Schizophrenic Christianity

[jimmyjimmy]

Hope to get some wisdom from my Reformed brethren. I will be frank, and hope get some honest answers to this question.

I've many churches, even Reformed churches, give a mixed message when it comes to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone. It disturbs my rest in Christ when a preacher takes a passage and then turns my eyes back on me. Lets's face it. There are passages that sound as if no one is really saved until his works are examined and he comes up as righteous.

Recently, I heard a sermon that had the word, Gospel, in the title, and it was based on Mark 8:

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save their lifeb will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
​

If that's the gospel, then I clearly don't understand what the gospel is, and I'm in big trouble as well; however, I don't think it is the gospel.

I can have no peace if salvation has anything to do with my performance. Who could sleep a wink if they thought it did?!

How did the Reformers handle the NT warnings without simply dismissing them? What did they do with texts which seem as though salvation is by works?

 

[frienden thalord]

IF we just follow , obey the holy spirit , its simple easy and the burden is light.
However most do explain away the new test . Me , by grace I just live it.

 

[Winken]

Hope to get some wisdom from my Reformed brethren. I will be frank, and hope get some honest answers to this question.

I've many churches, even Reformed churches, give a mixed message when it comes to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone. It disturbs my rest in Christ when a preacher takes a passage and then turns my eyes back on me. Lets's face it. There are passages that sound as if no one is really saved until his works are examined and he comes up as righteous.

Recently, I heard a sermon that had the word, Gospel, in the title, and it was based on Mark 8:

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save their lifeb will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
​

If that's the gospel, then I clearly don't understand what the gospel is, and I'm in big trouble as well.

I can have no peace if salvation has anything to do with my performance. Who could sleep a wink if they thought it did?!

How do the Reformed handle the NT warnings without simply dismissing them?

That passage in Mark was written to Jews. It was not written to born-again Believers in Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

[frienden thalord]

Winken. that is not true.
JESUS sayings are for all believers. Winken you just broke my heart.
Why let men teach that kind of stuff . Winken , get out of them churches.
Find the real joy of JESUS and ALL his sayings on the heart.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That passage in Mark was written to Jews. It was not written to born-again Believers in Jesus Christ as Savior.

I think that you are on to something.

Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, we were only getting glimpses of the NC, but the fullness of it had not - could not come until He finished His work on our behalf.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I sometimes feel as if I'm being pulled from one covenant to another, and sometimes within the same sermon!

 

[FireDragon76]

Don't the Reformed have the Law-Gospel distinction? Jesus is preaching Law here, not Gospel.

For those who have faith, the law ceases to be condemnation and becomes an invitation. An invitation is not an ultimatum. For those without faith, yes, what Jesus is saying is fearful news, but seen through faith, what Jesus is saying is an invitation to a life of freedom and winsomeness (and in every one of us, there is a struggle between the old and new man, so it is OK if you feel a bit challenged by this passage).

Us Lutherans have a saying, before Jesus can be your Lord, he has to be your savior. Just trust in Jesus and everything else will follow from that. Trust the hard sayings are for your own good and not your condemnation.

 

[Winken]

Winken. that is not true.
JESUS sayings are for all believers. Winken you just broke my heart.
Why let men teach that kind of stuff . Winken , get out of them churches.
Find the real joy of JESUS and ALL his sayings on the heart.

Dear Brother in Christ, I teach according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[RC1970]

Hope to get some wisdom from my Reformed brethren. I will be frank, and hope get some honest answers to this question.

I've many churches, even Reformed churches, give a mixed message when it comes to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone. It disturbs my rest in Christ when a preacher takes a passage and then turns my eyes back on me. Lets's face it. There are passages that sound as if no one is really saved until his works are examined and he comes up as righteous.

Recently, I heard a sermon that had the word, Gospel, in the title, and it was based on Mark 8:

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save their lifeb will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
​

If that's the gospel, then I clearly don't understand what the gospel is, and I'm in big trouble as well.

I can have no peace if salvation has anything to do with my performance. Who could sleep a wink if they thought it did?!

How do the Reformed handle the NT warnings without simply dismissing them?

To understand this passage you have to understand the Jewish way of thinking concerning the sacrificial death of the Messiah. It was a completely shameful thing to contemplate.

Jesus was saying to be saved you have to be ashamed of this life and turn to the cross. Not something a proud Jew was willing to do naturally.

