Scientific proof of flood.

JohnR7 · Apr 11, 2005

raphael_aa said:
There it is again: that sanctified self righteousness that claims that it alone has the 'true' understanding of scriptures and that alternative views, no matter how carefully and prayerfully arrived at, MUST be wrong.

Nonsense this whole thing is totally testable. Give us your best PHd in physics and we will line them up against one of our sunday school students and we will ask them some questions about the Bible and we will see who knows their Bible better: the PHd or the elementary school student. We can just go to the store and buy that Bible game so that no one can accuse us of rigging the questions.

corvus_corax · Apr 11, 2005

JohnR7 said:
Oh, did we step on some toes? People usually get upset when they feel convicted.

Ah, this argument yet again.
It has nothing to do with being convicted.
Dont mistake your arrogance for the Holy Spirit convicting me. Such hubris is unbecoming.

JGMEERT · Apr 11, 2005

JohnR7 said:
Nonsense this whole thing is totally testable. Give us your best PHd in physics and we will line them up against one of our sunday school students and we will ask them some questions about the Bible and we will see who knows their Bible better: the PHd or the elementary school student. We can just go to the store and buy that Bible game so that no one can accuse us of rigging the questions.

JM: I nominate Hugh Ross as the Ph.D. physicist.

Cheers

Joe Meert

JohnR7 · Apr 11, 2005

corvus_corax said:
Ah, this argument yet again.
It has nothing to do with being convicted.
Dont mistake your arrogance for the Holy Spirit convicting me. Such hubris is unbecoming.

Whatever, you can have a hussy fit about it if you want. But I have seen plenty of people on this forum that are very unprofessional and very unscientific in their approach to and their interpretation of the Bible. It is something that we run into all the time, even though it belongs over on the apologetics board.

The fact still remains if you do not want to learn the way theologians approch scripture that is fine because you can use the scientific method to understand the Bible. So no one has a excuse, if anything a man of science is without excuse because they have the training to properly understand the scriptures.

JohnR7 · Apr 11, 2005

JGMEERT said:
JM: I nominate Hugh Ross as the Ph.D. physicist.

Hugh Ross is not a evolutionists. I do not know if I can take on Ross in his knowledge of the Bible and I have read it at least 7 times.

theFijian · Apr 11, 2005

JohnR7 said:
I do not know if I can take on Ross in his knowledge of the Bible and I have read it at least 7 times.

Reading is not the same as understanding, as you repeatedly demonstrate

Battie · Apr 11, 2005

raphael_aa said:
There it is again: that sanctified self righteousness that claims that it alone has the 'true' understanding of scriptures and that alternative views, no matter how carefully and prayerfully arrived at, MUST be wrong.

Isn't that pretty much Gnosticism, which the author of 1, 2, and 3 John spoke out against?

corvus_corax · Apr 11, 2005

JohnR7 said:
Whatever, you can have a hussy fit about it if you want.

I wasnt. I was pointing out your condescending and arrogant approach "Oh, did we step on some toes? " etc as unbecoming a christian character.
Read into it all you want though.

JohnR7 said:
you can use the scientific method to understand the Bible. So no one has a excuse, if anything a man of science is without excuse because they have the training to properly understand the scriptures.

Can you give me some examples of how the scriptures can be interpreted by using characterization, forming a hypothesis, creating predictions based on the hypothesis and then developing experiments (with controls and blinds) to prove or falsify the hypothesis and predictions?

MarkT · Apr 11, 2005

It's not an active fracture system. It's in the middle of a plate away from any boundaries.

In a typical "oceanic" environment, volcanoes are alined along the crest of a broad ridge that marks an active fracture system in the oceanic crust. Basaltic magmas, generated in the upper mantle beneath the ridge, rise along fractures through the basaltic layer. Because the granitic crustal layer is absent, the magmas are not appreciably modified or changed in composition and they erupt on the surface to form basaltic volcanoes. -- Excerpt from: Tilling, 1985, Volcanoes: USGS General Interest Publication

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/VolcanoTypes/island_oceanic_continental.html

MarkT · Apr 11, 2005

Convection cells in the mantle caused this. Upwelling material from two convection cells in opposite directions (like in a pot of boiling water) would cause the crust to split. This is what we see in the middle of the Atlantic.

But it's not as if the plates just started moving 220 Ma. Nothing had to cause this to "begin" because it was an ongoing process.

Island Arcs
Chains of islands are found throughout the oceans and especially in the western Pacific margins; the Aleutians, Kuriles, Japan, Ryukus, Philippines, Marianas, Indonesia, Solomons, New Hebrides, and the Tongas, are some examples.. These "Island arcs" are usually situated along deep sea trenches and are situated on the continental side of the trench.

