Science vs. Evolution

[variant]

Two reasons, firstly since documented solar eclipses only go back 4,000 years. The earliest record is from Zhong Kang of China (2084BC). Evolutionists believe man has been on earth hundreds of thousands or millions of years, why then has he only documentated solar eclipses from 4,000 years ago?

Because writeing was developed in 3500 bc?

The second reason is, as the video explains, according to evolutionists solar eclipses only began 30 millions or so years back, and we just so happen to be able to view them now. The stress was on the factor of coincidence since 30 million years is a small ratio to however billions of years old evolutionits believe the universe or earth is.

That argument dosen't follow it's premices.

We can see solar eclipses therefore God?

What other interesting things happened that we missed and therefore not God?

 

[variant]

I really do like the population argument considering that global populaton of humans is not based on it's current growth rate but rather the global carrying capacity which is modified by agricultural pratices.

As for saying that the population growth rate is constant, why on earth would anyone use that argument?

 

[Cassiterides]

Woops, sorry, bad phrasing on my part - my point is, I'm not denying that history needs people to write it down, I'm pointing out that just because we weren't writing down our history before 4000 BC or whenever, that doesn't mean we didn't exist prior to that point.

If we want to talk not about speculation and actual fact i.e meaning what we know for certain, then the following quote sums this up regarding history:

''...real history is available for only the past few thousand years. The beginning of [known] written records... dates from about 2200BC and 3500BC. To keep things in perspective, one should remember that no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.'' - Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris, 1985, p.131

Anyone saying history predates this period of documentated history can not know for definate, since they could not observe it. There is no time machine. So if we stick with just the facts, then what we know is that man is only a few thousand years old, supporting Young Earth Creationism.

The fact that there is evidence of prehistoric (clue's in the name) man goes against what creationism suggests is the case - so I would say on this one creationism comes out the weaker here.

Here's the problem, how does 'pre-history' exist? There is no sense behind this concept. The creationist argument would be cultures that appear 'primitive' were simply contemporary to those more sophisticated, and not that everyone evolved from a lower level.

And even then, there is nothing like the kind of evidence presented to show that it is a 17/70 km high tower, and even then, why should that threaten God when we've sent space probes out of the solar system and been to the moon?

Because it was the first time this sin was committed, the same for the flood. In Genesis it says God would never again send a flood. And this promise remains in tact, since we have not observed another world-covering deluge.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Why would God tell science to "take a hike," when (accroding to you) He invented it in the first place? I am always impressed on how small you think this god of yours really is. He is a bumbler that must contantly be fixing and tweaking his Perfect Creation. Even worse, his fixes rarely work very long.

Even worse -- God never tells science to "take a hike" when it would be convenient for Himself, but rather when it would be most convenient for the likes of AV to say He did.

They need a small god to fit into their pockets.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

If we want to talk not about speculation and actual fact i.e meaning what we know for certain, then the following quote sums this up regarding history:

''...real history is available for only the past few thousand years. The beginning of [known] written records... dates from about 2200BC and 3500BC. To keep things in perspective, one should remember that no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.'' - Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris, 1985, p.131

Yes writing was invented in Sumeria about 3,500 BC
Mesopotamia: The Invention of Writing

This is more than 1,000 years before the date that Answers in Genesis gives for the global flood (2304 BC)
The Date of Noah’s Flood

Somehow the Sumerians didn't notice the global flood and of course the Egyptians and the Chinese and all the other peoples living around the world missed it as well.

Maybe the Onion says it best
Sumerians Look On In Confusion As God Creates World | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

 

[Cabal]

If we want to talk not about speculation and actual fact i.e meaning what we know for certain, then the following quote sums this up regarding history:

''...real history is available for only the past few thousand years. The beginning of [known] written records... dates from about 2200BC and 3500BC. To keep things in perspective, one should remember that no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.'' - Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris, 1985, p.131

Anyone saying history predates this period of documentated history can not know for definate, since they could not observe it. There is no time machine. So if we stick with just the facts, then what we know is that man is only a few thousand years old, supporting Young Earth Creationism.

And we come back to this old chestnut. So presumably you don't accept forensic criminology either? It is the EXACT same thing - using what we can observe now in tandem with established processes to infer what happened.

