Science and Perfection

[Patty]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
Patty I still need a little better idea of what your problem with how science works is... I have reread the thread a few times now and still I cannot seem to find a big problem...

And what is the matter with order forming from chaos, even a literal reading of genesis states that order from chaos is what happened in the formtaion of the earth.

Gen 1
The Creation
(1) 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[1] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Without form... sounds prety chaotic to me...

hen God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

Now here God neatly divides and orders things...

Order from Chaos is what Creation is founded upon, if you have such a big problem with the idea of order from chaos you might want to have a talk with the big G...

Lewis,

If I could go SLOWLY, step by step with you through Genesis 1:1,2, I would be thrilled.  However, I lament that on these forums, it has been nigh on impossible to discuss something that way.  I mean, real slow, carefully, step by careful step.

Genesis 1:1,2 has a tremendous amount of information in it.  It is not to be taken lightly.  I understand each and every word of it, and can write a dissertation on it.  But, alas, I dread that if I were to present my treatise on this board, it would not be heard.

However, I will say this:  Genesis 1:1,2 states: God created the heavens and the earth. 

And, I assure you, anything that God does is not chaotic.  That's a point men miss, time after time.  God is logical, precise, perfect in everything that he does.  The heavens and the earth did not begin in chaos. 

The darkness and void refer to something other than chaos of creation. Order from chaos is absurd for a man who believes in God to even consider, if the man believes, truly believes that God created the heavens and the earth, and that God is perfect.


Patty

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Patty, I don't have to think that God's creation was perfect, He already said that it wasn't. Show me where God called creation perfect in the creation story. All I can find is good and very good, this is a far cry from calling it perfect. If it was perfect there could have been no fall, and without atleast a chance of chaos there can be no free will, yet here we are with both...

Maybe it isn't the scientists that have it wrong, maybe it is you.

 

[Lacmeh]

Perhaps God is logical, but the logic of God is really convoluted, see Quantum Mechanics
For discussion´s sake, let´s assume, that God indeed did create the universe. The interesting question is, what was before God created the universe? We can clearly see, that the universe follows some kind of order, even when we have a hard time to understand the underlying order (see again Quantum Mechanics). Since we like to think in opposites, we assume, that there was chaos instead of order. Meaning there weren´t any rules around, how things behaved. I don´t see anything bad in this view of the world. We passed this state long ago and I don´t think we will reach this state of being in the future again.
Of course, nothing, that a higher being does, is chaotic. It does all things for reasons. Before things are done, however, there are no rules, therefore chaos.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
Patty, I don't have to think that God's creation was perfect, He already said that it wasn't. Show me where God called creation perfect in the creation story. All I can find is good and very good, this is a far cry from calling it perfect. If it was perfect there could have been no fall, and without atleast a chance of chaos there can be no free will, yet here we are with both...

Maybe it isn't the scientists that have it wrong, maybe it is you.

 

Like I said, Lewis.  It's nigh on impossible to post on these boards, as you've just demonstrated.

Patty

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by Patty


 

Like I said, Lewis.  It's nigh on impossible to post on these boards, as you've just demonstrated.

Patty

And so your great truth that if people just understood would make everything better will go unexplained because we are too stupid to get it ane/or you just don't feel the urge to lead us through your line of thinking?

If you thought this was so why did you even bother posting in the first place?

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
Look at your periodic table of the elements (everyone has one, right?). What fraction of them are metals? Does that provide at least a clue to the answer to your question?

Yes, we know that all elements are classified as metals and nonmetals. But i think Patty is talking about why there are seams of metal underground, like iron and gold. Why it isn't spread lying on the ground "ripe for the picking."

Patty, i don't know why that is. I'm thinking maybe it has something to do with the flood (like the way coal formed). What do you think?

God bless you.

Alex

 

[Lacmeh]

No, the distribution of metals has nothing to do with the flood.
It is basic chemistry, that no metal in elementary form is soluble in water to significant degrees. Therefore, gold, silver platin and other metals can´t get moved around by water.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by alexgb00

Yes, we know that all elements are classified as metals and nonmetals. But i think Patty is talking about why there are seams of metal underground, like iron and gold. Why it isn't spread lying on the ground "ripe for the picking."

Patty, i don't know why that is. I'm thinking maybe it has something to do with the flood (like the way coal formed). What do you think?

