School Field Trip to Teacher's Lesbian Wedding Sparks Controversy

[Crazy Liz]

How do you define "respecting their marriage?"

We could begin with not trying to seduce either of them or break them up.

 

[No Swansong]

We could begin with not trying to seduce either of them or break them up.

I would agree but has this been a problem?

 

[Texas Lynn]

Do you have statistics Lynn that show a correlation between parents who want to opt out of Sexual Education classes and sexual abuse?

Not personally, no. But research-based risk assessment matrices positively correleate religious rigidity with risk to children. These are standard throughout agencies across the world.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I would agree but has this been a problem?

Well, let's see. Extended families do. Certain churches do. Some thoughtless busybodies such as workplace acquaintances do.

 

[Texas Lynn]

How do you define "respecting their marriage?"

I suppose it would mean treating them as one would treat a heterosexual couple.

 

[No Swansong]

Well, let's see. Extended families do. Certain churches do. Some thoughtless busybodies such as workplace acquaintances do.

People are people and whether we like it or not families will always interfere it's your choice whether or not you give them the ability to affect you.

As for Churches if you don't like the doctrine leave.

In the workplace laws exist to protect against harrassment, utilize them.

 

[No Swansong]

Not personally, no. But research-based risk assessment matrices positively correleate religious rigidity with risk to children. These are standard throughout agencies across the world.

I would be willing to bet this has far more to do with corporal punishment than sexual abuse.

 

[Crazy Liz]

People are people and whether we like it or not families will always interfere it's your choice whether or not you give them the ability to affect you.

You might as well say people are people and people will always commit adultery.

The argument I made was that the commandments against adultery and against coveting your neighbor's wife show a biblical principle of respect for your neighbor's marriage.

As for Churches if you don't like the doctrine leave.

Are you really sure this kind of consumerist attitude toward Christian community is a good one?

In the workplace laws exist to protect against harrassment, utilize them.

OK.

So what does all this have to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[No Swansong]

You might as well say people are people and people will always commit adultery.

The argument I made was that the commandments against adultery and against coveting your neighbor's wife show a biblical principle of respect for your neighbor's marriage.

And I agreed.

Are you really sure this kind of consumerist attitude toward Christian community is a good one?

About as good a one as those who purposely try to change doctrine and dogma that has stood for 2000 years. I really don't have a problem with someone trying to say that a particular doctrine is wrong, opening a dialog and attempting to peacefully affect change, but I do have a problem with those who take it upon themselves to defy such doctrines unilaterally, and then attempt to force such changes on the body as a whole.

OK.

So what does all this have to do with the topic of this thread?

I was simply answering Lynn's post.

 

[Texas Lynn]

People are people and whether we like it or not families will always interfere it's your choice whether or not you give them the ability to affect you.

True. However the role of churches and religious discussion is to improve relationships. A church which encourages the expression of homophobia by its adherents does not serve God in doing so.

As for Churches if you don't like the doctrine leave.

Some do, some choose to stay and fight for what is right. It's an individual decision.

In the workplace laws exist to protect against harrassment, utilize them.

When that is done against religious right partisans, they squeal that their free exercise of religion is being stifled and get right wing lawyers like Jay Sekulow to represent them.

 

[Texas Lynn]

...those who purposely try to change doctrine and dogma that has stood for 2000 years.

In no way can it be said that bigotry against LGBTs constitutes such. Taxonomy of sexual orientations is a quite recent development. People including biblical patriarchs had no idea what they were dealing with in that area. No "doctrine" as such exists.

I really don't have a problem with someone trying to say that a particular doctrine is wrong, opening a dialog and attempting to peacefully affect change, but I do have a problem with those who take it upon themselves to defy such doctrines unilaterally, and then attempt to force such changes on the body as a whole.

There'a lot of caveats there. Ultimately each individual decides on their own ethical conduct. Unjust doctrines demand defiance from persons of integrity. "The body as a whole" does not exist except in every particular church body or denomination. Attempting to change doctrines in the denominations is no more or no less a moral action than seeking to keep it from being changed.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Crazy Liz,

I'm trying to understand how your response answers my point.

My response consists of questions to you that answered should show you your point is flawed. How can commandments which say do not commit adultery apply to gays?

I think you just said they are.

No my position is that I don’t think they are gay, if you think they are how does a same sex couple get to be a father and mother?

When you stop contradicting yourself, we may be able to understand each other.

when you address my questions about your statements you will see I am not contradicting myself.

Can you show me where God's word says paedophilia harms and is error?

I have done, you need to show me how God’s word says either paedophilia or same sex unions doesn’t harm people.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,
How come same sex prohibitions is bogotry against LGBT people but adultery isnt bigotry against straight people? How come theft prohibition isnt bigotry against people who are thieves?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Originally Posted by No Swansong

...those who purposely try to change doctrine and dogma that has stood for 2000 years.​

Total and utter myth... in Europe, homosexuality was first really vilified in an organised way in the 5th Century as a political scapegoating tool. Before that time, homosexual relationships were socially acceptible, and in many places, equal in standing to that of heterosexuals. Even since then acceptance of homosexuality within Christendom has gone through different phases, at times more acceptible than others. I STRONGLY suggest that you might like to look up something about the history of homosexuality within Christianity using non-biased sources. You'll find it quite interesting. No, from about 450AD onwards, homosexuality has never been fully accepted within the church, however, to suggest that there is 2000 years of unambiguous and consistent condemnation is simply not true.

