• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Science falsely so called?

Status
Not open for further replies.

lewiscalledhimmaster

georgemacdonald.info
Nov 8, 2012
2,499
56
68
Scotland
Visit site
✟67,923.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
1074180.png


'....Ironically, ... Therefore, whenever the conclusions of the historical sciences conflict with the words of God, the only eyewitness of the creation events, we must reject the former in favor of the latter. Even the “big bang” theory, which many conservative Christian writers have seen as highly consistent with a belief in creation ex nihilo, is rejected by creationists as yet one more example of science falsely so called.
'* ;)

---
* Science So Falsely Called : Fundamentalism and Science by Edward B. Davis (as it first appeared in The Blackwell Companion of Science and Christianity)
 

lewiscalledhimmaster

georgemacdonald.info
Nov 8, 2012
2,499
56
68
Scotland
Visit site
✟67,923.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
My guess is: either it's too hot and reading such a sassy article is just not doable, or it's too cold and you've got the blanket pulled up over your head. Either way, there is no rush, as it requires a careful read. Enjoy.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
'....Ironically, ... Therefore, whenever the conclusions of the historical sciences conflict with the words of God, the only eyewitness of the creation events, we must reject the former in favor of the latter. Even the “big bang” theory, which many conservative Christian writers have seen as highly consistent with a belief in creation ex nihilo, is rejected by creationists as yet one more example of science falsely so called.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]'* ;)

---
* Science So Falsely Called : Fundamentalism and Science by Edward B. Davis (as it first appeared in The Blackwell Companion of Science and Christianity)

First thing they need to do is confirm that the Bible was written by eyewitnesses of the creation events. It seems to be that the best way to do that is to look at the evidence and see if it matches the claims made in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟262,441.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
First thing they need to do is confirm that the Bible was written by eyewitnesses of the creation events. It seems to be that the best way to do that is to look at the evidence and see if it matches the claims made in the Bible.

Well, an objective analysis of the bible never goes over all to well with some. These are usually the same folks who will ignore and deny boatloads of objective evidence on one hand, and accept a 2000 year old book written by mostly anonymous authors as the best evidence.
 
Upvote 0

lewiscalledhimmaster

georgemacdonald.info
Nov 8, 2012
2,499
56
68
Scotland
Visit site
✟67,923.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
First thing they need to do is confirm that the Bible was written by eyewitnesses of the creation events. It seems to be that the best way to do that is to look at the evidence and see if it matches the claims made in the Bible.

Well, an objective analysis of the bible never goes over all to well with some. These are usually the same folks who will ignore and deny boatloads of objective evidence on one hand, and accept a 2000 year old book written by mostly anonymous authors as the best evidence.

Just so we don't head off in the wrong direction, with too much gusto -- please note the context of the sentence:

'....Therefore, whenever the conclusions of the historical sciences conflict with the words of God, the only eyewitness of the creation events, we must reject the former in favor of the latter. ....'

Either the syntax is robbing the meaning, or I'm reading my conclusion about how the argument sometimes goes. i.e. '....GOD is the only eye-witness of the creation events, ....'

Secondly, the Bible is not a 2000 year old book. It actually consists of numerous books, and if we are referring to the book of Genesis -- then we're looking at extant manuscripts that go back quite a bit more than that. If we're considering Job, it's sometimes said to been the oldest book (poem) -- anyhow, I just wanted to make sure that the context here isn't about the writers being eye-witnesses but instead something like God said to Job. (i.e. Where were you when I laid the foundations etc. etc.)

Just so we don't lose the context of a very recent essay. Well? :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Either the syntax is robbing the meaning, or I'm reading my conclusion about how the argument sometimes goes. i.e. '....GOD is the only eye-witness of the creation events, ....'

People still need to support the claim that God wrote anything. If God wrote it, they also need to show that what God wrote is actually true. Being omnipotent, I am sure that God is as capable of writing fiction as any puny human.

Secondly, the Bible is not a 2000 year old book. It actually consists of numerous books, and if we are referring to the book of Genesis -- then we're looking at extant manuscripts that go back quite a bit more than that. If we're considering Job, it's sometimes said to been the oldest book (poem) -- anyhow, I just wanted to make sure that the context here isn't about the writers being eye-witnesses but instead something like God said to Job. (i.e. Where were you when I laid the foundations etc. etc.)

Just so we don't lose the context of a very recent essay. Well? :thumbsup:

They were all written by humans from oral traditions that changed through time. They are no different than any other creation myth in different religions.
 
Upvote 0

lewiscalledhimmaster

georgemacdonald.info
Nov 8, 2012
2,499
56
68
Scotland
Visit site
✟67,923.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
People still need to support the claim that God wrote anything.

I don't, as I have a very different view of this. I'd say start with MAN WROTE -- it's a case of reading it prayerfully if you hope to arrive at anything more than that. (I'm referring to the NT)

They were all written by humans from oral traditions that changed through time. They are no different than any other creation myth in different religions.

I'm not much of a big defender of the OT, so I'll leave this for someone else to comment.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
[.. Therefore, whenever the conclusions of the historical sciences conflict with the words of God, the only eyewitness of the creation events, we must reject the former in favor of the latter.

Perhaps if there was such a thing. :p

Because Science cannot re-test past events.
The scientific method can predict the outcome
of future events by documenting current events
and this allows hostile researchers to re-create
the conditions of the original documented
observations and confirm that the original
observations were legitimate.

There is no such thing as "Historical Science".
If ther were, then you would have a point to consider.

