law . It does not call the whole Law "the word" . There is a specific word ( concept ) in the Law to which the speaker refers .

John 15:26 But when the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) comes, Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth Who comes (proceeds) from the Father, He [Himself] will testify regarding Me.

John 15:27 But you also will testify {and} be My witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Exaclty . The Holy Spirit has the authority - no mention of the Scriptures .

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce {and} declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].

Again , more evidence of the Holy Spirit being the authority and having an active role in our lives . It takes away from the authority of the Scriptures in this way instead of supporting their authority .

1 John 5:13 I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.

Yep . As the author himself states , it is the Holy Spirit who does the revealing and is the ultimate authority . His use of writings is but one tool at His disposal . And , this is proved by the section that you quoted concerning the word of mouth testimony of humans .


All of this is interesting . Yet , no mention of the Scriptures having authority . You mention that Jesus has authority and the Holy Spirit has authority . It is mentioned that the Spirit is the teacher .

Such a long post but no mention that the Scriptures ( *ALL* of the Sciptures ) have authority .

I ask again ... if *you* agree with the authority of the Sciptures , why do yuo refuse to obey clear commands contained in them ? Why are those who claim the authority of the Sciptures saying that they have no authority over them when it comes to putting to death those that break the Sabbath ? The command is simple and clear ( unlike what you have tried to do in your post ) . Yet , nothing .

I can only conclude that those who claim that the Scriptures have authority do not believe what they say . Yet , they attempt to push it on others . Without actively doing what they command , where is this so-called authority ?

Why is a command that should be clear and concise need such a long post where extrapolations are needed . That whole post had extra interpretation of the Scriptures in attempt to show proof . But , the proof is nullified by its violation of the doctrine of the Scriptures interpreting themselves .

The Scriptures are true - they are inspired by the Spirit .
I have no doubt of that . I want to know why these doctrines are violated by the people who attempt to prove them . Why can't they simply give "scripture only" and believe that the "Scriptures interpret themselves" .

Jesus is Lord . That doctrine fits the criteria . I can give clear passages that prove this ( if the doctrines of Scripture only are true ) .

 

[breezynosacek]

Breezy,
If you don't debate why did you post? The question is this, if the bible is the word of God, why is it that christians do not adhere to everything it says? If parents have a rebellious child they are to stone it to death. Work on the sabbath, that person is to be killed. Building a new house, make sure there is a rail around the roof to keep a person from falling off... Do wear mixed fabrics, and the list goes on...

I will grant you that the bible is man's written narrative about how God interacted with humankind. It is not necessarily correct in all aspects because those who wrote didn't know or understand what we know today.....

I would also grant you that Jesus is the Word. That is significantly different that saying the bible is God's word.... God didn't write the bible for if He had, it would contain no error.....

Debate and Discussion are two different animals. I will happily discuss anything.

The reason Christians do not adhere to everything it says is because they read it. They realize there is a difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. That Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant.

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, {and} they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.

Read the whole chapter on that.

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had the glad tidings [Gospel of God] proclaimed to us just as truly as they [the Israelites of old did when the good news of deliverance from bondage came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not mixed with faith (with the leaning of the entire personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) by those who heard it; {neither were they united in faith with the ones [Joshua and Caleb] who heard (did believe).}

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed (adhered to and trusted in and relied on God) do enter that rest, in accordance with His declaration that those [who did not believe] should not enter when He said, As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest; and this He said although [His] works had been completed {and} prepared [and waiting for all who would believe] from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For in a certain place He has said this about the seventh day: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.

Heb 4:5 And [they forfeited their part in it, for] in this [passage] He said, They shall not enter My rest.

Heb 4:6 Seeing then that the promise remains over [from past times] for some to enter that rest, and that those who formerly were given the good news about it {and} the opportunity, failed to appropriate it {and} did not enter because of disobedience,

Heb 4:7 Again He sets a definite day, [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice {and} when you hear it, do not harden your hearts.

Heb 4:8 [This mention of a rest was not a reference to their entering into Canaan.] For if Joshua had given them rest, He [God] would not speak afterward about another day.

Heb 4:9 So then, there is still awaiting a full {and} complete Sabbath-rest reserved for the [true] people of God;

Heb 4:10 For he who has once entered [God's] rest also has ceased from [the weariness and pain] of human labors, just as God rested from those labors peculiarly His own.

