Science and Perfection

[Patty]

Originally posted by Lacmeh
Well I personally find nothing marvellous in veins of metals. I find other things more interesting or beautiful.
In my view of the universe, chemical and pysical processes were responsible for creating the elements, not God. Therefore I see not really a purpose in veins of metals. Just a natural occurance, which can be explained and is quite useful to us Humans. I am glad, that they are here and can be accessed.

Again, Lacmeh, I will state, what you say is what most folks seem to say.

Too late it will be when men realize what they've done.

Men are making a huge mistake in removing metals from the earth.

Men do not realize WHY metals are there.

It will be far too late when men realize this mistake. And, the results are going to be disastrous.


Patty

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by Patty
Again, Lacmeh, I will state, what you say is what most folks seem to say.

Too late it will be when men realize what they've done.

Men are making a huge mistake in removing metals from the earth.

Men do not realize WHY metals are there.

It will be far too late when men realize this mistake. And, the results are going to be disastrous.


Patty

What is your prediction?

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by David Gould
What is your prediction?

Hey David,

To respond to your question, I ask you this:

How much ore is removed from the earth?

How much matter comes out with the ore?

What is done with the stuff that they dig out with the ore?

How many holes are there in the earth?

Which way do the holes go - down, up straight ahead (more or less)?

What happens when the miners hit water?
This question is a real important one to me.

And, what will happen as a result of mining efforts, which seem to be going on at a near-frenzied pace these days?



Thanks,

Patty

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Blader, i was supporting Christian Soldier in his argument. I meant to say that atheistic rulers are, historically, more ruthless killers than non-atheists.

By that same token nonracists are far worse then racists because Stalin and Mao killed more people then Hitler.

Hence you cannot condem racism or blame it for any acts of bigotry unless you blame nonracism as well.

As for the topic, reductivism squashes holism any day.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by Patty
Hey David,

To respond to your question, I ask you this:

How much ore is removed from the earth?

How much matter comes out with the ore?

What is done with the stuff that they dig out with the ore?

How many holes are there in the earth?

Which way do the holes go - down, up straight ahead (more or less)?

What happens when the miners hit water?
This question is a real important one to me.

And, what will happen as a result of mining efforts, which seem to be going on at a near-frenzied pace these days?



Thanks,

Patty

How much ore is removed from the earth?  


None - it all stays here.   Seriously, though, I have no idea. Millions and millions of tonnes - a tiny fraction of the mass of the earth.


How much matter comes out with the ore? Millions and millions of tonnes.

What is done with the stuff that they dig out with the ore? Some of it is put back, some of it is dumped in tailings, much of it lies around in mounds and gets grown over after a few decades.

Of course, a town like Queenstown in Tasmania shows that this does not always happen - the place does not grow plants anymore because of the stuff they dug up.

How many holes are there in the earth? Many, many. But they are only very small in comparison to the size of the earth. Johanesburg is built on top of an area riddled with mines. Some people have worried that some of the buildings may be in danger of collapsing one day.

 The deepest mine is only a few miles deep - by comparison, the Earth is thousands of kilometres in diametre.

Which way do the holes go - down, up straight ahead (more or less)? I am not sure. Usually they go down a way and then along. They follow the seams of ore.

What happens when the miners hit water? Sometimes that means the end of the mine. They can pump the water out of various areas to dig into them if they have to but the returns need to be worth while.


Much of the above is educated guesswork, however.

Mines do not make a significant dent in the the earth as yet.

Impact craters like the gulf of mexico show how insignificant our hole digging has been.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by David Gould
How much ore is removed from the earth?  


None - it all stays here.   Seriously, though, I have no idea. Millions and millions of tonnes - a tiny fraction of the mass of the earth.


How much matter comes out with the ore? Millions and millions of tonnes.

What is done with the stuff that they dig out with the ore? Some of it is put back, some of it is dumped in tailings, much of it lies around in mounds and gets grown over after a few decades.

Of course, a town like Queenstown in Tasmania shows that this does not always happen - the place does not grow plants anymore because of the stuff they dug up.

