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Scottish Independence

theFijian

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My point was that you are holding Alex Salmond for running up the hideous UK debt. While I am no huge fan of Alex Salmond I don't think he can be held to account for that.
No I don't suppose he can be held to account for encouraging and offering support to Fred Goodwin in RBS's disasterous takeover of ABN AMRO can he. I mean being such a fiscal genius he was actually advocating "...a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity...". Also big of him to finally come clean about his ineptitude 4 years after the fact.
Even if an Independent Scotland made a complete pig's behind of their finances, it's only what the British state has already done on a bigger scale.
And then who will you blame for the state of Scotland's finances? I'm sure Salmond will be wringing as much mileage as he can out of the "it's all the fault of that lot down south" line.
Cameron or his successor in London will soon be at the EU bail-out fund asking for assistance.
Really? Honestly they're coming to us asking for money if you hadn't noticed ('us' as in the UK government, nobody is ever going to come to an independent Scotland asking for money, apart from maybe the Faroe Islands, or Shetland when they gain independence)
No it isn't a country. Britain is a country, Scotland is a romantic illusion.
Fine, romantic illusions have no claim to independence so the debate is over. Thanks for clearing things up.
 
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lismore

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And then who will you blame for the state of Scotland's finances?

If an independent Scotland were to make a complete disaster of their finances then we would be in the boat we are already in now with the UK's horrendous trillion pound debt.

I don't believe in blame, rather to pull together and work together for the sake of the country.


Fine, romantic illusions have no claim to independence so the debate is over.

I am sure there are many people like myself who would happily be British if some of the issues could be addressed.

So far I have not seen any Unionist put forward a single positive reason why we should stay in the Union. It's all negative scaremongering and whining. Like the parable of the little boy who cried wolf, people become immune to it.

:)
 
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theFijian

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If an independent Scotland were to make a complete disaster of their finances then we would be in the boat we are already in now with the UK's horrendous trillion pound debt.
Wow ok so there's no added benefit to Independence, thanks for clearing that up.
I don't believe in blame, rather to pull together and work together for the sake of the country.
Right that's why you keep invoking tales of mass imperial slaughter in the name of Great Britain.

So far I have not seen any Unionist put forward a single positive reason why we should stay in the Union.
There have been plenty but they seem to simply go over your head.
:)
 
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lismore

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Wow ok so there's no added benefit to Independence, thanks for clearing that up.

The benefit is we can try to make a good future.

The worst case scenario is that we end up where we are now, on the Titanic, in the sinking ship of debt that is Britain.

But what about the best case scenario! Scotland thrives.

Right that's why you keep invoking tales of mass imperial slaughter in the name of Great Britain.

They happened didn't they? Or is ignoring the world round us one of the requirements for Unionism?

There have been plenty but they seem to simply go over your head.
:)

Anytime you're ready start sharing some!
 
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Diane_Windsor

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As an American I couldn't care less what Scotland does. As a royal watcher though this intrigues me. If Scotland becomes a sovereign independent nation then what will they do with the Windsors? Can they go back to the Stuarts? Abolish the monarchy altogether? Perhaps it's time for me to go join that royal forum I lurk on.
 
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SithDoughnut

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As an American I couldn't care less what Scotland does. As a royal watcher though this intrigues me. If Scotland becomes a sovereign independent nation then what will they do with the Windsors? Can they go back to the Stuarts? Abolish the monarchy altogether? Perhaps it's time for me to go join that royal forum I lurk on.

It's unlikely that anything would happen - Scotland would most likely end up part of the commonwealth.
 
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Bish bash bosh

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As an American I couldn't care less what Scotland does. As a royal watcher though this intrigues me. If Scotland becomes a sovereign independent nation then what will they do with the Windsors? Can they go back to the Stuarts? Abolish the monarchy altogether? Perhaps it's time for me to go join that royal forum I lurk on.

The ruling SNP government in Scotland has insisted that the Queen remain head of state should the country become independent.


Bish
 
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lismore

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As an American I couldn't care less what Scotland does.

I don't think this is the stereotypical American view?

A lot of Americans are from Scottish descent?
 
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Diane_Windsor

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As you are an American, I think you should keep your nose out?

Which is why I have not stated my opinion (either for or against) on Scottish independence. This is for Scotland to work out for themselves :) I'm just curious on whether or not Scotland would retain the monarchy if she does become independent. Again, I'm asking the question as someone who is keenly interested in monarchies.


To Bish bash bosh thank you for actually answering my question :) Reps coming to you my friend.
 
