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Science vs. Evolution

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Nathan Poe

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<Youtube snipped.>

Argument by shotgun doesn't work too well.

There's a lot to go through there, and obviously you don't understand it enough yet to paraphrase. Why not pick one or two evidences, explain them in your own words, and we'll discuss them?

Then, we'll move on to the next one or two, etc...
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Somehow I knew this list of long refuted young earth "proofs" would be coming soon. Do you really think there is anything here we haven't seen before? Do you know what PRATT means? These are all Points Refuted A Thousand Times. The population group rate is a particularly silly one but the others are as bad.

How Good are those Young-Earth Arguments
Is There Evidence for a Young Earth?
Faint young sun paradox explained by Stanford – greenhouse effect not involved | Watts Up With That?


Here is an old earth creationist site with conclusive evidence for an old earth and rebuttals of a lot of YEC nonsense.
Creation Science

Geology and Creation Science

Here is something from Joe Meert who used to post here.

Paleosols

Here is the story of Glenn Morton a former YEC who used to post here.
Glenn Morton's story
 
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Cabal

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Ok, I'm not listening to any more of that after that ghastly population argument.

Judging by the titles of what slides I can see, I'm guessing Surtees' arguments largely go like:

Surtees: Hey, if you extrapolate this parameter back it shows the earth is young!
Scientists: Assuming, of course, that all these parameters have changed at a constant rate, which in many cases there's evidence suggestion a variation in the rate of change and..
Surtees: NO NO GODDIDIT, RATES ARE CONSTANT YOUNG EARTH
 
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AV1611VET

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Then why did God not punish LOT for fornicating with his own daughters? God punished his wife for looking at the destruction but let Lot scott free! Now that's what I call double standards!
Lot was raped -- and that's all I'm going to say on this matter.
 
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Cassiterides

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Cassiterides

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Ok, can someone tell me what in the WORLD the fact that we can observe solar eclipses has to do with evidencing a young earth?

Two reasons, firstly since documented solar eclipses only go back 4,000 years. The earliest record is from Zhong Kang of China (2084BC). Evolutionists believe man has been on earth hundreds of thousands or millions of years, why then has he only documentated solar eclipses from 4,000 years ago?

The second reason is, as the video explains, according to evolutionists solar eclipses only began 30 millions or so years back, and we just so happen to be able to view them now. The stress was on the factor of coincidence since 30 million years is a small ratio to however billions of years old evolutionits believe the universe or earth is.
 
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Cabal

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Two reasons, firstly since documented solar eclipses only go back 4,000 years. The earliest record is from Zhong Kang of China (2084BC). Evolutionists believe man has been on earth hundreds of thousands or millions of years, why then has he only documentated solar eclipses from 4,000 years ago?

Why has mankind only documented anything from that time, is the question. I like how he also completely avoids the obvious suggestion that perhaps the reason why ancient cultures asserted the earth was new because that's when they and history arose.....a bit like how the 7-day week was a cultural convention around that time also.

The second reason is, as the video explains, according to evolutionists solar eclipses only began 30 millions or so years back, and we just so happen to be able to view them now. The stress was on the factor of coincidence since 30 million years is a small ratio to however billions of years old evolutionits believe the universe or earth is.

Irrelevant. There's lots of things in nature we didn't exist to observe, either - means little.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Ok, I'm not listening to any more of that after that ghastly population argument.
Of course at a 2% growth rate there would have been 60 people to build the tower of Babel 100 years after the flood. That's not very many to build a tower 60 miles around and 70 miles tall.
The usual version of this goofball argument says you can get to the current population with a 0.45% growth rate. Of course that only gives you 12 people to build the tower of Babel. The other problem with this argument is Biblical. 1 Chronicles says there were 1,100,000 men of Israel to draw the sword so if you give them wives you have 2,200,000, which would be bare minimum for the population if you are a literalist. If you put a 0.45% growth rate on that number you get 416,006,997,645 descendants of the Israeli swordsmen and their families, not to mention all the other people in the world at the time. Yet YEC leaders make this argument and expect their followers to nod their heads and swallow it whole and keep the donations flowing in.
 
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Cassiterides

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Why has mankind only documented anything from that time, is the question. I like how he also completely avoids the obvious suggestion that perhaps the reason why ancient cultures asserted the earth was new because that's when they and history arose.....a bit like how the 7-day week was a cultural convention around that time also.

Yes precisely, civilization only appeared a few thousand years back. One of the videos covered this. Archeology therefore supports the idea of a recent history of man, that's why a lot of archeologists are Young Earth Creationists.

The question to evolutionists is, why did civilization only appear a few thousand years back when they believe man is hundreds of thousands or millions of years old?
 
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Cabal

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None have been refuted.

Surtees is a clueless crock, having watched half of that tripe posted - up there with Hovind. They need urgent schooling in what a false dichotomy is. The presentation is entitled evidence for a young earth, and half of it is showing (incorrectly) how evolution might be wrong, which is not the same thing at all (actually, not even evolution for half of that, he's talking about cosmology, but then again I wouldn't trust someone who referred to atmospheric helium as a "molecule" to get his terms right.....).

In fact, you pretty much agree with this since you have to resort to linking in all your responces to Talk.Origins, an atheist website that offer responces that are nothing but laughable.

Every Talk.Origin's responce has already been adressed here:

http://creationwiki.org/Index_to_Creationist_Claims

Many of those "responses" are pretty laughable.
 
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Cabal

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Yes precisely, civilization only appeared a few thousand years back. One of the videos covered this. Archeology therefore supports the idea of a recent history of man, that's why a lot of archeologists are Young Earth Creationists.