Why is history (and again, I'm referring to "history" as the particular action of writing down history, not the mere act of existing) the only valid way of establishing with certainty whether someone existed or something happened?

If you never wrote down a single word in your life, nor was there a word ever written about you, then you passed away, would it be reasonable for someone to claim you didn't exist, purely because there was no written record of it?

Would it reasonable to continue do so even in the face of someone else having dug up your skeleton and having obtained your DNA from it, etc?

The other reason for history not being a perfect standard is obvious - people lie, or make up things to explain what they do not understand. Reality can not.

Here's the problem, how does 'pre-history' exist? There is no sense behind this concept.

This is no problem in the slightest, of course there is sense behind it - because history when properly defined involves written accounts. If the concept of writing did not exist, then it is quite possible for there to be a pre-historic period. The point is, existence does not necessarily mandate there be a written account of it for all of it.

The creationist argument would be cultures that appear 'primitive' were simply contemporary to those more sophisticated, and not that everyone evolved from a lower level.

How could they even be so confident about that? By the standards discussed so far, they shouldn't even be sure those cultures existed in the first place, they didn't make a historical record of themselves.

I mean, we'll ignore all those skeletons etc for the time being.

Because it was the first time this sin was committed, the same for the flood. In Genesis it says God would never again send a flood. And this promise remains in tact, since we have not observed another world-covering deluge.

Again, this is conflating the topic with an irrelevant event. God made no such promise regarding Babel.

 

[Cassiterides]

Yes writing was invented in Sumeria about 3,500 BC
Mesopotamia: The Invention of Writing

This is the extreme end of the dating of the appearence of writing. Most scholars put it around 3000BC.

This is more than 1,000 years before the date that Answers in Genesis gives for the global flood (2304 BC)
The Date of Noah’s Flood

There was cuniform script on tablets aboard the ark.

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship

The flood was 2348BC.

Somehow the Sumerians didn't notice the global flood and of course the Egyptians and the Chinese and all the other peoples living around the world missed it as well.

The ancient Sumerians, Egyptians and Chinese all have flood myths. This is something so well known they can even be found on wikipedia.

 

[Cabal]

The ancient Sumerians, Egyptians and Chinese all have flood myths. This is something so well known they can even be found on wikipedia.

And these distinctly regional ethnic groups knew it was a global flood and not a series of local floods - how, exactly? (Not to mention how do we know they're not just making something up to explain some moral story or whatever...)

 

[Hespera]

If we want to talk not about speculation and actual fact i.e meaning what we know for certain, then the following quote sums this up regarding history:

''...real history is available for only the past few thousand years. The beginning of [known] written records... dates from about 2200BC and 3500BC. To keep things in perspective, one should remember that no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.'' - Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris, 1985, p.131

Anyone saying history predates this period of documentated history can not know for definate, since they could not observe it. There is no time machine. So if we stick with just the facts, then what we know is that man is only a few thousand years old, supporting Young Earth Creationism.



Here's the problem, how does 'pre-history' exist? There is no sense behind this concept. The creationist argument would be cultures that appear 'primitive' were simply contemporary to those more sophisticated, and not that everyone evolved from a lower level.



Because it was the first time this sin was committed, the same for the flood. In Genesis it says God would never again send a flood. And this promise remains in tact, since we have not observed another world-covering deluge.

Never observed the "first" flood, either.

no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.


So... we find a flint spear point embedded in a mammoth bone.

But hey nobody was there to write it down, so we cant possibly know that a person speared a mammoth.

some of the bones are burned, and broken open, and there are artifacts lying about. But no way we can possibly know that people had a fire there.

Nobody was around to see "god" "create the world".

no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.

 

[Cassiterides]

And these distinctly regional ethnic groups knew it was a global flood and not a series of local floods - how, exactly? (Not to mention how do we know they're not just making something up to explain some moral story or whatever...)

Most the flood myths state the flood was global, and that only one family survived onboard an ark or boat. Read the following flood story (second link) preserved in Miautso folklore, even mentioned is ''Nuah'' (Noah).