Sometimes I just don't know what to say any more.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Yes, we know that all elements are classified as metals and nonmetals. But i think Patty is talking about why there are seams of metal underground, like iron and gold. Why it isn't spread lying on the ground "ripe for the picking."

Patty, i don't know why that is. I'm thinking maybe it has something to do with the flood (like the way coal formed). What do you think?

God bless you.

Alex

Hey Alex,

God bless you!!!

You are on the right track, man!!

I mean it.  You are beautiful, Alex.  You are truly listening.  Yes, I am talking about that there are seams of metal underground and that metal isn't spread on the ground "ripe for the picking".

Yay, Alex!! I can continue on a bit further, now that you've said this.  But, pal, if you keep on with that thought, you might just bump into something fabulous on your own, like I did. 

It's so obvious, and just about everyone misses it.  Like seeing that picture of the cow.  At first, you can't see that the picture is of a cow, then when it's pointed out to you, you can never, ever miss it again.  If you're not familiar with the cow picture, I'll post it.

Thank you, very much!!

Patty

 

[Caffeine Socialism]

Well, one thing that I can infer from all of this is that metal wasn't meant for man. If everything in the universe was created as a toy from God's pet (humanity), then why should we have to go to great lengths and risk grave injury (at steel mills, or the like) to use it?

However, I could also infer that nothing is deliberately made for mankind.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by Patty


Hey Alex,

God bless you!!!

You are on the right track, man!!

I mean it.  You are beautiful, Alex.  You are truly listening.  Yes, I am talking about that there are seams of metal underground and that metal isn't spread on the ground "ripe for the picking".

Yay, Alex!! I can continue on a bit further, now that you've said this.  But, pal, if you keep on with that thought, you might just bump into something fabulous on your own, like I did. 

It's so obvious, and just about everyone misses it.  Like seeing that picture of the cow.  At first, you can't see that the picture is of a cow, then when it's pointed out to you, you can never, ever miss it again.  If you're not familiar with the cow picture, I'll post it.

Thank you, very much!!

Patty

I see my problem here Patty, I though yopu were talking about the Earth we are currently living on, not some other mythical Earth.

Since when did science ever say that if the earth was naturaly formed that metal would or even should be on the surface? Have you ever even studied basic geology before declairing it false and evil?

The earths surface is mostly silicates and other lite elements, just as one would expect if it was once a molten ball. The majority of the metals sank while the lighter elements rose toward the surface.

Honestly, if it was sooooo easy to see Gods work do you think that Christianity would still be a such minor religion on this planet?

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth


I see my problem here Patty, I though yopu were talking about the Earth we are currently living on, not some other mythical Earth.

Since when did science ever say that if the earth was naturaly formed that metal would or even should be on the surface? Have you ever even studied basic geology before declairing it false and evil?

Hey Lewis,

I hope you can clearly demonstrate where I said that basic geology is false and evil, or you stand labelled a slanderer.

Your remarks were crude and uncalled for.  I challenge you to show clear basis for your malignant remarks. 


Patty

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by Patty


Hey Lewis,

I hope you can clearly demonstrate where I said that basic geology is false and evil, or you stand labelled a slanderer.

Your remarks were crude and uncalled for.  I challenge you to show clear basis for your malignant remarks. 


Patty

Then, once acknowledging its aspects of perfection, they would be wise to carefully and considerately make an effort to understand what they were looking at before jumping to conclusions about what they could do with the object.

Here you basicaly say scientists are too stupid to understand perfection when they see it and not only that but they also are only looking for ways to greedly use anything that they study.

That's what I'm saying. If only they would look at the object of their research and marvel at its perfection, it would make a difference. But, they simply made an effort to look at the base elements of the universe, without marvelling at how well it's put together. It wasn't 'dumped together'. It IS perfection, and this perfection can be seen if they'd only look.

Again they are too stupid to understand what they see, even though they have spent years learning about it you yourself are still far more understanding of things than they are.

Am I complaining? Not about how much scientists know, but how they approach their research.

Again they are too stupid to see that your approach is the correct one and that they have been on the wrong track all these years.