*rolls eyes* And yes, I KNOW what the Bible says... please remember that there weren't any English versions of the Bible until about 500 years ago, and that what your English version says regarding a highly specific and nuanced concept has as much to do with the social norms and beliefs of the interpreters 500 years ago as it does with the original texts.
​

 

[brightmorningstar]

The trouble is the non biased sources you refer to are biased. The Bible is reliable as there is none of the biased stuff you look to in it, the books were carefully justified and the plethora of material used for subsequent translations supports its validity.
The gay argument seeks to dismiss and refuse to acknowledge anything and everything that doesn'tfir the gay thinking. The bottom line is this forum encourages citations from the Bible to support the Christian position.

 

[Texas Lynn]

To Texas Lynn,
How come same sex prohibitions is bogotry against LGBT people but adultery isnt bigotry against straight people?

In some cases it is. In some of our more activist right-wing churches which continually attack LGBTs and their families you will find perhaps as many as 1/4 to 1/2 of the married couples have been previously married or divorced, either the husband or wife or both, some more than once. Indeed, the states with the higest divorce rates (Alabama, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Missouri...) are the buckles on the Bible Belt while liberal states that are more tolerant of LGBTs (Massachusetts, New York, California, Oregon...) have the lowest divorce rates. It is rank hypocricy for the fundamentalists in Oklahoma to forgive the unrepentant sin in their fellow church members' divorces and remarriages while they continually spew invective against LGBTs.

How come theft prohibition isnt bigotry against people who are thieves?

Hmmm. People on the right wing tend to be generally silently forgiving of Sarah Palin's bilking of Alaska taxpayers which is certainly a form of government graft, which is theft.

Rather than argue absurd comparisons which do not take into account the complexities of life, it is better to not express judgment.

 

[Texas Lynn]

The bottom line is this forum encourages citations from the Bible to support the Christian position.

There is specific "Christian" position on the issues as like this one on most given issues Christians will favor both (or all, if it's not an either/or proposition) positions.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,

In some cases it is. In some of our more activist right-wing churches which continually attack LGBTs and their families you will find perhaps as many as 1/4 to 1/2 of the married couples have been previously married or divorced, either the husband or wife or both, some more than once.

Not sure I understand any of that. How do LG people form families? God’s purpose is fo marriage between a man and a woman, divorce can therefore only be between a man and a woman,

Hmmm. People on the right wing tend to be generally silently forgiving of Sarah Palin's bilking of Alaska taxpayers which is certainly a form of government graft, which is theft.

So they don’t promote theft the like liberals promote same sex unions, good for the right wing.

The bottom line is this forum encourages citations from the Bible to support the Christian position.

There is specific "Christian" position on the issues as like this one on most given issues Christians will favor both (or all, if it's not an either/or proposition) positions.

That’s just your view, mine is that this forum encourages citations from the Bible to support the Christian position.
If you have some scriptures form both testaments that countenances same sex unions please provide it and we can match it against the dozen we can see exclude it and condemn it. If you cant I fail to see how you can put the Christian position.

 

[Texas Lynn]

How do LG people form families?

Same as heterosexuals pretty much, though often with more variations.

God’s purpose is fo marriage between a man and a woman...

That's your opinion. Others disagree.

...

divorce can therefore only be between a man and a woman...

Not in jurisdictions which permit same gender marriage. And even elsewhere such as in Iowa same gender divorces have been granted.

So they don’t promote theft the like liberals promote same sex unions, good for the right wing.

Precisely the opposite of what I said--by endorsing a known unethical public official who has used state funds to pay for living in her own house and travel to political functions for her family, they endorse it.

If you have some scriptures form both testaments that countenances same sex unions please provide it and we can match it against the dozen we can see exclude it and condemn it. If you cant I fail to see how you can put the Christian position.

Not all Christians are fundamentalists. Your methodology there only works for them and they are only a small segment of Christians.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,

Same as heterosexuals pretty much, though often with more variations.

so presumably a gay man and a lesbian woman conceive children and start a family, that’s how straight couple do it. Surely though that would make the gay man and lesbian woman straight?

That's your opinion. Others disagree.

Then it cant be the same God. Christians believe in the God whose testimony is in the Bible, the Bible says God created woman for man, male and female, and it was for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife (Gen 2, Matt 19, Eph 5 etc) You aren’t trying to tell me Christians don’t believe the Bible are you?

Not in jurisdictions which permit same gender marriage.

same gender marriage is a human concept and against God’s purposes as I have demonstrated from scripture.

Not all Christians are fundamentalists. Your methodology there only works for them and they are only a small segment of Christians.

Yes they are, one has to be fundamentally Christian to be Christian, if you cant provide some scriptural evidence from both testaments that countenances same sex unions I don’t think you cant put the Christian position.