How many holes are there in the earth? Many, many. But they are only very small in comparison to the size of the earth. Johanesburg is built on top of an area riddled with mines. Some people have worried that some of the buildings may be in danger of collapsing one day.

 The deepest mine is only a few miles deep - by comparison, the Earth is thousands of kilometres in diametre.

Which way do the holes go - down, up straight ahead (more or less)? I am not sure. Usually they go down a way and then along. They follow the seams of ore.

What happens when the miners hit water? Sometimes that means the end of the mine. They can pump the water out of various areas to dig into them if they have to but the returns need to be worth while.


Much of the above is educated guesswork, however.

Mines do not make a significant dent in the the earth as yet.

Impact craters like the gulf of mexico show how insignificant our hole digging has been.

Hey David,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Consider for a moment this serious, serious question:
What is the purpose that metals serve in the earth?

Now, I'll disclose some of what I'm getting at.
I asked many questions about metals. What are they? Where do they come from? Where are they found? How are they found? How are they used? And, what purpose do they serve in the earth?

And, I discovered something. For the countless millenia that men have used metals, never before have metals been so abundantly mined and utilized as they are in this current day.

Look around you. Your home has rerod, hardware cloth and other metal objects in its framework. Your plumbing fixtures and some of the pipes are metal. Your small and large appliances are of metal. Your clothing has metal buttons, zippers and clasps. And, they're put on with metal tools. Your computer is made of metals. Your tables and other furniture are composed, in part, of metal items. Your streets have metal components. Your bridges and other thruways have metal framework. There are metal streetlights, signs and signals. Just consider how much metal has been used in the vehicles driven in North America alone, since the inception of the motor vehicle. And, there's more, many more things made of metal.

Much of what is made of metal these days is discarded within a short time. The waste dumps are full of metals.

In my pondering, I found a sketch of a cross-section of a gold mine. Instantly, I saw something startling to me. I saw, from looking at that sketch, what metals do for the earth. And, I was shocked beyond comprehension.

Metal is the CAULKING of the earth. It is metal that binds the structures of the earth together - integrous. Metal maintains the integrity of the mountains, hills and other geographic aspects of the earth.

There are more things that I can discuss besides metals. For instance, look at the forests that are disappearing so very rapidly these days. Men destroy the forests to find ores, to clear land for manufacturing plants, to obtain lumber, and to build housing tracts.

If you were to marvel at the forests in their perfection, you'd discover that they provide many important things to the earth. Food, shelter, watershed, breathable air, to name a few. Forests are to be marvelled at and not destroyed.

Then, look at the waterways in North America. When the pilgrims landed in 1521, how many waterways were clean? All of them. How many forests existed? Abundant were their numbers.

Today, how many waterways are clean in North America? Maybe 3. Water is a scarce commodity. The US Geological Survey Team is avidly searching for underground sources of water - aquifers - to meet the water needs of men. WHY??? There had been so much water to drink and use before 1940!! Now, it's just about all polluted by industrial and domestic waste.

Why were these things not harmed before this past century? Probably because there had been little to no mining in this continent, compared to what is happening today. I heard the other day that diamonds are voraciously being mined in Canada nowadays. Why?? For money.

For money, men dig up the earth to make discardable merchandise.
For money, men destroy ancient forests to make discardable things.
For money, men pollute the waters to get rid of the discards from what they do.

Now, when will it all end, David?

Is it going to continue?? It can't. The earth is being destroyed so rapidly today that it's not going to continue for long. It can't.


The air is polluted. There are few trees to replenish our oxygen. Seventy percent of the earth's breathable oxygen comes from the few remaining rain forests, which are being reduced as I type.


If only men had stopped to marvel at the perfection of what exists and had asked why do these things exist as they do, before they destroyed these things, it might have been different.

That's my point.

Patty

 

[Nathan Poe]

Carl Sagan commented on this in his last book, Billions and Billions. He calls for preservation of the environment, because scientists have had a histroy of being short-sighted. They find new and convenient ways to do things without looking at long-term effects (Sagan uses CFCs as an example) and then hands them off to governments and/or corporations.

Should we be impressed by the world around us? Of course.

But wouldn't we be even more impressed if we had a good knowledge of how it all worked together? Of course again.

