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Science

Received

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Davian made a pretty interesting paraphrase of Churchill by saying, "science is the worst way to investigate reality, but all the others have been tried."

I would say that science is the tightest, most reliable way of getting to the truth; however this technically can't be the case because science involves falsification, which means you can only get at varying degrees of certainty and never certainty that you have the truth. Yes, even with evolution, which it would be worth betting the life of yourself and your entire family is true.

Science being the most reliable way doesn't at all imply that it's the only way. I think you can structure the ways of ascertaining knowledge as a hierarchy that's a reverse pyramid, with the most fundamental ways of getting to truth being the least reliable and the more you move up the bigger the sections get but the less fundamental they are.

screen-shot-2012-12-07-at-1-20-04-pm.png


Starting with intuition at the bottom, which is the basis of everything else on top of it. Without intuition we couldn't even know other people exist, much less science, which works from the assumption that "other things" exist. Intuition is the basis of all the other sections that sit on top of it. However, it's also the least reliable, because people previously intuited that the world was flat, you know.

The next section (bigger but higher up on the reverse pyramid) is experience. Experience is intuitively validated; we trust our experience as valid not on the basis of any reasoning, but because we "know without reasoning," we intuit. However, unlike naked intuition, experience is dressed up in a plethora of sensory pathways that activates it.

The next section (fattest yet but also least fundamental) is reason, which we can specifically understand as the process of connecting premises to conclusions. Where does science fit into this? Because science -- let's not forget -- is first and foremost a philosophy (the most useful one in history), it can be seen as a tiny compartment in this pyramidal section of reason. Why here and not with experience, since experience is considered synonymous with empiricism, and science is a structured type of empiricism? Because science is a philosophy, and as such it's restricted by reason: it has philosophical presuppositions and its constituent parts can be articulated. Now, it's important that -- as much as we talk about God being difficult to talk about -- there's a more clandestine debate constantly going on about what science actually is. So science is far from free of philosophical problems, not unlike theism. The only difference is everyone loves science so much that they don't really question her like theism, which not all people like that much (and not always for bad reasons).

What does the pyramid ultimately mean? That we need all the sections when it comes to determining what is true, that each section has a varying degree of fundamental relation to ourselves, and that they each have varying degrees of reliability -- we can trust them in varying degrees.

So apropos the restatement of Churchill: science isn't the only way of investigating reality. It's the most useful, most reliable, but far from the only compartment, and far from being free of philosophical problems.
 

Davian

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Davian made a pretty interesting paraphrase of Churchill by saying, "science is the worst way to investigate reality, but all the others have been tried."

I would say that science is the tightest, most reliable way of getting to the truth; however this technically can't be the case because science involves falsification, which means you can only get at varying degrees of certainty and never certainty that you have the truth. Yes, even with evolution, which it would be worth betting the life of yourself and your entire family is true.

Science being the most reliable way doesn't at all imply that it's the only way. I think you can structure the ways of ascertaining knowledge as a hierarchy that's a reverse pyramid, with the most fundamental ways of getting to truth being the least reliable and the more you move up the bigger the sections get but the less fundamental they are.

screen-shot-2012-12-07-at-1-20-04-pm.png


Starting with intuition at the bottom, which is the basis of everything else on top of it. Without intuition we couldn't even know other people exist, much less science, which works from the assumption that "other things" exist. Intuition is the basis of all the other sections that sit on top of it. However, it's also the least reliable, because people previously intuited that the world was flat, you know.

The next section (bigger but higher up on the reverse pyramid) is experience. Experience is intuitively validated; we trust our experience as valid not on the basis of any reasoning, but because we "know without reasoning," we intuit. However, unlike naked intuition, experience is dressed up in a plethora of sensory pathways that activates it.