Scripture agrees with Scripture. If they were talking about a day that we call the Sabbath, then all that chose to rest could enter. Since it's a part of the Gospel message it pertains to rest in Christ. Only those that believe in Christ can enter that rest.

It is an eternal rest.

 

[breezynosacek]

I thank you for your attempt and your attitude . I understand what you are saying and what you are doing . However , the post violates the doctrines of "Scripture only" *and* "the Scriptures interpret themselves" . I will comment on the post in an attempt to show from where I am coming . You do misinterpret my asking about the doctrines with a lack of faith and with questioning the validity and truth of the Scriptures . I am questioning *doctrines* - not the Scriptures .

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This isn't about belief in the gospel . It is about the backing up of a doctrine with the doctrine itself . It doesn't take more than one post to quote a few passages of the Scriptures .



The truth of the gospel has nothing to do with the authority of the Scriptures . The gospel existed before it was written down . Something written *about* someone is *not* proof of authority .

I do thank you for bringing up *one* instance where the Scriptures use the term "the word" which does not refer to the Scriptures .




That shows that the Holy Spirit is authoritative - not the Scriptures . Truth or falsehood of the Scriptures is not being debated by myself . I accept their being true .



Ok . See what you just did ? You called the Lord "the word" . Now you say that the Scriptures ( plural ) are "the word" ( singular ) . Both cannot be *the* "word" . "The" refers to a specific thing . You brought up *two* things that you call "word" and put *the* in front of it . If I brought in an apple tree and an orange tree and started talking about each in turn and calling whichever "*the* tree" without referring to *which* tree , confussion would result . Any person wanting to pay attention would bring up the fact that I was being confusing .

Being true is not being authoritative . I have a book . That is true . What authority is there in that truth ?

How can you say that you don't want a debate ? Your whole post is a debate . You are attempting to prove your position . I am not asking for a debate , either . I simply wish for people to not be liars and hypocrites and do what they demand of others with any other doctrine . That is a simple request . Your post is a good length but , up to this point , little of it is from the Scriptures . That is a violation of the Scriptures Only doctrine . Your using yur own words in this way is debating the issue but not proving with the Scriptures your points .

Sorry for even posting then. I didn't know that you were purposely trying to confuse people or that your whole argument was a fight about semantics. I'm used to people on these forums posting confusing posts. It has been my practice not to call them idiots because they don't know how to express themselves but to try to attempt to answer them the best way I can.

Since you miscommunicated your purpose...have fun.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Sorry for even posting then. I didn't know that you were purposely trying to confuse people or that your whole argument was a fight about semantics. I'm used to people on these forums posting confusing posts. It has been my practice not to call them idiots because they don't know how to express themselves but to try to attempt to answer them the best way I can.

Since you miscommunicated your purpose...have fun.

A typical method for people making false claims ... You don't want to discuss but falsely accuse when someone doesn't agree with you . I am sorry that you are so easily confused and so allow that as an excuse to resort to blaming me for your confusion .

It is *your* whole argument to be hostile and fight concerning semantics . You deliberately used a phrase with several definitions and used the term several times at once with all of the definitions .

All I want is for anyone who *really* agrees with Scripture Only and the Scriptures interpreting themselves and Scriptural authority to do what they demand of others on those very doctrines . On *any* other topic , your post would be ripped apart far worse than I did by the Scriptural authority people because you made wide interpretations instead of allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Ok . Since any disagreement with the doctrines will bring false accusations by many of those who promote these doctrines , my only other responses in this thread will be to point to this post ( I will try to remember that ) .

To remind what my purpose is for the thread :
1) Using the doctrines of Scripture Only and the Scriptures are self-interpreting , please show me your support for your doctrine of the authority of the Scriptures . I will not comment on your support .

2) Once you consider that the support is sufficient , could you explain why people show that they *don't* agree with Scriptural authority ( even though stating that they *do* ) by refusing to obey certain Scriptural commands such as putting to death those who break the Sabbath ( as defined by the Scriptures in how the Sabbath referred to by this command is to be obeyed ) .

I will consider any questions to be rhetorical because I don't want people to think that I am attacking them .

Truthfully , I would like *all* of the passages that people think of when they consider why the Scriptures are to be an authority but also why they allow themselves to refuse their authority after so much effort to prove they do .

I could bring up the three passage rule/doctrine but I will leave that up to you ( whoever cares ) .