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Diane_Windsor

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I don't think this is the stereotypical American view?

A lot of Americans are from Scottish descent?

Why wouldn't it be? How does Scottish independence concerns the affairs of the United States? :confused: I seriously doubt that most of us are even aware what is going on in Scottish politics right now especially when we are gearing up for a presidental election cycle. I only know of this issue because I'm keenly interested in monarchies (and I'm a Sean Connery fan).
 
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lismore

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Hello!

Why wouldn't it be? How does Scottish independence concerns the affairs of the United States? :confused:

Because the next time the 'coalition' of the USA and the UK invade a country in the Mid-east, the UK might no longer exist. You will have to go back into Afghanistan and Iraq alone. That's just one example.
I seriously doubt that most of us are even aware what is going on in Scottish politics right now especially when we are gearing up for a presidental election cycle. I only know of this issue because I'm keenly interested in monarchies (and I'm a Sean Connery fan).

I think the Scottish National Party had a vote at their annual conference a couple of years back on keeping the monarchy or going republic in an Independent Scotland, the monarchists won by a narrow margin.

However you have to remember that the current Queen is a very popular monarch and does a very good job.

Her successor Prince Charles and his companion Camilla are less popular.

I don't think the monarchy will survive the death of the current Queen, at least not for long.

In the long run you have the example of Ireland, who accepted a 'Free State' to get the British occupation ended, then a few years down the line proclaimed a Republic.

The Head of State has too many powers for it to be left in the hands of a hereditary loon.

:)
 
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theFijian

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The benefit is we can try to make a good future.
Complete non-sequitur
The worst case scenario is that we end up where we are now, on the Titanic, in the sinking ship of debt that is Britain.

But what about the best case scenario! Scotland thrives.
Another non-sequitur. If scotland had been independent before the current global downturn we as a nation would have been an extra 's' in the PIIGS. Funny how Salmond in years past was holding up nations like Ireland and Iceland as economic models we should be following and Salmond actively encouraged the excesses of Fred Goodwin and RBS . He is clueless and nationalists lap up his incoherent economic ramblings as though they were manna from heaven.
They happened didn't they? Or is ignoring the world round us one of the requirements for Unionism?
Which scots played an enormous part in, so it would be a requirement for independence too we have to assume.
Anytime you're ready start sharing some!
  • Currency uncertainty: So do we introduce a new currency (yeah of all the times to introduce a new currency) or do we go with the Euro (that laughing stock among currencies)? Why is it that Salmond ludicrously claims Scotland could still use Sterling and 'the UK government can't stop Scotland from using it'? Is it because he still wants to blame the UK government for any economic issues post independence? he knows a new scottish currency would be next to worthless and we'd be a country akin to destitute african nations using US dollars! Doesn't Salmond want independence or are we still to be hanging onto the coat-tails of the English?
  • RBS/HBOS: An independent Scotland could never hoped to bail out both RBS and HBOS, or would Salmond have pretended that they were actually english banks?
  • Bloated public sector: Scotland employees more people in the public sector per capita than across the rest of the uk. The public sector in scotland costs £40 million per year to run and scotland raises only £27m in revenue.
  • Edinburgh trams & the Parliament building: If you want examples of how the Scottish public sector are incapable of fiscal responsibility then look no further.
  • Alex Salmond: his claims about scottish curency (see above) and his claim that scotland could vote for political independence but still be part of the UK. Enough said.
 
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Cromulent

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Complete non-sequitur

Another non-sequitur. If scotland had been independent before the current global downturn we as a nation would have been an extra 's' in the PIIGS. Funny how Salmond in years past was holding up nations like Ireland and Iceland as economic models we should be following and Salmond actively encouraged the excesses of Fred Goodwin and RBS . He is clueless and nationalists lap up his incoherent economic ramblings as though they were manna from heaven.

Which scots played an enormous part in, so it would be a requirement for independence too we have to assume.

  • Currency uncertainty: So do we introduce a new currency (yeah of all the times to introduce a new currency) or do we go with the Euro (that laughing stock among currencies)? Why is it that Salmond ludicrously claims Scotland could still use Sterling and 'the UK government can't stop Scotland from using it'? Is it because he still wants to blame the UK government for any economic issues post independence? he knows a new scottish currency would be next to worthless and we'd be a country akin to destitute african nations using US dollars! Doesn't Salmond want independence or are we still to be hanging onto the coat-tails of the English?
  • RBS/HBOS: An independent Scotland could never hoped to bail out both RBS and HBOS, or would Salmond have pretended that they were actually english banks?
  • Bloated public sector: Scotland employees more people in the public sector per capita than across the rest of the uk. The public sector in scotland costs £40 million per year to run and scotland raises only £27m in revenue.
  • Edinburgh trams & the Parliament building: If you want examples of how the Scottish public sector are incapable of fiscal responsibility then look no further.
  • Alex Salmond: his claims about scottish curency (see above) and his claim that scotland could vote for political independence but still be part of the UK. Enough said.


