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Science vs. Evolution

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sandwiches

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What evidence do you have my statements are false?

Actually, you are right. We can't say your statements are false, as you didn't present evidence to back them up to begin with. Since you made the claim about ancient myths, you should provide the evidence for it. Go for it.
 
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Cassiterides

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The Golden Age

According to all ancient traditions and beliefs, the cradle of the human race was in a portion of the world characterized by an altogether extraordinary exuberance of life. Of all lands the sun shone upon it was the fairest and best. Even down to the Deluge, and later, something of the divine goodness of that primeval home-land remained.

The same idea of a perfect primeval climate is found among all ancient peoples. Ovid represents the spring, in Saturn's reign, to have been perennial. The spring of our world-age is only an abbreviated reminder of that great original. So Lactantius has preserved a fragment of the old ethnic creed when he tells us that only upon the loss of Paradise, darkness and winter came over the earth.

With this supposed deterioration of soil and climate the deterioration of man kept pace. Hence ancient writers, with hardly an exception, represent the men of their own day as far inferior in stature, in strength, and in longevity to the first progenitors of the race. Hesiod, Aratus, Ovid, Vergil, and Claudian vary somewhat in their accounts of the Golden, Silver, and later ages of human history, but all agree in representing the men of their time as weak and puny and short-lived, compared with men of the early ages of the world.

Plato, speaking of the antediluvians, says, "For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well affectioned toward the gods who were their kinsmen; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, practicing gentleness and wisdom in the various chances of life and in their intercourse with one another. . . .but when this divine portion began to fade away in them, and became diluted too often, and with too much of the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they, being unable to bear their fortune, became unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see they began to appear base, and had lost the fairest of their precious gifts."

The ancient Indian conception of the world's decadence from period to period is given in the "Laws of Manu."

Of the four great ages of the life of the present universe, we are living in the last and worst. In the first yuga all men were holy; in the present all are utterly corrupt and vile. In the first they were tall and long-lived; in each succeeding age they have grown dwarfed and feeble.

Similar to the Indian was the Iranian belief as reflected in the Bundahish. Here the duration of the universe is represented as filling four world-periods of three thousand years each. During the first of the four all is pure and sinless, but at its close the Evil One declares war against Ahura Mazda, the holy God, which war is destined to fill the three last ages. During the first of the three, the Evil One is unsuccessful; during the second, good and evil are exactly balanced; while in the last, which is our own, evil obtains, and till the destined overthrow at the very end maintains supremacy.

The conception which we are noticing is as old as it is universal. Berosus, reporting the earliest traditions of Chaldæa, represents the first men as of extraordinary stature and strength, and as retaining in lessening degree these characteristics until some generations after the Flood.

The bearing of this unanimous verdict of ancient tradition upon the problem of the location of Eden is obvious. The traditions of the whole ethnic world, not less than the record in Genesis, require that the cradle of the race be placed in the one spot on earth where the biological conditions are the most favorable possible.

The Ancient Greek Golden Age

Plato wrote that the Golden Age furnished fruits in abundance and that agriculture was in plentiful (Statesman, 272b). The later ages in contrast declined in their happiness and by the time of the Iron Age which started prior the 8th century BC, all was non-perfect and miserable.

The ancient Greek poet Hesiod in his Work and Days wrote prior to his era (8th century BC which he named the Iron Age) there were three main ages which declined in their perfectness. Hesiod wrote that during the Golden Age of Kronos, mankind: “…first of all was of gold …in the time of Kronos…they lived like Gods, with carefree heart, remote from toil and misery.” - Work and Days, 109

This idea of the original age of man being peaceful, harmonious and superior is repeated in numerous other pieces of ancient Greek literature, as well as traditions across the globe. According to Plato, the original man was thought to be gold, but not literally. Plato in his dialogue Cratylus (397e) clarified that the original race of man Hesiod described was gold in the sense it was good, noble and long lasting (according to Hesiod men of the Golden age lived long lives, around 1000 years or more).

So according to the belief of the ancient Greeks, and later the Romans the Golden Age or Age of Kronos (the original superior age of harmony), the Silver Age (the age of Olympians after Kronos was dethroned), Bronze Age and Heroic Age all existed before the 8th century BC and the Heroic Age most likely over-lapped the Silver and Bronze Ages, eventually ending sometime before the 8th century BC - before the Iron Age. During the Silver Age, mankind started to get impetuous and lost their wisdom, they became inferior and according to Hesiod they lived shorter lives then they did during the Golden Age (around a hundred and twenty years). Mankind also got even inferior intellectually during this age, especially by violence and arrogance. The final Iron Age, which began prior to the 8th century BC, is the worst age, the age of vice, corruption and decay.

Hesiod even wrote how he didn’t want to live in the Iron Age, and that he had wished he had been born in an earlier age!