Can we ever truly know how something works without taking it apart and seeing what makes it tick? If there's a surefire way, I'm open to suggestions.

Have scientists opened Pandora's Box? More times than we can count.

Is that any reason to quit? Hell no.

Is that a reason to be more cautious before selling science to the highest bidder? Hell yes.

And so it continues. . .

P.S. Patty, I'm hearing some serious implications for Intelligent Design in your posts. If that's where you're going with this, we've got plenty of ID debates going around this forum.

 

[Morat]

Metal is the CAULKING of the earth. It is metal that binds the structures of the earth together - integrous. Metal maintains the integrity of the mountains, hills and other geographic aspects of the earth.

  No, it doesn't. First off, you seem to think metal in the earth is like it is refined. No. Metal in the earth is ore. Rock with a high concentration of a certain metal. It looks and acts just like a rock without it.

   The strength, metaling point, ductility and all isn't changed much. So I'm at a loss as to how rock that is very much like other rock can be so important.

 

 

[Patty]

bump

 

[Zadok001]

Patty:

Metal is not caulking. I figured you were going for some kind of Gaean Earth-deity perspective in re-reading this thread, but you're working off false assumptions: Specifically, that metal somehow holds the Earth together. This is simply not the case.

You're right, in that we (as a species) are doing horrible, objectionable things to our natural living environment, and should probably stop. We tear down forests in the name of the bottom line, and this type of behavior may lead to our eradication if not stopped. This is a relevant, and very important, thing to recognize.

However, I object heartily to your decision to hold your 'revelation' back for nine pages. On an immediete level, I object because I've just read eight pages containing essentially no useful information. Your argument is simplicity defined, and could have been presented in one tight, concise post. You can expect that it would then be treated with all deserving respect.

On a more important level, however, I object to your decision to drag this out. By hiding your argument on the ninth page, and playing coy games throughout, you discourage people from listening to you. People don't want to read through your games and hints and teases for nine pages. And more importantly, they WON'T. You have destroyed your own argument, by refusing to present it rationally and quickly. The other posters here won't read your argument, because they won't get this far. A few will persevere, but the vast majority will turn aside after two pages, or read only the final page, leaving your entire train of reasoning behind in the dust. For an argument you think has far-reaching repercussions, you have shown insufficient respect.

In the future, if you want to make a point, make it in a timely manner. You undermine your own thinking by failing to do so.

 

[Patty]

Hey Zadok001,

If you'll notice, lots of folks posted on this thread.

However, in response to your request, next time maybe I'll post a topic using the "Dick and Jane" method - just for you, kiddo.

See Spot run.
Go, Spot, go.


Patty

 

[anon5354]

Patty:

I think you are confusing philosophy with science. When you ask scientists questions, they can only tell you "how" did the metal form on earth. As for "why" they are on earth, no one knows. That's like asking why you are human and not a gorilla.

I think most scientist DO marvel at the complexity of nature, this is usually the reason why they become scientists. I also think that scientists are mostly at the frontline of environmental conservation method as most environmental effects by human are first noticed by them. It is the consumer-culture and industrial development that is causing the major environmental problems today.

 

[David Gould]

Patty,

I agree that we need to be more careful in regard to our environment.

However, metals do not provide structure to the earth. Most metals do not occur naturally as elements. Instead, they are mainly locked in compounds, which our refining processes break down to extract the pure metal.

In addition, the amount of metal that humans have extracted from the Earth is a tiny, tiny fraction of the total therein. If we mined at a steadily increasing rate for another 10,000 years, we would probably have most of it out, though.

There have been no collapses of hills or mountains caused by the removal of metal veins from their internal structure, which should be the case if they are as significant as you make out.

Indeed, simply cutting a vein in half should cause slippage of a hill if they are important in this regard. 

 

[lucaspa]

Yesterday at 08:04 PM Patty said this in Post #91

See Spot run.
Go, Spot, go.


Patty

This is the simplistic idea of "perfection" that early 19th century naturalists had. They quickly learned that all organisms are not perfect.

However, scientists did learn from nature. They learned that natural selection is a better Designer than humans. So now humans use natural selection when the design problem is too tough for them.