School Prayer

[ebia]

Secularism, nobody arguing for or against any religious position = neutral ground.

Removing religion from the set of possible discussions is to tacitly support a position that marginalises relgion.

You're right the question wasn't 'what can students survive' at all, it was why can't Christians.

And Christians can't be students?

I'm so tired of hearing this Catholic school sycophancy, while my mother was head of student welfare she helped create a program to assist young mothers in getting their HSC, that first year they enrolled 6 girls and, later, 3 more girls under 16 years mid term who'd been expelled from Catholic schools. Private schools are concerned with their reputation first and foremost.

We work harder to try to get our difficult students through their VCE than the state schools in our area. We certainly don't maintain our position by loosing the kids who will not achieve well. But then we aren't a posh private school.

Do you teach the students these childish, semantic games in any of your classes?

Oh, touchy.

And that might be fine in a Catholic private school where the parents know what they are getting their children into. The expectation in enrolling at a public school is that the teachers are free to hold whatever religious belief they wish but are not to proselytize or interfere with a child's religious upbringing.

I'm not suggesting teachers in state schools should be proselytizing.

The state is not a parent.

A school has not choice but to function in some of the roles of parent if it is to function.

 

[Belk]

Removing religion from the set of possible discussions is to tacitly support a position that marginalises relgion.

Religion is not removed from the set of possible discussion. Promoting one religion as better then any other is removed from the set of possible discussions.

 

[Gishin]

I never understood why some religious people want someone else to teach their child religion, but get all huffy when it comes time for sex ed. "I'll teach my children about that stuff, you stay out of it!"

 

[wanderingone]

Less effectively - this is exactly the stuff that religions are good at.

Which religions? All religions are good at community? Being a responsible citizen in your community depends on religious teaching? Really? Why?

 

[ebia]

Religion is not removed from the set of possible discussion. Promoting one religion as better then any other is removed from the set of possible discussions.

Then we don't have any disagreement.

And prayer if (over the course of time) it reflects the full diversity of the student body? I.e including a-religious reflections, Islamic prayer, Christians prayer, ....

 

[Belk]

Then we don't have any disagreement.

And prayer if (over the course of time) it reflects the full diversity of the student body? I.e including a-religious reflections, Islamic prayer, Christians prayer, ....

All prayer is allowed in schools. Currently there are prohibitions on who can lead a prayer and on certain situational prayers (team captain leading a prayer over the intercom prior to a game). Some of those I see as being correct but some strike me as being overreactions because of the worry of litigation. Students are free to join together with like minded students to pray however they want so long as it does not disrupt other students and staff.

 

[ebia]

All prayer is allowed in schools. Currently there are prohibitions on who can lead a prayer and on certain situational prayers (team captain leading a prayer over the intercom prior to a game). Some of those I see as being correct but some strike me as being overreactions because of the worry of litigation. Students are free to join together with like minded students to pray however they want so long as it does not disrupt other students and staff.

I meant more formally. Like we begin homeroom with a prayer each morning.

 

[wanderingone]

I meant more formally. Like we begin homeroom with a prayer each morning.

What does a prayer contribute to the educational process?

 

[ebia]

What does a prayer contribute to the educational process?

We want to raise reflective, empathic, citizens don't we? Preferably one's who have been exposed to all the diversity that exists in their larger community.

 

[Belk]

I meant more formally. Like we begin homeroom with a prayer each morning.

It would have to be student lead and happen prior to class. I know in my high school there was a group that got together for morning prayer.

 

[ebia]

I never understood why some religious people want someone else to teach their child religion, but get all huffy when it comes time for sex ed. "I'll teach my children about that stuff, you stay out of it!"

As an article on educating boys I read recently pointed out, the last person any teenage boy wants to talk about sex with is his dad - because that involves thinking about who dad has sex with.

 

[ebia]

It would have to be student lead and happen prior to class. I know in my high school there was a group that got together for morning prayer.

You haven't really answered the point of my question - why should prayer be excluded from the formal part of schooling if it reflects the full diversity of the student body?

 

[Belk]

You haven't really answered the point of my question - why should prayer be excluded from the formal part of schooling if it reflects the full diversity of the student body?

Mostly to avoid issues that have come up with the separation (in the U.S. obviously) of church and state. Why do you feel prayer needs to be part of the formal schooling curriculum?