(a) Golden Age - Age of the Titans, men lived amongst the elder Gods uncorrupted in a superior state, they were ruled by the Titan Kronos. The Roman equivalent to Kronos was Saturn and they called the Golden Age the Saturnian Age.
(b) Silver Age - Age of Olympians, men during this age were inferior to that of the Golden Age, and lived shorter lives, only around 120 years in age.
(c) Bronze Age - During this age, man became even more corrupt via warfare.
(d) Iron Age – Age of Vice and misery, the current age.
(e) Heroic Age – Overlapping Age, the age of quests and heroes, not given a specific time boundary, but most likely overlapped from Silver to Bronze Age.

The Biblical Golden Age

The Biblical Book of Daniel (2: 31-40) references Hesiod’s age of man by describing a statue with the superior metals at the top and descending in order, and the decadence of mankind associated with these metals - “thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee”.

The fall of man in the Bible, is contained in the early Book of Genesis – and relates to the transition of Adam and Eve from a superior obedient state in the Garden of Eden to an inferior state of disobedience.

In short summary man in the earliest era, the Golden Age, were closest to their creator. Cicero, a pagan in his De Legibus (X.XI) wrote exactly this:

“The ancient times came very close to the Gods”.

Tradition vs Modernity

Is there any scientific or archeological evidence to support the Golden Age and the recent creation of the earth?

Such questions have two possible approaches.

(a) Traditional
(b) Modern

The ancients of course went by a traditional approach; their answers would have been based on mythology, legends, and historical writings.

In contrast the modern approach is rooted in no established records, only modern scientific theories i.e. Darwinism and Uniformitarianism. Both these modern theories, assert life emerged millions or even billions of years ago, and through a gradualist process evolved. But nowhere in any ancient or traditional writing do we see such a bizarre idea as this! Commenting on this, the radical traditionalist and esoteric writer Julius Evola (1898 – 1974) wrote the following, comparing Darwinism or the theory of evolution with the beliefs of traditional ancient man:

“Although modern man until recently has viewed and celebrated the meaning of the history known to him as epitomizing progress and evolution, the truth as professed by traditional man is quite the opposite.''

''In all ancient testimonies of traditional humanity it is possible to find, in various forms, the idea of a regression or fall; from originally higher states

Evola was correct, only considerably recently has man started to trade their traditional beliefs and values for Darwinism. The doctrine of the four ages (Golden, Silver, Bronze and Iron) is completely the opposite as Evola noted to the theory of evolution. Regarding what the traditional ancients based their evidence on, mostly myths, Evola wrote the following:

“To uphold with Tradition that in the beginning there were no animal like cavemen, but rather ‘more-than-human’ beings, and that in ancient prehistory there was no civilization but an ‘era of gods’, this too many people - who in one way of the other believe in the gospel of Darwinism – amounts to pure and simple ‘mythology’. Since I have not invented the mythology myself, however, critics still have to explain its existence, that is, the fact that according to the most ancient testimonies and writings there is no evidence to support ‘evolutionism’, what is found in them instead is the opposite, in other words, the recurrent idea of a better…superhuman (‘divine’) past

Again Evola was correct, Darwinists dispel mythology, ancient tales etc yet at the same time can’t explain why they were constructed.

De-evolution vs. Evolution

Man thus has become inferior as time progressed.

This theory is de-evolution, but it does not imply huge physical alterations but instead mental ones. Man has always looked like man, since the beginning of his creation by God, however during earlier ages, such as the Golden Age he was taller according to myths and also lived a greater age.

In all mythological accounts across the world, and from religious texts, primordial man is always described as having a superior lifespan and often as having been taller.

Darwin's theory of evolution is monumental error, man has not evolved!
 
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Cassiterides

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Man’s Devolution Across Cycles:
Radical Traditionalism on Anthropogenesis, Part 1
Michael Bell

Radical Traditionalism rejects the modernist assumption of progressive human evolution, regarding it as the exact opposite of how the universe functions. For Traditionalism, all things begin at their zenith and gradually degenerate, through a series of stages, into mere shadows of their former glory, a pattern no less true of human beings. The purpose of this essay is to explain how this rule has applied to mankind, who has not risen to mastery of the world from the lowly origins of some apelike ancestor, but rather has fallen from godhood into his current, all-too-human condition.

To do so, it will first be necessary to describe the Radical Traditionalist understanding of history. Like all tenets of Traditionalism, this conception of history is held to be a revealed truth passed down through a chain of initiation. What recommends the Traditionalist outlook to the non-initiate is its coherence and explanatory power. In the following essay, I show that Traditionalism explains archaeological and historical records and harmonizes with ancient myths as well. The modern empiricist will likely disregard such myths as the fancies of primitive imaginations, but that begs the question, for it is just another version of the progress thesis that Traditionalism rejects.