I thank anyone in advance who truthfully wants to explain themselves .

 

[WAB]

New_Wineskin.... You say in reply to my ref. to 2Tim. 3:16,17... "It most certainly *is* in error to call the Scriptures (plural) "the word of God" (singular)..."

May i direct your attention to John 15:25? Jesus speaking: "But this cometh to pass that the word (singular) might be fulfilled that is written in their law, 'they hated me without a cause.'" So Jesus was in error when He referred to the law given to the Israelites by God through Moses in the singular?

The above quote is from the KJV. The NKJV; NASB; ESV; Young's Literal; Wuest's Expanded Translation; Christian Counselor's New Testament and the Amplified Bible all translate John 15:25 with the singular "word".
WAB

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

2 Tim.3:16,17.... "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...." or, as several translations have it... "...is breathed out by God..." "...and is profitable ."

LOL. I quote this scripture a lot because of the phrase "profitable" or, translated more commonly as "usefull". IF Bible,or Scripture is merely "useful" and not "essential", what does this say about what is essential?

Most of the instances when scripture talks about "the word" or "the word of the Lord" it refers to personal, singular revelation. If anything is essential it is this very personal word from God - a conversation, even!

Also, to call something "breathed out by God" is very ambiguous. This phrase refers directly to Genesis when God breathed life into us and therefore refers to how "scrpiture" carries the life-essence of God. Such a phrase is all about words that are wrapped around and express the life of God. This does does imply inherent perfection, rather that perfection is within an imperfect vesel.

If this verse were a case for the perfection of scripture, it would say that scripture is "essential" and it would not be God-inspired,but God-dictated.

And, get yer greek right. The key to this passage is liberation and life. The key elements here being "breath" and "usefullness" of scripture, which an iron-clad,bible-is-dictate-by-God belief undermines!

The Gospel is all about personal and corporate responsibilty in the context of unlimited freedom in a relationship with God. Rules are written on our hearts, not in books. The book is usefull, not essential. HolySpirit is all.

 

[breezynosacek]

So, I'm guessing that after reading all of that junk that your definition of Scriptures applies only to the OT and the Law of Moses and you are asking why people on this forum, or me in particular, don't live by the Law?

I posted the Word of God, Bible, whatever you demand to call it in clear terms on that topic and I was pretty sure that what you were asking for was the Bible without having to interpret it to make it mean something. Sorry if you couldn't follow that.

What you are trying to get somebody to do, it seems, is to prove that nobody has to keep the Sabbath using texts out of the Law that it was written in, which is pretty silly.

Because the Law was a foreshadowing of something that hadn't even been fulfilled yet. IE, Jesus Christ. And, without having to get into lengthy discussions the Bible speaks for itself. What you are trying to do is just about equal to prophecy trying to explain prophecy. Fulfilled prophecy can make clear prophecy, but much prophecy can't be fully understood until it's fulfillment.

Now you are harping on Sabbath breakers and yet those that live by the rest of the Word of God instead of by the law can plainly see that Sabbath was symbolic. Just like the Tent of Meeting had so much foreshadowing and symbolism, and yet those things too, had their fulfillment in Christ. The OT fulfills the NT.

How do you expect the promise to fulfill its fulfillment???

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

Col 2:17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, {and} they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.

Heb 4:9 So then, there is still awaiting a full {and} complete Sabbath-rest reserved for the [true] people of God;

 

[StormyOne]

Let me ask Wineskin, what do you see as the role of the bible in the life of the believer? So you don't think I am trying to bait you or set you up, let me share what I think it is....

I believe the bible is a vehicle that can be used to introduce us to God. However once introduced the bible can confirm (maybe) what we are already experiencing in a relationship with God.... I think of the story of Enoch, who walked with God and was not for God took him... Enoch did not have a bible.... neither did Abraham, or Moses, or untold billions of people. I believe though that God revealed Himself to them and entered into relationship.....

So for me the bible can aid, but a relationship with God is more important than a relationship with the bible....

 

[New_Wineskin]

I am sorry , StormyOne , but as per post 15 , I will ask that you refer to post 15 .

I consider that any input of mine other than this will confuse those claiming those doctrines to be true and encourage them to respond to any new post of mine rather than sticking to the use of the Scriptures and only the Scriptures to prove their doctrines . If you wish , I can respond to your post via email or pm . I appologize again .