 

[ebia]

Mostly to avoid issues that have come up with the separation (in the U.S. obviously) of church and state. Why do you feel prayer needs to be part of the formal schooling curriculum?

As I said to wanderingone, to encourage reflection, empathy, consideration of wider issue and those in less fortunate positions than ourselves, and to encourage exposure to the full diversity of traditions present in the community.

One government school I spent some time in in Melbourne had students born in something like 71 different countries. Wouldn't it be worth 1 minute of each day to expose the student body to the diversity of culture and tradition that represents?

 

[PsychMJC]

I meant more formally. Like we begin homeroom with a prayer each morning.

Why? Why can't you or your children quietly pray to yourselves if you feel like you have to? Why do I or my children have to be forced to pray YOUR prayer with you whenever you feel like it is necessary?

I know. Because you don't actually CARE about praying to God, you CARE about making OTHER people pray to YOUR God.

 

[Belk]

As I said to wanderingone, to encourage reflection, empathy, consideration of wider issue and those in less fortunate positions than ourselves, and to encourage exposure to the full diversity of traditions present in the community.

One government school I spent some time in in Melbourne had students born in something like 71 different countries. Wouldn't it be worth 1 minute of each day to expose the student body to the diversity of culture and tradition that represents?

Why must this be done by praying at the beginning of school? Are there not other methods, perhaps even more effective methods to achieve this end then in having the kids offer up a prayer?

 

[ebia]

Why must this be done by praying at the beginning of school? Are there not other methods, perhaps even more effective methods to achieve this end then in having the kids offer up a prayer?

What I'm suggesting is a reflection appropriate to their culture and tradition. Where that's naturally a prayer, why should it not take that form - after all we want to encourage respect for diversity of religious tradition? To exclude prayer from that would seem highly artificial and counter-productive.

Your separation of church and state was probably a necessary reaction to what was going on in most of europe at the time, but one can't help suspect that it's part of what breeds fundamentalism and insular thinking.

You don't want the state pushing one particular religious view, but when it tries to avoid that by stiffling moderate and diverse religious expression what you get is an increase in fundamentalist religious expression.

What we want is increased understanding and respect for the diversity of religious and cultural expression, but we aren't going to get that from privatising religious expression.

 

[Belk]

What I'm suggesting is a reflection appropriate to their culture and tradition. Where that's naturally a prayer, why should it not take that form - after all we want to encourage respect for diversity of religious tradition? To exclude prayer from that would seem highly artificial and counter-productive.

But it is not being excluded. As I said it seems alive and well and students partake freely.

Your separation of church and state was probably a necessary reaction to what was going on in most of europe at the time, but one can't help suspect that it's part of what breeds fundamentalism and insular thinking.

You don't want the state pushing one particular religious view, but when it tries to avoid that by stiffling moderate and diverse religious expression what you get is an increase in fundamentalist religious expression.

But the moderate and diverse views are not being stifled. They are simply not being formalized by those in charge.

What we want is increased understanding and respect for the diversity of religious and cultural expression, but we aren't going to get that from privatising religious expression.

I do not see use getting that from having the students offer prayers from a bunch of different religions either. Why not just discuss the different religions, their beliefs, and encourage the students to support the diversity they find around them? Would this not achieve the same function with out causing a bunch of issues?

 

[ebia]

But it is not being excluded. As I said it seems alive and well and students partake freely.




But the moderate and diverse views are not being stifled. They are simply not being formalized by those in charge.

These a significant difference between the signficance of what happens informally, and what is formalised and part of the way the whole community operates.

I do not see use getting that from having the students offer prayers from a bunch of different religions either.

Surely that's part of the point - to expose students even to things they don't see the point of and/or don't agree with in a controlled way. That's how you build a respectful diverse community.

Why not just discuss the different religions, their beliefs, and encourage the students to support the diversity they find around them? Would this not achieve the same function with out causing a bunch of issues?

That's good as well, but there is a difference between experiencing praxis and talking about it. And that lacks the reflective element.

Besides, a good deal of my point is that we ought to be dealing with these issues, not trying to avoid them.

 

[Gishin]

The Campus Crusade for Christ at my highschool prayed every morning before class. There were no problems, they got to pray but they didn't infringe on anyone's class time.