History (i.e. deliberate recording of events) and existence do not go hand-in-hand. We didn't evolve able to write or build - so why should we expect to see it immediately?

The question to evolutionists is, why did civilization only appear a few thousand years back when they believe man is hundreds of thousands or millions of years old?

Why should it? Cooperative behaviour on the scale of "civilisation" is not going to be the main aim of a population attempting to survive. Once that's stabilised, then more complex cooperative behaviour like building cities, etc. can occur. And if you think it's too soon or whatever, given how many of the Surtees' arguments are based on faulty notions of how the rates of phenomena behave over time....
 
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Cabal

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Of course at a 2% growth rate there would have been 60 people to build the tower of Babel 100 years after the flood. That's not very many to build a tower 60 miles around and 70 miles tall.

Right, there is that tiny problem of God hitting the reset button after a few years.....so much for constant population growth ^_^

The usual version of this goofball argument says you can get to the current population with a 0.45% growth rate. Of course that only gives you 12 people to build the tower of Babel. The other problem with this argument is Biblical. 1 Chronicles says there were 1,100,000 men of Israel to draw the sword so if you give them wives you have 2,200,000, which would be bare minimum for the population if you are a literalist. If you put a 0.45% growth rate on that number you get 416,006,997,645 descendants of the Israeli swordsmen and their families, not to mention all the other people in the world at the time. Yet YEC leaders make this argument and expect their followers to nod their heads and swallow it whole and keep the donations flowing in.

Hah, nice.
 
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AV1611VET

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Right, there is that tiny problem of God hitting the reset button after a few years.....
Oh, I think God can circumvent little things -- like gestation periods -- don't you?

Lu 3:8b That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Especially if it's His will?

He may have told science to take a hike?
 
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Cassiterides

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History (i.e. deliberate recording of events) and existence do not go hand-in-hand.

Sorry but this is wrong.:p

History: from O.Fr. historie, from L. historia "narrative, account, tale, story," from Gk. historia "a learning or knowing by inquiry, history, record, narrative," from historein "inquire," from histor "wise man, judge," from PIE *wid-tor-, from base *weid- "to know," lit. "to see". Related to Gk. idein "to see," and to eidenai "to know." In M.E., not differentiated from story; sense of "record of past events" probably first attested late 15c.

History is based on eyewitness testimony ''to see, to know'', the existance of ancient writings is based on what people observed then.

''...real history is available for only the past few thousand years. The beginning of [known] written records... dates from about 2200BC and 3500BC. To keep things in perspective, one should remember that no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.'' - Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris, 1985, p.131.

We didn't evolve able to write or build - so why should we expect to see it immediately?

Creationists believe man appeared from the beginning capable of writing and being able to build.

Archeology vs. Evolution

No Evolution Here
 
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Cabal

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Oh, I think God can circumvent little things -- like gestation periods -- don't you?

Lu 3:8b That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Especially if it's His will?

He may have told science to take a hike?

So the population rate wasn't constant then? Yeah, thanks, we already knew that.

Keep catching up to the rest of the class though - you're only a couple of hundred years behind.
 
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Split Rock

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He may have told science to take a hike?

Why would God tell science to "take a hike," when (accroding to you) He invented it in the first place? I am always impressed on how small you think this god of yours really is. He is a bumbler that must contantly be fixing and tweaking his Perfect Creation. Even worse, his fixes rarely work very long.
 
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Cabal

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Sorry but this is wrong.:p

History: from O.Fr. historie, from L. historia "narrative, account, tale, story," from Gk. historia "a learning or knowing by inquiry, history, record, narrative," from historein "inquire," from histor "wise man, judge," from PIE *wid-tor-, from base *weid- "to know," lit. "to see". Related to Gk. idein "to see," and to eidenai "to know." In M.E., not differentiated from story; sense of "record of past events" probably first attested late 15c.

History is based on eyewitness testimony ''to see, to know'', the existance of ancient writings is based on what people observed then.

''...real history is available for only the past few thousand years. The beginning of [known] written records... dates from about 2200BC and 3500BC. To keep things in perspective, one should remember that no one can possibly know what happened before there were people to observe and record what happened.'' - Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris, 1985, p.131.

Creationists believe man appeared from the beginning capable of writing and being able to build.

Woops, sorry, bad phrasing on my part - my point is, I'm not denying that history needs people to write it down, I'm pointing out that just because we weren't writing down our history before 4000 BC or whenever, that doesn't mean we didn't exist prior to that point.

And any objections to this are usually based on a strawman argument of what evolution is claiming - instantaneous appearance of a written historical tradition is simply not an expected observation of evolutionary theory. Surtees made some reference to big brains, but that's looking at it with a massive degree of hindsight. The big brains are what allowed up to develop tools etc, and eventually more abstract concepts like language and history after time had passed.

As to the timescale expected for this, I don't know enough to say, suffice it to say that if survival wasn't immediately dependent on having a written historical tradition then it won't have appeared immediately until our relationship to our environment had changed.

The fact that there is evidence of prehistoric (clue's in the name) man goes against what creationism suggests is the case - so I would say on this one creationism comes out the weaker here.

Archeology vs. Evolution

No Evolution Here

Ok, we're onto archaeology again, I think we should make the arguments involving history and archaeology a bit more distinct, although there is some overlap during times covered by the historical record.

I'm not sure what this article is expecting to prove regarding evolution, i.e. an origins concept, when the Tower of Babel has nothing to do with it. I forget the name of the logical fallacy the author is committing here, but even if they showed one bit of the Bible to be true, that wouldn't mean it's all true. And even then, there is nothing like the kind of evidence presented to show that it is a 17/70 km high tower, and even then, why should that threaten God when we've sent space probes out of the solar system and been to the moon?
 
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