What you are referring to is not "Science".
It is Historical Science Fiction. :cool:


But let's not talk about theories of what happened in
the beginning of time. Let us talk about yesterday afternoon
to see how well science fictions hold up. :clap:



1. "The scientific method, a time-honored approach for discovering and testing
scientific truth, does not and cannot work for the forensic sciences in its
standard form because it does not work for past events. Past events cannot
be observed, cannot be predicted or deduced from physical evidence, and
cannot be tested experimentally.
"

2. Forensic Tools: What’s Reliable and What’s Not-So-Scientific

3. CSI Myths: The Shaky Science Behind Forensics


Here is a similar argument oddly silent by people who stand to loose
legitimacy in their given occupation:

"Higher Criticism may be called a science, though its processes and results do not admit of nicety of control and demonstration,
as its principles are of the moral-psychological order. Hence its conclusions, even in the most favorable circumstances,
attain to no greater force than what arises from a convergence of probabilities, begetting a moral conviction."

Interesting that the "Historical Sciences" (no such thing) do not confess the lack of "nicety of control and demonstration."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
There is no such thing as "Historical Science".
If ther were, then you would have a point to consider.
Correct. All science is the same. Only creationists talk about "historical science" and "operational science."

What you are referring to is not "Science".
It is Historical Science Fiction. :cool:
I didn't see where he did this. Can you give us an example?

Is "Historical Science Fiction" science which conflicts with your religious dogma?
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We can use evidence in the present to test hypotheses of what happened in the past, all in accordance with the scientific method.

That's HALF of the process.
Testing the hypotheses in your head is swell.
You are forgoing the ""nicety of control and demonstration." :doh:
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Correct. All science is the same. Only creationists talk about "historical science" and "operational science."


I didn't see where he did this. Can you give us an example?

Is "Historical Science Fiction" science which conflicts with your religious dogma?



Nope. All science is not tha same. Check the links.
The entire concepts rests on repeatable observations.


Any scrapping of the testing of a theory sucks royal.
The "nicety of control and demonstration." is cool. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
That's HALF of the process.
Testing the hypotheses in your head is swell.
You are forgoing the ""nicety of control and demonstration." :doh:

He didn't say anything about testing an hypothesis in his head. He is referring to testing using evidence in the present... like rock layers and genetic material.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
That's HALF of the process.
Testing the hypotheses in your head is swell.

The fossils aren't in my head.

You are forgoing the ""nicety of control and demonstration." :doh:

Controls are used when testing hypotheses of what happened in the past.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is this your new motto?

I like this one:

The Shaky Science Behind Forensics
Forensic science was not developed by scientists.






1. "The scientific method, a time-honored approach for discovering and testing
scientific truth, does not and cannot work for the forensic sciences in its
standard form because it does not work for past events. Past events cannot
be observed, cannot be predicted or deduced from physical evidence, and
cannot be tested experimentally.
"

2. Forensic Tools: What’s Reliable and What’s Not-So-Scientific

3. CSI Myths: The Shaky Science Behind Forensics
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
I like this one:

The Shaky Science Behind Forensics
Forensic science was not developed by scientists.

I like this one:

"Independent information about the relationship between sequences or groups can be used to help reduce the tree search space and root unrooted trees. Standard usage of distance-matrix methods involves the inclusion of at least one outgroup sequence known to be only distantly related to the sequences of interest in the query set.[3] This usage can be seen as a type of experimental control."
Computational phylogenetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you should find some real scientific websites.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Perhaps you should find some real scientific websites.

I will dig deeper at your urging.
Thanks, you asked for it.

PSEUDO-SCIENCE
Pseudoscience aimes to prove an idea.

Starts with a conclusion and gives easy answers to complex problems.
Often driven by social, political or commercial goals.

A field has not evolved a lot since the beginning. If any research is done, it is done to justify the claims, rather that expand them.

An attempt to disprove the beliefs is considered hostile and unacceptable.

Results or observations that are not consistent with current beliefs are ignored.

Beliefs of the field can not usually be tested empirically so will likely not ever be proven wrong;
Thus,]Pseudo-scientists believe that they are right just because no one can prove them wrong.

Pseudo-Scientists are often not in touch with main-stream science and are often driven by the
egos of the "scientists". Furthermore, famous names and testimonials are often used for support
rather than scientific evidence.

Pseudoscience often uses very vague, yet seemingly technical terms.

Like "historical Science." or "Computational phylogenetics"
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
I will dig deeper at your urging.
Thanks, you asked for it.

Pseudoscience aimes to prove an idea.

Starts with a conculsion and gives easy answers to complex problems.
Often driven by social, political or commercial goals. [bless and do not curse]

A field has not evolved a lot since the beginning.[bless and do not curse] If any research is done, it is done to justify the claims, rather that expand them.

An attempt to disprove the beliefs is considered hostile and unacceptable.

Results or observations that are not consistent with current beliefs are ignored.

Beliefs of the field can not usually be tested empirically so will likely not ever be proven wrong; Thus, [bless and do not curse]Pseudo-scientists believe that they are right just because no one can prove them wrong.[bless and do not curse]

Pseudo-Scientists are often not in touch with main-stream science and are often driven by the egos of the "scientists". [bless and do not curse]Furthermore, famous names and testimonials are often used for support rather than scientific evidence.[bless and do not curse]

Pseudoscience often uses very vague, yet seemingly technical terms.

Like "historical Science."

I see lots of accusations, but zero evidence to back them up.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.