There is a school of thought that says post-independence, Salmond would become irrelevant. I know at least two people who vote SNP now because they are pro-independence, but in an independent Scotland, they would vote labour.
 
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rizzla

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I'd agree with that Cromulent; the snp isnt a religion, but a broad church. I'm all for voting SNP just now, after which I'll probably go for Scottish Greens or Scottish Democratic Alliance. The good thing for me isn’t that theyre “Scottish”, but that they have a very real chance of getting into power – unlike Westminster who have democracy safely stitched up by the big three.

The points that seem to stick out for me anyway after reading ALL the posts here this morning is the Braveheart argument; that Scots only want self-determination for some romantic ideals going back 700 odd years. Thing is, the only time Braveheart is mentioned in a discussion about Scottish independence is by the Brits. Usually when they’ve already lost the argument for trying to defend the union and are about to start talking reminiscing how we all stood shoulder to shoulder to fight the Nazis and how together we’re “great”. Brits don’t do irony. ;-)

Perhaps it is comforting to imagine that Scots are so gullible that we only want independence because of some Holywood movie. Certainly more comforting than acknowledging a London-centric government should carry a health warning. Oh but wait…wasn’t it the Scots MPs who messed everything up in London? Aye right. 50 or so MPs from Scotland held the other 600 MPs to ransom.

Regarding the suggestion by an earlier poster that Americans keep their nose out, I’d agree. But then, I’d extend the same courtesy to all those not living in Scotland, for the decision to stay or go is for those living in Scotland alone to take. Yes, it will affect the whole of the UK. But it will also affect the US. A European country no longer willing to co-operate in illegal wars but whose neutrality may lead to “conventional” American wisdom being openly questioned and criticized, (eg Pan Am bombing) may lead to similar questions being raised elsewhere. A government mandated to remove the evil of nuclear weapons from with its borders certainly has a bearing on American defense, seeing as it’s the States who have the firing codes for Trident. Theres also the slight problem that the entire UK nuclear arsenal is stored 25 miles away from Glasgow – and theres nowhere else in the UK built to store them. Unfortunately flogging them on Ebay is out of the question, as is sending them back to the States as it goes against the non-proliferation treaties. More PFI hospitals, higher education bills soaring taxation going through the English & Welsh roofs as the big three build adequate nuclear storage facilities, just so they can continue to “punch above our weight” and keep their seat on the UN council. Jesus wept.
 
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rizzla

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Currency uncertainty: So do we introduce a new currency (yeah of all the times to introduce a new currency) or do we go with the Euro (that laughing stock among currencies)? Why is it that Salmond ludicrously claims Scotland could still use Sterling and 'the UK government can't stop Scotland from using it'? Is it because he still wants to blame the UK government for any economic issues post independence? he knows a new scottish currency would be next to worthless and we'd be a country akin to destitute african nations using US dollars! Doesn't Salmond want independence or are we still to be hanging onto the coat-tails of the English?
Currency uncertainty: A new scottish currency would be far from worthless as it would be based on tangible assets eg oil. Short term probability is the pound sterling will remain the currency of an independent Scotland until the Scottish people decide otherwise. The pound is our national currency just as much as it's the currency of the rest of the UK, and Scotland owns a proportional share of the central bank, the Bank of England, which underwrites that currency. As an independent state, Scotland would have just under 10% of a stake in the Bank of England, and 10% of influence. At the moment any influence Scotland has is exercised by George Osborne. 10% of influence is a damn sight more than the influence we have just now.

In any case there's no way that Westminster could prevent Scotland from using sterling. It's a fully tradeable currency, and as such any country could adopt it if it felt like it. However if Westminster did somehow force Scotland out of the pound, they'd wreak havoc on the economy of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] UK as Scotland would march off with about 10% of the Bank of England's reserves.

Ireland used the pound sterling as its currency from independence in 1922 until the Republic signed up to the ERM, the precursor to the euro. The Irish punt was worth exactly the same as the pound sterling. It was in fact the pound sterling, only in a prettier wrapping.