These observations, along with many other studies of our planet, support the theory that underneath the Earth's crust (the lithosphere: a solid array of plates) is a malleable layer of heated rock known as the asthenosphere which is heated by radioactive decay of elements such as Uranium, Thorium, and Potassium. Because the radioactive source of heat is deep within the mantle, the fluid asthenosphere circulates as convection currents underneath the solid lithosphere. This heated layer is the source of lava we see in volcanos, the source of heat that drives hot springs and geysers, and the source of raw material which pushes up the mid-oceanic ridges and forms new ocean floor. Magma continuously wells upwards at the mid-oceanic ridges (arrows) producing currents of magma flowing in opposite directions and thus generating the forces that pull the sea floor apart at the mid-oceanic ridges. As the ocean floor is spread apart cracks appear in the middle of the ridges allowing molten magma to surface through the cracks to form the newest ocean floor. As the ocean floor moves away from the mid-oceanic ridge it will eventually come into contact with a continental plate and will be subducted underneath the continent. Finally, the lithosphere will be driven back into the asthenosphere where it returns to a heated state.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/tecmech.html

The picture shows magma welling up at the ridge and producing currents which then move in opposite directions.

So you have to have a fracture in the earths crust before you can get the speading effect.

So when the waters were released, the earth cracked, and then the magma came to the surface and then the continents began to drift apart.

MarkT · Apr 12, 2005

It's a question of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

To create a convection cell you have to have an escape. The reason magma wells up at the ridge is because that's where the volcano is.

The convection cells have always been a mystery to scientists. Now you can go back to your teachers and tell them I solved the mystery for them.

HRE · Apr 12, 2005

MarkT said:
In a typical "oceanic" environment, volcanoes are alined along the crest of a broad ridge that marks an active fracture system in the oceanic crust. Basaltic magmas, generated in the upper mantle beneath the ridge, rise along fractures through the basaltic layer. Because the granitic crustal layer is absent, the magmas are not appreciably modified or changed in composition and they erupt on the surface to form basaltic volcanoes. -- Excerpt from: Tilling, 1985, Volcanoes: USGS General Interest Publication

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/VolcanoTypes/island_oceanic_continental.html

That is the typical, yes, but it is not the absolute. Yellowstone Nat'l Park, Craters of the Moon Nat'l Park, and the Hawaiian Islands are caused by the same thing: hot spots. They are all leagues away from any plate edge.

notto · Apr 12, 2005

MarkT said:
Island Arcs
Chains of islands are found throughout the oceans and especially in the western Pacific margins; the Aleutians, Kuriles, Japan, Ryukus, Philippines, Marianas, Indonesia, Solomons, New Hebrides, and the Tongas, are some examples.. These "Island arcs" are usually situated along deep sea trenches and are situated on the continental side of the trench.

It's interesting how neither of your sources uses the Hawaiian Islands as an example. Why is that?

JGMEERT · Apr 12, 2005

MarkT said:
It's a question of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

JM: I suggest you review the concepts of passive and active rifting.

To create a convection cell you have to have an escape. The reason magma wells up at the ridge is because that's where the volcano is.

JM: Convection does not require 'an escape', it requires temperature differences sufficient to move the material along a gradient.

The convection cells have always been a mystery to scientists. Now you can go back to your teachers and tell them I solved the mystery for them.

JM: Name two scientists who think convection cells are mysterious.

Cheers

Joe Meert

Mechanical Bliss · Apr 12, 2005

MarkT said:
In a typical "oceanic" environment, volcanoes are alined along the crest of a broad ridge that marks an active fracture system in the oceanic crust. Basaltic magmas, generated in the upper mantle beneath the ridge, rise along fractures through the basaltic layer. Because the granitic crustal layer is absent, the magmas are not appreciably modified or changed in composition and they erupt on the surface to form basaltic volcanoes. -- Excerpt from: Tilling, 1985, Volcanoes: USGS General Interest Publication

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/VolcanoTypes/island_oceanic_continental.htmlhttp://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/VolcanoTypes/island_oceanic_continental.html

This is inconsistent with the way you previously used the phrase "active fracture system" and how you tried to apply that to the Pacific Plate. There is obviously going to be a fracture in the crust where the magma is upwelling.

But that does not mean that the Hawaiian Islands should actually be pointing eastward rather than westward. That makes no sense because the plate is moving WNW away from the hot spot.

Mechanical Bliss · Apr 12, 2005

MarkT said:
Island Arcs
Chains of islands are found throughout the oceans and especially in the western Pacific margins; the Aleutians, Kuriles, Japan, Ryukus, Philippines, Marianas, Indonesia, Solomons, New Hebrides, and the Tongas, are some examples.. These "Island arcs" are usually situated along deep sea trenches and are situated on the continental side of the trench.

I have no idea why you included this portion in your post because this is not relevant to the Hawaiian Islands.

As it says, these types of island arcs are produced at active plate boundaries where one plate subducts beneath another, causing volcanic activity. And this is of a different nature of the volcanism in Hawaii, also reflected by the composition of their output. You'll find andesite at the Aleutian Islands but not at Hawaii, where you'll find basalt.