However, that's exactly what I'm saying. Scientists research as though, instead of admiring the beauty of a puppy, they search scrupulously for fleas, whether the fleas exist or not. In other words, they see a puppy, then form the premise that where there is canine, there exist fleas. So, they tear through that baby's hide, scouring him until they either find evidence that they were right, or they say they must've overlooked something.

Better to enjoy the puppy and leave his hide alone, then let the fleas show their presence to you!! Enjoy the puppy's company, don't rake him over without learning about his beautiful demeanor and personality.

And now they are abusing puppies, how much more evil can one get than to abuse those cute little puppies.

If I could go SLOWLY, step by step with you through Genesis 1:1,2, I would be thrilled. However, I lament that on these forums, it has been nigh on impossible to discuss something that way. I mean, real slow, carefully, step by careful step.

Genesis 1:1,2 has a tremendous amount of information in it. It is not to be taken lightly. I understand each and every word of it, and can write a dissertation on it. But, alas, I dread that if I were to present my treatise on this board, it would not be heard.

And here I am to stupid to ever understand anything about the Bible. Heck I just cant see all the information there.

It's so obvious, and just about everyone misses it. Like seeing that picture of the cow.

It's so obvious that you can point out that 2000 years worth of scientists have failed to see, and many of them were Christians to, but definitly not as smart or as faithful as you.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by Caffeine Socialism
Well, one thing that I can infer from all of this is that metal wasn't meant for man. If everything in the universe was created as a toy from God's pet (humanity), then why should we have to go to great lengths and risk grave injury (at steel mills, or the like) to use it?

However, I could also infer that nothing is deliberately made for mankind.

Hey CS,

Thank you, thank you, thank you - for your terrific post.

That's an idea that is worthy of serious note.  You, as well as Alex, are addressing things that, when you put them together with a few other observations, add up to something amazing and marvelous.  I don't have to disclose yet.  You two guys are doing a terrific job!!!

Keep up the good work, CS!!

Patty

 

[Caffeine Socialism]

[ Removed by Admin ] 

My above post was sarcasm. See that funny, clear liquid dripping off the last word? That's sarcasm juice. You seem to think that I'm on your side (I'm just presuming that). From what I have read of yours, I am patently against your views.

By the way, the first word in this post was filled with rich irony. Good for the liver.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by Caffeine Socialism
[ Removed by Admin ] 
My above post was sarcasm. See that funny, clear liquid dripping off the last word? That's sarcasm juice. You seem to think that I'm on your side (I'm just presuming that). From what I have read of yours, I am patently against your views.

By the way, the first word in this post was filled with rich irony. Good for the liver.

 

Hey CS,

However you intended the above, your words are rich with something worth pursuing.

I would hope that you'd think about them as real good.

Whether or not you intended sarcasm, those words can serve to help many others who would, indeed, like to pursue this line of thinking.

Thank you for your words.  I like 'em.


PS:  I would like to recommend that you might consider using another salutation.  Someone could easily infer that you are using that man's name in profanity.  Seems that way to me.  And, he doesn't deserve that.


Patty

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by Caffeine Socialism
Well, one thing that I can infer from all of this is that metal wasn't meant for man. If everything in the universe was created as a toy from God's pet (humanity), then why should we have to go to great lengths and risk grave injury (at steel mills, or the like) to use it?

Caffeine, the earth and everything else was created before man. Maybe God had man in mind when He created it all, i don't know. But there is a chance of injury in everything, including even kids' wading pools. However, if you think of the usefulness of metal (its malleability, durability, reusability), that alone makes it a precious resource.

God bless!

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by Patty
It's so obvious, and just about everyone misses it.  Like seeing that picture of the cow.  At first, you can't see that the picture is of a cow, then when it's pointed out to you, you can never, ever miss it again.  If you're not familiar with the cow picture, I'll post it.

Patty, i haven't seen the cow. Could you please post it? I like things like that.

I'm still thinking about this. (i'm pretty slow at times, so it will take me a while)

God bless you, Patty!

 

[alexgb00]

Lewis, what do you mean when you say Christianity is a "minor" faith in the world? That's something i can't imagine. Can you name a bigger one?

Thanks.
Alex

 

[Christian Soldier]

"and there aren't any atheists in foxholes because we don't need to resort to violence and conflict to feel better about ourselves."

Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Mussolini were all atheists. Are you saying they never resorted to violence and conflict?