The Descent from Japheth of the Miautso People of China
Genesis According to the Miao People

 

[Cabal]

Most the flood myths state the flood was global, and that only one family survived onboard an ark or boat. Read the following flood story (second link) preserved in Miautso folklore, even mentioned is ''Nuah'' (Noah).

The Descent from Japheth of the Miautso People of China
Genesis According to the Miao People

I'm sure the stories assert they were global, that doesn't mean they were. How could those involved have known?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

This is the extreme end of the dating of the appearence of writing. Most scholars put it around 3000BC.



There was cuniform script on tablets aboard the ark.

The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship

The flood was 2348BC.

So roughly at the start of the 6th Egyptian dynasty
Sixth dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and about 75 years before Sargon of Akkad conquored Sumer.
Sargon of Akkad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strange that they failed to notice this worldwide flood.

The ancient Sumerians, Egyptians and Chinese all have flood myths. This is something so well known they can even be found on wikipedia.

Many peoples have flood myths. They are highly variable
Flood Stories from Around the World
The Hebrews may well have borrowed theirs from other Middle Eastern cultures. The flooding of the Nile was extremely important to the ancient Egyptians. Most cultures grew up around water. The fact that the so many of the flood myths are very different from the Gilgamesh/Noachain myths indicates the did not all arise from the same small family sharing a boat with a load of animals in the Middle East 4,368 years ago.

A collection of widely disperate myths does not add up to a single reality.

 

[Cassiterides]

Never observed the "first" flood, either.

no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.


So... we find a flint spear point embedded in a mammoth bone.

But hey nobody was there to write it down, so we cant possibly know that a person speared a mammoth.

some of the bones are burned, and broken open, and there are artifacts lying about. But no way we can possibly know that people had a fire there.

Nobody was around to see "god" "create the world".

no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.

You miss the point. Those objects can only have speculative dates given to them, they are not the same as the historical record for example the Battle of Hastings which was documentated in 1066.

 

[Cabal]

You miss the point. Those objects can only have speculative dates given to them, they are not the same as the historical record for example the Battle of Hastings which was documentated in 1066.

Actually, that's another point I wanted to bring up - many ancient historical sources AREN'T contemporary with the events they claim to describe (including the Bible, in places) - so you can't even make the claim about them that they were eyewitness, for a significant number of them. So they don't even have that going for them!

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually, that's another point I wanted to bring up - many ancient historical sources AREN'T contemporary with the events they claim to describe (including the Bible) - so you can't even make the claim about them that they were eyewitness, for a significant number of them. So they don't even have that going for them!

Many of the prophecies where not understood by those writing them.

In fact, Peter says that even the angels overlooked the dispensation of the Church Age.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[Cassiterides]

So roughly at the start of the 6th Egyptian dynasty

No.

The date assigned to the first egyptian dynasty as estimated by several scholars, has lowered with the passing of time:

Champollian: 5867 B.C. / Lesueur: 5770 B.C. / Unger: 5613 B.C. / Mariette: 5004 B.C. / Brugsch: 4455 B.C. / Lauth: 4157 B.C. / Chabas: 4000 B.C. / Lapsius: 3890 B.C. / Bunsen: 3623 B.C. / Breasted: 3400 B.C. / George Steindorff : 3200 B.C. / Eduard Meyer: 3180 B.C. / Wilkinson: 2320 B.C. / Palmer: 2224 B.C.

Note the two last figures closely fit with the Biblical chronology.

Sargon of Akkad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strange that they failed to notice this worldwide flood.

Same as above, but i don't have the difference in scholar dating on this at the moment.

Many peoples have flood myths. They are highly variable
Flood Stories from Around the World
The Hebrews may well have borrowed theirs from other Middle Eastern cultures. The flooding of the Nile was extremely important to the ancient Egyptians. Most cultures grew up around water. The fact that the so many of the flood myths are very different from the Gilgamesh/Noachain myths indicates the did not all arise from the same small family sharing a boat with a load of animals in the Middle East 4,368 years ago.

A collection of widely disperate myths does not add up to a single reality.

There are global flood myths preserved in hundreds of world cultures. If this isn't enough evidence...you guy are in such a state of mind even if Young Earth Creation was proven by a time machine you would argue it is somehow wrong.The only reason i can see why you despise creationism so much is because you are atheist.