Cyclical History

Radical Traditionalism shares the same view of human history as our ancient forerunners from nearly every corner of the globe. As opposed to the linear model of history—whether ruled by an overriding purpose of by mere chance—the ancients accepted a cyclical model. This is evident in the texts of virtually every civilized race. The Hindus traced man’s descent across four ages or yugas, from the age of Truth (Satya Yuga) to the Dark Age (Kali Yuga), with the series comprising a single Great Age (Mahayuga). The Hellenic Hesiod, in his Works and Days, described the procession from a Golden Age to Silver, Bronze, and Iron Ages, which corresponds to the Persian rendition of the cycles. The Old Testament reveals that the Semitic peoples also shared this cyclical understanding. In a dream experienced by the Chaldean king Nebuchadnezzar, there stood a statue with a head made of gold, a chest and arms of silver, thighs of bronze, and legs and feet made of iron and clay, all of which eventually crumbled upon being struck by a stone.The list can go on, with discussions of peoples from the Aztecs to the Japanese, but the examples provided are sufficient to reveal the universality of this cyclical concept.

The ancients also agreed that with each successive age, man becomes more and more distant from a primordial state of perfection.

In the Golden Age, man lived in harmony with divine beings and according to absolute, transcendent principles that brought happiness, wholeness, and near immortality to individuals while it brought order and prosperity to collective life.
 
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Hespera

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I stopped right there, since I really can't believe you bothered to study every single ancient tradition and belief that ever existed.


this would have to take in eskimos and australian aboriginies and african tribes and and and.......

I really dont think you will find each of them says the we started getting seasons as a result of the earth getting knocked off its axis.

or that they all talk of a golden age.

but hey let those who will play dueling webstes.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Creationism is a real movement, Atheism is an embarrassing internet movement which has a lack of support.

Yes, Cassiterides, keep telling yourself that.

Funny, since you guys have failed to prove evolution for over 90 pages, and yet you call me a parrot.:doh:

That is not true. We could present a super-abundance of evidence to you, yielded from over 150 years of investigation, and you would still reject it, ignore it or otherwise misconstrue it in some elaborate way. The evidence is not the problem. There is plenty of it. You are.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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What do you mean by "a scientific theory cannot be proven"?
As Split said we can only prove things in mathematics. In science we try to falsify alternative hypothesis and provide support for and test theories. For example there have been many tests of General Relativity and so far it has passed all of them.

The best we can say with very well supported theories such as evolution is that they are established beyond reasonable doubt. Nothing in science can be established beyond unreasonable doubt.
 
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tanzanos

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The Ancient Greek Golden Age

Plato wrote that the Golden Age furnished fruits in abundance and that agriculture was in plentiful (Statesman, 272b). The later ages in contrast declined in their happiness and by the time of the Iron Age which started prior the 8th century BC, all was non-perfect and miserable.

The ancient Greek poet Hesiod in his Work and Days wrote prior to his era (8th century BC which he named the Iron Age) there were three main ages which declined in their perfectness. Hesiod wrote that during the Golden Age of Kronos, mankind: “…first of all was of gold …in the time of Kronos…they lived like Gods, with carefree heart, remote from toil and misery.” - Work and Days, 109

This idea of the original age of man being peaceful, harmonious and superior is repeated in numerous other pieces of ancient Greek literature, as well as traditions across the globe. According to Plato, the original man was thought to be gold, but not literally. Plato in his dialogue Cratylus (397e) clarified that the original race of man Hesiod described was gold in the sense it was good, noble and long lasting (according to Hesiod men of the Golden age lived long lives, around 1000 years or more).

So according to the belief of the ancient Greeks, and later the Romans the Golden Age or Age of Kronos (the original superior age of harmony), the Silver Age (the age of Olympians after Kronos was dethroned), Bronze Age and Heroic Age all existed before the 8th century BC and the Heroic Age most likely over-lapped the Silver and Bronze Ages, eventually ending sometime before the 8th century BC - before the Iron Age. During the Silver Age, mankind started to get impetuous and lost their wisdom, they became inferior and according to Hesiod they lived shorter lives then they did during the Golden Age (around a hundred and twenty years). Mankind also got even inferior intellectually during this age, especially by violence and arrogance. The final Iron Age, which began prior to the 8th century BC, is the worst age, the age of vice, corruption and decay.
First of all Plato does not represent all of ancient Greece's beliefs. Democritus believed that all life originated from a single life form that originated from mud and that all the animals and last of them the humans evolved from this creature. Hypocrates made it clear that diseases were not caused by evil spirits! Heraclitus stated that: "This cosmos was neither made by god(s) nor man", many of the Ionian philosophers commonly known as pre Socratic were atheists. Yet you seem to purposely leave them out?
Democritus stated that "Nothing exists but Atoms and the void" This is a profound statement and the atomic theory concurs! Democitus reasoned that movement is impossible without empty space and thus atoms must exist in empty space for movement to be possible. Parmenides reasoned that the only change Atoms undergo is in their relative and absolute position through movement in space.