RBS/HBOS: An independent Scotland could never hoped to bail out both RBS and HBOS, or would Salmond have pretended that they were actually english banks?
RBS/HBOS: Actually, I’d rather they hadn’t; makes about as much sense as the British government picking up the clean up bill for BP just because “British” is in the company’s title. However, Scotland could have bailed out RBS quite easily. Scottish GDP in 2008 was an estimated £145 billion. The cost to the UK of the RBS / HBOS bail out in 2008 was £88 billion.

However the actual Scottish share on a per capita basis was £8.8 billion, and on the debt accrued by the Scottish registered banks which would have been an independent Scotland's liability is estimated at £2.4 billion. We'd only have had to cough up even that much assuming that Scotland implemented the same slash-and-burn approach to regulation of the financial sector as Westminster.

The Unionists would have us believe that we'd be bankrupted by the price of a £1 bus fare out of a London riot zone, even though we've got £75 in our pocket. And we can reasonably hope to get a refund on that bus ticket at some point in the future. It wasn't Scotland that allowed bankers to run riot, it was Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling. Brown and Darling and their ilk are effectively telling us we can't be independent because they're so bleedin' incompetent. But we already know that, which is why we're not so inclined to vote for them any more

Bloated public sector: Scotland employees more people in the public sector per capita than across the rest of the uk. The public sector in scotland costs £40 million per year to run and scotland raises only £27m in revenue.
Really? So Westminster want to keep hold of us out of the goodness of their heart? Theres a lot of good reasons why Scotland should be independent, and one of the strongest of these is economics; we put in much more than we receive. The Barnett formula was only designed to ensure that Scotland would get a similar share of the money spent in England but is now failing due to changes in the way money is allocated and spent. Eg The government is squandering millions on the Olympics yet the way its allocated means neither Scotland nor Wales will see any reciprocal benefits – even though our taxes are paying for this!


Edinburgh trams & the Parliament building: If you want examples of how the Scottish public sector are incapable of fiscal responsibility then look no further.
Agreed. But then I’m not a fan of Labour – or any other London based party for that matter.

Alex Salmond: his claims about scottish curency (see above) and his claim that scotland could vote for political independence but still be part of the UK. Enough said.
That would surprise me as the UK in effect would cease to exist, so I cant see him saying this. Perhaps you are confusing this with the British Isles? Post independence theres still going to be a lot of negotiations required, if for no other reason than many of us have family and friends south of the Tweed and don’t want to see them suffer. Whether it takes on a Council of the Isles, or some form of confederation is impossible to say. But what is certain is the days of Scotland being used as cannon fodder or some rich guys private shooting estate are gone.


What a lot of people in Scotland forget is London has had the fright to end frights, and London does not like frights. Westminster have demonstrated time and again they will react ruthlessly to anything that causes them fright. For a recent example, just look at the sentences against the rioters last summer, with the Olympics approaching riots gave Westminster a fright and Westminster struck back. Hard.

Voting for the status quo is not an option. I've got three children – that’s £100,000 Ive got to find to let them study for a degree. Even if they work hard for it, they’ll probably be forced to work for their benefits because Westminster policies which decimated four nations to protect a City means there are no jobs. London have proven themselves capable of protecting the City, the bankers & bonus schemes, but at isolation in Europe, wage freezes, austerity, lower living standards, higher fuel bills and the weakest in our society being targeted and vilified. Why on earth do you think so many people in England want their own devolved powers? London simply cannot be trusted.
 
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Malky2000

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...just so they can continue to “punch above our weight” and keep their seat on the UN council. Jesus wept.

The truth is that the members of the Security Council were appointed before anyone had nuclear weapons, not even the USA.

Trident is an obsolete relic of the Cold War era and has no place in the world today. The political illusion of having security by possessing powerful weapons dates back to our colonial past. Sadly this "Rule Britannia" mentality still lingers on today, with Westminster failing to realise that that instead of being a world power, Britain is a small semi-bankrupt island off the coast of Europe still willing to charge the British taxpayer £2.5 billion a year, for a weapon which can only be described in one word "insanity".

Although I am no fan of the Scottish National Party, I will still be voting Yes in the referendum and take some comfort in the knowledge that an independent Scotland will have no nuclear weapons. This for me is "the deal breaker". My own hope is that our armed forces will never be called upon to fight illegal foreign wars and will instead take their place in the world as a source of providing humanitarian aid wherever needed.
 