The next section (fattest yet but also least fundamental) is reason, which we can specifically understand as the process of connecting premises to conclusions. Where does science fit into this? Because science -- let's not forget -- is first and foremost a philosophy (the most useful one in history), it can be seen as a tiny compartment in this pyramidal section of reason. Why here and not with experience, since experience is considered synonymous with empiricism, and science is a structured type of empiricism? Because science is a philosophy, and as such it's restricted by reason: it has philosophical presuppositions and its constituent parts can be articulated. Now, it's important that -- as much as we talk about God being difficult to talk about -- there's a more clandestine debate constantly going on about what science actually is. So science is far from free of philosophical problems, not unlike theism. The only difference is everyone loves science so much that they don't really question her like theism, which not all people like that much (and not always for bad reasons).

What does the pyramid ultimately mean? That we need all the sections when it comes to determining what is true, that each section has a varying degree of fundamental relation to ourselves, and that they each have varying degrees of reliability -- we can trust them in varying degrees.

So apropos the restatement of Churchill: science isn't the only way of investigating reality. It's the most useful, most reliable, but far from the only compartment, and far from being free of philosophical problems.
These 'problems' with science - as in how gods are relegated to characters in books?
 
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Radagast

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I would say that science is the tightest, most reliable way of getting to the truth

Well, that's obviously false, unless you add the words "about the physical universe."

Clearly the most reliable way of "getting to the truth" about mathematics, for example, is mathematical proof.
 
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Received

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"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." —Winston Churchill

You should try that sometime. The hurrying off part, that is. ;)
 
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lesliedellow

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Science is a way of trying to answer questions about the physical universe. Either because it would be useful to have the answers for technological reasons, or out of mere curiosity. But it is not everything, and, in particular, it is not a god which can displace the God.
 
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Well, that's obviously false, unless you add the words "about the physical universe."

Clearly the most reliable way of "getting to the truth" about mathematics, for example, is mathematical proof.

Mathematical proof is found through reasoning. And I don't think it's false: even if science works only with the physical universe and we have another "universe" (spiritual? metaphysical?) to be worried about, science would still be the most reliable sphere for ascertaining truth of all the universes and means of ascertaining truth (e.g., reason, experience, etc.).
 
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Davian

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Science is a way of trying to answer questions about the physical universe. Either because it would be useful to have the answers for technological reasons, or out of mere curiosity. But it is not everything,
What is it not, in the context of exploring reality?
and, in particular, it is not a god
That would be silly.^_^
which can displace the God.
The unfalsifiable cannot be falsified.
 
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Radagast

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And I don't think it's false

Trust me, science is a completely useless way of deciding if, for example, every even integer greater than 4 can be expressed as the sum of two odd primes. It's not much help on moral issues either.

Science has a restricted domain (the physical universe) and even within its domain, it's less reliable than mathematics is in the mathematical domain. Indeed, that must be so, since science begins by assuming the truth of mathematics.

And, I must point out, I am a scientist.

science would still be the most reliable sphere for ascertaining truth of all the universes and means of ascertaining truth (e.g., reason, experience, etc.).

That's rather incoherent. If you mean "science is the most reliable means of ascertaining truth in general," I think that's obviously false, for the reasons outlined above.

... but I think this thread has probably passed its useful life.
 
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BL2KTN

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Received said:
I would say that science is the tightest, most reliable way of getting to the truth; however this technically can't be the case because science involves falsification, which means you can only get at varying degrees of certainty and never certainty that you have the truth.

Given that you are a fallible being, I'd love to hear how you could ever reach absolute certainty on anything and through any means. It seems to me that even if there was a perfect truth-giver, you could never be absolutely certain of it since you can't be absolutely certain of anything.

And since that's the case, science still reigns supreme as the best way to know learn about the world.
 
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BL2KTN

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Radagast said:
Trust me, science is a completely useless way of deciding if, for example, every even integer greater than 4 can be expressed as the sum of two odd primes. It's not much help on moral issues either.

Science depends on logic being consistent. Mathematics is a form of expressing logic. Your statement therefore is akin to claiming a book is a completely useless way of determining sounds since the alphabet does that instead. It's true but completely pointless.

Science has a restricted domain (the physical universe) and even within its domain, it's less reliable than mathematics is in the mathematical domain. Indeed, that must be so, since science begins by assuming the truth of mathematics.