Democritus held that the Earth was a sphere, and that originally the Cosmos (universe) was composed of nothing but atoms churning in chaos, which collided together to form larger units (all matter including the earth and all life forms too).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democritus#cite_note-Barnes87-1 He believed that there are many worlds some in the process of being created and some which are decaying; He surmised correctly that some had no sun nor moon, and some with several moons and even suns. He held that every world has a beginning and an end, and that a world could be destroyed by collision with another world.

Thus in Ancient Greece we have various creation ideas and myths that are mutually exclusive.

The Masai people of East Africa believe that Engai (God) created ONLY the Masai and all the other peoples just grew out of the Earth! Hardly an idyllic myth that you claim all peoples held.

Myths are myths and science is science. If you use myth as evidence then Vishnu is above your Abrahamic God and Polytheism is the correct religious dogma!
 
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AV1611VET

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Cassiterides

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First of all Plato does not represent all of ancient Greece's beliefs.

I quoted from Hesiod, the second earliest ancient Greek writer. The Golden Age theme occurs throughout ancient Greek historical and philosophical literature.

Democritus believed that all life originated from a single life form that originated from mud and that all the animals and last of them the humans evolved from this creature.

This is false. Good luck showing me a ancient quote or fragment from Democritus which states this.

Heraclitus stated that: "This cosmos was neither made by god(s) nor man"

Heraclitus' exact words:

''This ordered universe (cosmos), which is the same for all, was not created by any one of the gods or of mankind, but it was ever and is and shall be ever-living Fire, kindled in measure and quenched in measure''

Note how he still believed Gods existed, he was not an atheist.

many of the Ionian philosophers commonly known as pre Socratic were atheists.

None were.

Democritus stated that "Nothing exists but Atoms and the void" This is a profound statement and the atomic theory concurs!

That's true, but Democritus was still not an atheist.

Democritus held that the Earth was a sphere, and that originally the Cosmos (universe) was composed of nothing but atoms churning in...

Another lie.:p

Democritus was a flat earth believer, check Aristotle De Caelo, II. 13. 3.

Myths are myths and science is science. If you use myth as evidence then Vishnu is above your Abrahamic God and Polytheism is the correct religious dogma!

Myths are the earliest form of science.
 
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tanzanos

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Myths are the earliest form of science.
So if myths are the the earliest form of science and you believe them then you have just dismissed your God for:

According to Greek Mythology: In the beginning only Chaos and Night existed. Chaos copulated with Night and the first deity was born. This God was named EROS. Eros was not what people think as Cupid. Eros was the god of LOVE of ALL KNOWLEDGE! So Your omnipotent God was not the first and certainly not the only God.

Now you have only 2 choices: Either accept mythology as evidence and proof thus dismissing your monotheistic beliefs or: dismiss mythology altogether and thus dismiss the Bible.

Your call!

Δώσ' μοι παν στω και ταν γαν κινάσω.
 
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uberd00b

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Look at all the atheists in this thread, all are here for parody. Look at Tanzanos, Sithdoughnut avatars and signitures. Nothing about them is serious, they just use this forum for parody attempts. I've said this before, Atheism is an internet trend and phenomenom (for parody and internet trolling purpose), in real life it hardly exists.
AS someone with the union flag on your profile I find it hard to believe you have never encountered atheism in real life. The UK is stocked to the brim with atheists. Surely you're trolling.
 
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Hespera

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Actually they're the earliest form of storytelling.


In its earliest form science would consist of people making observations about their environment and acting on the basis of those observations.

Seeing how their actions did or did not get the results they wanted.

Trying different things to see what will work.

Trying to draw general conclusions from their observations and tests.

Science still works that way.

Religion is what, a sort of parasite, or mind virus. It short circuits the thought process.

It has been tremendously useful to the priest class who have successfully exploited religion for their personal aggrandizement.

The harm to human society of course is incalculable. Who could guess what might have been accomplished without religion stifling people's creativity.

The just completely weird illogical senseless things that people say in defense of religion are evidence enough of what magical thinking does to a person, once its been internalized.
 
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tanzanos

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AS someone with the union flag on your profile I find it hard to believe you have never encountered atheism in real life. The UK is stocked to the brim with atheists. Surely you're trolling.
There is even one buried in Westminster abbey: A great man if ever there was one; Charles Darwin! May his soul rest in peace!
 
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Archaeopteryx

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