 

[AV1611VET]

If this isn't enough evidence...you guy are in such a state of mind even if Young Earth Creation was proven by a time machine you would argue it is somehow wrong.The only reason i can see why you despise creationism so much is because you are atheist.

Wanna have some fun with 'em, Cass?

Ask'em why, if the flood was just a local one, Noah and his family were aboard the Ark for a whole year.

That'll bring out their "Biblical expertise" for sure --

 

[Cabal]

Many of the prophecies where not understood by those writing them.

In fact, Peter says that even the angels overlooked the dispensation of the Church Age.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I didn't mean that remark as a dig at the Bible, it applies to many old historical sources (the one that initially sprung to my mind was Bede's history of Dark Age England). In terms of the definitions laid out so far, even some books of the Bible don't even meet the definition of history as being contemporary eyewitness accounts, just either alleged or second-hand.

 

[Cabal]

There are global flood myths preserved in hundreds of world cultures. If this isn't enough evidence...you guy are in such a state of mind even if Young Earth Creation was proven by a time machine you would argue it is somehow wrong.The only reason i can see why you despise creationism so much is because you are atheist.

What does the occurrence of a global flood have to do with young earth creation?

I'd hardly call the flood idea creationism - that's up there with calling abiogenesis evolution.

It's also not unreasonable to highlight the differences between these myths as a point against their description of the same event. I mean, you're hardly going to claim that every single historical culture's pantheon of gods referred to in their flood legends exist too, now are you?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

No.

The date assigned to the first egyptian dynasty as estimated by several scholars, has lowered with the passing of time:

Champollian: 5867 B.C. / Lesueur: 5770 B.C. / Unger: 5613 B.C. / Mariette: 5004 B.C. / Brugsch: 4455 B.C. / Lauth: 4157 B.C. / Chabas: 4000 B.C. / Lapsius: 3890 B.C. / Bunsen: 3623 B.C. / Breasted: 3400 B.C. / George Steindorff : 3200 B.C. / Eduard Meyer: 3180 B.C. / Wilkinson: 2320 B.C. / Palmer: 2224 B.C.

Note the two last figures closely fit with the Biblical chronology.

Palmer wrote in the 1830's and Wilkinson in the 1860's and both were attempting to reconcile Egyptian chronology with the Bible. The current consenses is that the protodynastic period
Protodynastic Period of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ended about 3050 B.C.

Centuries of conquest reduced Upper Egypt to three major states: Thinis, Naqada, and Nekhen. Being sandwiched by Thinis and Nekhen, Naqada was the first to fall. Thinis then conquered Lower Egypt. Nekhen's relationship with Thinis is uncertain but these two states may have merged peacefully with the Thinite royal family ruling all of Egypt. The Thinite kings are buried at Abydos in the Umm el-Qa'ab cemetery.

Of course the protodynastic period followed the Predynastic period
Predynastic Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are global flood myths preserved in hundreds of world cultures.

Right, here is one my favorite. from
Flood Stories from Around the World

Nisqually (Washington):The people became so numerous that they ate all the fish and game and started to eat each other. They were so wicked that Dokibatl, the Changer, flooded the earth. All living things were destroyed except one woman and one dog, which survived atop Tacobud (Mt. Ranier).

Noah was a dog.

If this isn't enough evidence...you guy are in such a state of mind even if Young Earth Creation was proven by a time machine you would argue it is somehow wrong.

And I would say that even if an advanced alien culture that had been recording life on earth for 100 million years showed up you would say they are wrong.
The young earth and global flood were falsified by primarily Christian Geologists about 150 years ago as you can read on this web page written by an evangelical Christian, Davis Young.
History of the Collapse of Flood Geology and a Young Earth

Most cultures around the world have legends of people who either volutarily or involuntarily get turned into animals, such as werewolves. I hope you stay off the moors when the moon is full.
Many cultures have myths of vampires and walking dead so keep your garlic supply handy.

The only reason i can see why you despise creationism so much is because you are atheist.

I am not an atheist and the reason I argue against YEC is that it is absolutely totally absurd. There are many people who agree with me who are not atheists. Have you been paying any attention here?
Creation Science
Affiliation of Christian Geologists Homepage
Glenn Morton's story