What is there besides the physical universe and how do know it exists? What about the scientific method is unreliable?

And, I must point out, I am a scientist.

What is/are your degree(s) and the school(s) you received it/them from?

That's rather incoherent. If you mean "science is the most reliable means of ascertaining truth in general," I think that's obviously false, for the reasons outlined above.

... but I think this thread has probably passed its useful life.

On the second page?
 
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Radagast

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Science depends on logic being consistent. Mathematics is a form of expressing logic. Your statement therefore is akin to claiming a book is a completely useless way of determining sounds since the alphabet does that instead. It's true but completely pointless.

You misunderstand me. Science depends on logic and mathematics, so it cannot be more reliable than logic and mathematics. Since science makes additional assumptions, it must in fact be less reliable than those two.

Furthermore, the methods of science are not helpful in deciding if, for example, every even integer greater than 4 can be expressed as the sum of two odd primes. One uses mathematical methods for such questions, not scientific experiments.

What is there besides the physical universe

There is the domain of mathematics, for example, and the domain of morality. The statement "2^57,885,161 - 1 is prime" is true, but it's not a statement about the physical universe.

... but I think this thread has probably passed its useful life.

In fact, I'm now certain of it.
 
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Davian

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Mathematical proof is found through reasoning. And I don't think it's false: even if science works only with the physical universe and we have another "universe" (spiritual? metaphysical?) to be worried about, science would still be the most reliable sphere for ascertaining truth of all the universes and means of ascertaining truth (e.g., reason, experience, etc.).
Be careful here - I would avoid saying that science is a means of ascertaining truth, in a philosophical sense.
 
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Davian

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Trust me, science is a completely useless way of deciding if, for example, every even integer greater than 4 can be expressed as the sum of two odd primes. It's not much help on moral issues either.

Science has a restricted domain (the physical universe) and even within its domain, it's less reliable than mathematics is in the mathematical domain. Indeed, that must be so, since science begins by assuming the truth of mathematics.

And, I must point out, I am a scientist.



That's rather incoherent. If you mean "science is the most reliable means of ascertaining truth in general," I think that's obviously false, for the reasons outlined above.
...
What are these other, more reliable means of ascertaining 'truth'? or, better yet, exploring reality?
 
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BL2KTN

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Radagast said:
You misunderstand me. Science depends on logic and mathematics, so it cannot be more reliable than logic and mathematics. Since science makes additional assumptions, it must in fact be less reliable than those two.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Both the scientific method and mathematics rely on presupposed logical constants. Math is an expression of logic, and the scientific method is a logical means by which to determine probabilistic outcomes.

Furthermore, the methods of science are not helpful in deciding if, for example, every even integer greater than 4 can be expressed as the sum of two odd primes. One uses mathematical methods for such questions, not scientific experiments.

You said this essentially before and it was just as unimpressive then. We have different tools for different areas of inquiry. Why is this significant to you?

There is the domain of mathematics, for example, and the domain of morality. The statement "2^57,885,161 - 1 is prime" is true, for example, but it's not a statement about the physical universe.

There is the domain of mathematics? I thought mathematics was invented by humans inside the physical universe and exists as a concept within the physical universe? Is this not true? And the same goes for morality - humans invented it, right?

1 is prime is true in this universe. It doesn't have to be true in another universe. 1 only exists at all because we have singular physical items within this universe that 1 can describe.

In fact, I'm now certain of it.

Again, Mr. Scientist, what's your degree and where's it from?
 
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Radagast

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I thought mathematics was invented by humans inside the physical universe and exists as a concept within the physical universe?

"There is also one other world, though many find difficulty in accepting its actual existence: it is the Platonic world of mathematical forms. There, we find the natural numbers 0,1,2,3,..., and the algebra of complex numbers. We find Lagrange's theorem that every natural number is the sum of four squares...

The natural numbers were there before there were human beings, or indeed any other creature here on earth, and they will remain after all life has perished. It has always been true that each natural number is the sum of four squares, and it did not have to wait for Lagrange to conjure this fact into existence
." -- Roger Penrose
 
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