Magma continuously wells upwards at the mid-oceanic ridges (arrows) producing currents of magma flowing in opposite directions and thus generating the forces that pull the sea floor apart at the mid-oceanic ridges. As the ocean floor is spread apart cracks appear in the middle of the ridges allowing molten magma to surface through the cracks to form the newest ocean floor.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/tecmech.html

The picture shows magma welling up at the ridge and producing currents which then move in opposite directions.

That's exactly what I was saying.

So you have to have a fracture in the earths crust before you can get the speading effect.

You didn't read the article very carefully. Read the part I selected above, especially the bolded sentence.

It says that it is the upwelling of magma is what causes extension in the oceanic crust, and it is that extension which causes the crust to fracture.

That was exactly what I was saying. Your article seems to agree with what I have said rather than support your claim.

So when the waters were released, the earth cracked, and then the magma came to the surface and then the continents began to drift apart.

Fanciful storytelling that ignores facts and presents no evidence that any water existed below the crust. You are just making it up as you go along.

But it seems like you are engaging in distractions with your recent presentation of links. You still haven't addressed the fact that the ages of the Hawaiian Islands acquired from plate tectonic rates are matched by K-Ar dates of the Islands. That refutes any notion that the plates have moved rapidly.

JohnR7 · Apr 12, 2005

theFijian said:
Reading is not the same as understanding, as you repeatedly demonstrate

Yes, and my point was that you can use the Scientific Method to understand the Bible. I have just seen to many people trained in Science throw it all out the window when they start to read their Bible. Let me give you an example so it is clear what I am talking about.

Genesis 1:1-3
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

At this point in time the earth was covered with water, there was no dry land. Of course the bottom of the ocean was a hard surface, but the whole earth was covered with water.

The point of observation here was the SURFACE of the earth. So if light was formed for the first time, then we are talking about light on the surface of the earth.

Anyone trained in Science would establish their referance point first, before they begin to come up with a hypothesis about what this passage is refering to.

When God said: "Let there be light: and there was light", He was talking about light on the surface of the earth. That does not mean there was no light elsewhere in the universe. There was no light on the surface of the earth until God said: "Let there be light".

Mechanical Bliss · Apr 12, 2005

MarkT said:
It's a question of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

No, it's not. Again, your own article answered that (and agreed with the explanation I gave you previously).

Magma continuously wells upwards at the mid-oceanic ridges (arrows) producing currents of magma flowing in opposite directions and thus generating the forces that pull the sea floor apart at the mid-oceanic ridges. As the ocean floor is spread apart cracks appear in the middle of the ridges allowing molten magma to surface through the cracks to form the newest ocean floor.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/tecmech.html

The upwelling comes first which creates the force necessary to fracture the crust.

To create a convection cell you have to have an escape.

Non sequitur. It does not follow that a convection requires an escape. What convection requires is a difference in temperature such that the hotter material is more boyant than the cooler material thereby creating a sort of current.

The reason magma wells up at the ridge is because that's where the volcano is.

That doesn't make any sense. These ridges aren't volcanoes. These ridges are fractures created by convection in the mantle extending the crust to the point that it pulls apart.

The convection cells have always been a mystery to scientists. Now you can go back to your teachers and tell them I solved the mystery for them.

I don't see why convection is a mystery to scientists, but regardless of that, you certainly don't seem to have solved anything.

JohnR7 · Apr 12, 2005

HRE said:
That is the typical, yes, but it is not the absolute. Yellowstone Nat'l Park, Craters of the Moon Nat'l Park, and the Hawaiian Islands are caused by the same thing: hot spots. They are all leagues away from any plate edge.

There are two things that cause the earth to "wrinkle" plate tectonics and volcanos. The rate has to be greater than the erosion rate that would level the earth and then everything would be underwater. Like everything else there is a delicate balance that has to be maintained at the optimum level to support life.

MarkT · Apr 12, 2005

Convection cannot take place without a source of heat. Heat within the Earth comes from two main sources: radioactive decay and residual heat. Radioactive decay, a spontaneous process that is the basis of "isotopic clocks" used to date rocks, involves the loss of particles from the nucleus of an isotope (the parent) to form an isotope of a new element (the daughter). The radioactive decay of naturally occurring chemical elements -- most notably uranium, thorium, and potassium -- releases energy in the form of heat, which slowly migrates toward the Earth's surface. Residual heat is gravitational energy left over from the formation of the Earth -- 4.6 billion years ago -- by the "falling together" and compression of cosmic debris. How and why the escape of interior heat becomes concentrated in certain regions to form convection cells remains a mystery.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/unanswered.html

Notice heat has to escape to form convection cells.

In the picture, (the boiling water), heat is escaping in the form of steam.

That's why I'm saying you have to have a fracture to let the heat escape to create the spreading effect.

Magma has to have a way out to the surface. The fracturing occurred at mid ocean. Heat escaped as the mid ocean ridges formed and the heat escape began the mantle convection currents.

Scientific proof of flood.

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