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rizzla

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There is so much that is blatantly wrong its almost difficult to know where to start.

Racism
- The referendum is “for people living in Scotland”. Not “Scots”. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, what ethnicity a person is, it doesn’t even matter where a person is born. What matters is that person has chosen to live in Scotland and should therefore have a say in the future of Scotland. Should it be for Scots alone? That IS raciest.

Or what about the Scots living outside Scotland? Oh right, like in England, France, Canada. They’ve already had a say – they chose to leave; and good luck to them. If they return prior to the referendum then of course they can vote. Racism? Well, I suppose so for those whose news if filtered through the Daily mail process this may seem raciest. But what would they propose? Giving everyone of Scottish decent the vote? Thats something like 80% of New Zealand straight away. Aside from the difficulties trying to ensure only those voting actually vote, theres also the issues of cost; a register containing a millions of names and addresses from all over the world is going to be prohibitive to put together – notice the word “prohibitive”.


As for the Englishman living in Gretna, if hes registered to vote (ie he lives there) obviously he can vote; whyever shouldn’t he?? As for the Scot in Carlislse he only works in Scotland – he doesn’t live there; so no vote. THIS is Scottish racism???? Sorry to sound flippant, but I’m old enough to be a member of the ANF and I’m genuinely sorry for anyone who suffers racism, irrespective of their nationality or ethnicity.



Let's agree that then that if the Barnett formula is good enough to use to distribute public funding to Scotland, it's good enough to distribute the public debt per capita as well.
Hey ho. Who ever said the Barnett formula was good enough? Tell you what, you give me all your wages and I’ll give you back some pocketmoney. I’ll decide how much you get, and I’ll decide what you spend it on. And if you dare to question the system I’ll resort to name calling and vilify you in the national press for daring to question my authority (and by association, my integrity). And in the meantime I’ll call you a sponger for wanting your
own money back.


I just hope that there is still enough slack in the English building industry to let us rebuild Hadrian's Wall and to charge any Scots who want to come south for the privilege.
Somehow I cant see an electrified fence, a moat and magic towers with long-haired princesses guarded by a dragons all along the border. Sadly for those of us for whom being strip-searched by big burly men sounds like ideal Saturday night entertainment, this is untrue.


There are no passport controls between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Neither are there passport controls between the UK and the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which are not only outside the UK, they're not even a part of the EU. What your saying is we’de able to visit Paris and Lisbon without passports, but we'd need a passport to go to the Metro Centre in Newcastle for a Saturday shopping trip. Aye right.

Unfortunately advocating the rebuilding of Hadrians wall is symptomatic of being British; as clueless about politics as about geography. Tell you what, you rebuild Hadrians wall and in the process give us the North of England. Personally I happen to think Cumbria is Gods wee bit of heaven here on earth, and would happily helpyou rebuild it. Just mind and leave a few holes for the water pipes :p


Just remember that the reason for the Union was that Scotland went bust in 1706. Perhaps then a more equitable adjustment of public debt might be in the proportions that there were in 1706.
Oh yes, the great Darian scheme. The Scots lords got their fingers burn due to the English blockades, but not the burghers – Scotland never went bust; but we were sold down the river by a bunch of self-serving Scots. And your point in looking back some 300 years is?



But Scottish independence is not even what the SNP want. They want to continue to be able to draw on English money for the feckless idlers in Scotland to buy their buckie on benefits because they know that all the Scots with any get up and go got up and went in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.
Just like you eh? A proud Scot.


Scotland's North Sea oil and gas revenues, with other taxes, means it gets no net subsidy from the rest of the UK. This is based upon shonky Westminster figures, which allocate a notional share of "UK national expenditure" to Scotland even though the money is actually spent in the South East of England. So we're paying for just under 10% of the bloody Olympics. Grrrr


Westminster could very easily make it clear exactly how much Scotland puts into the Union, and exactly how much we get back in return. After all, it's Westminster which collects all the money and allocates where it goes. We can assume they know who pays what and who gets what.

If Scotland was indeed hopelessly dependent on UK handouts, Westminster would publish all the figures in glorious technicolour and upload videos to YouTube, and there would be a 10 part BBC documentary all about them. This would pretty much kill the independence debate stone dead, as Scots would be able to quantify those so-called Union benefits in precise detail. But instead finding out how much Scotland pays into the Union and how much we get back takes a crack squad of industrial strength accountants on amphetamines. So it's a safe bet that we're not dependent on subsidies from Westminster after all.

 
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