 

[Dwells]

The gospel is about establishing God's Kingdom on earth. That is Jesus' gospel, His message and His purpose.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Don't the Reformed have the Law-Gospel distinction?

Not precisely. Whereas Lutheranism tends to stress the Law as being what drives us to the Gospel, traditional Reformed doctrine has stressed more the function of the Law as a continuing guide for Christian ethics. This had led many more conservative Reformed believers to accuse Lutherans (and those of the Escondido school of Reformed thought who echo many Lutheran concepts) of antinomianism. Contrariwise, many Lutherans have accused us of legalism (I think, justifiably).

In theory, the Law-as-ethical-guide is not to be used with any further condemnation to the believer. And thus, in theory, it should be we and not Lutherans who have the better working relation with Eastern Orthodoxy, since this is more or less its understanding (once you peel away at the layers of the East's misunderstandings about sola fide and our own misunderstandings about what they mean by salvation by faith plus works). But in practice I've found that there is a greater tendency for even the most experimental, Jonathan-Edwards Puritans to do nothing but endlessly analyze and debate the Law and then run their mouth off about its application to fields with which they have little to no practical acquaintance. And in the mean time, Escondido types (who, let's be honest, are really just wannabe Anglicans with presbyterial instead of episcopal church-government) treat any attempt to apply the Law consistently, especially in the public sphere, as a betrayal of the Church and her Gospel, to the point that they crap on anti-abortion protests and consistent adherence to the regulative principle of worship. It's an unfortunate situation.

It might be helpful to the OP to read the following thread on Puritan Board:
What is the Reformed view of Law/Gospel?

 

[frienden thalord]

Dear Brother in Christ, I teach according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The WHO. IF we read what JESUS said to them
he said I wll send the comforter and he shall remind YOU of ALL things I have said.
The HOLY SPIRIT wont omit what JESUS said. Winken test those spirits asap.

 

[Winken]

The WHO. IF we read what JESUS said to them
he said I wll send the comforter and he shall remind YOU of ALL things I have said.
The HOLY SPIRIT wont omit what JESUS said. Winken test those spirits asap.

Jesus was speaking directly to the 12 concerning their ministry among the Jews. Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth is critical to your understanding.

2 Timothy 2:15, KJV.

 

[frienden thalord]

Jesus was speaking directly to the 12 concerning their ministry among the Jews. Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth is critical to your understanding.

2 Timothy 2:15, KJV.

to the same twelve he said go tell it to ALL NATIONS . jews and ALL.
yes rightly dividing the word is crucial.

 

[hedrick]

Recently, I heard a sermon that had the word, Gospel, in the title, and it was based on Mark 8:
....
How did the Reformers handle the NT warnings without simply dismissing them? What did they do with texts which seem as though salvation is by works?

As Jesus used the term, the Gospel is the news that he’s bringing the Kingdom, and that God is calling people to join it, and forgiving them.

The passage quoted from Mark 8 isn’t labelled by Jesus as Gospel, but its call for obedience is a major theme with Jesus. In my opinion it’s talking about how we respond to the Gospel.

As others have noted, the Reformed tradition doesn’t have quite the Lutheran dialectic between Law and Gospel, though we certainly see a distinction. What’s different is that Calvin saw faith as producing two parallel results: justification and sanctification. Justification is God’s acceptance of us. It’s stable, remaining even when we sin. Sanctification is our response.

As I see it, the Gospel is the basis of justification. It’s the news that God is coming and justifying sinners. Mark 8 is speaking of our response to the Gospel, which in traditional terms would probably be classified as sanctification, though I’m not a great fan of that term. Faith unites us to Christ and justifies us. It also produces the response in our lives. Salvation, in my view, includes both.

But I would associate the Gospel more with justification, and thus would say that Mark 8 is about our response to the Gospel.

I can have no peace if salvation has anything to do with my performance. Who could sleep a wink if they thought it did?!

To me salvation is the whole of God’s work in restoring his image. Thus it includes our response. Our acceptance by God doesn’t depend upon our performance, but Jesus is clear that we are expected to respond, and will be held accountable for that. Jesus’ teachings about judgement are generally parables, and there are lots of specifics that are open to debate, including how much actually applies to Christians. For something less metaphorical and more explicitly applicable to Christians, I suggest you look at 1 Cor 3:12. It doesn’t suggest that you should lie awake in fear of going to hell, but does suggest that there will be consequences. Similarly Jesus’ teaching about what matters in eternity (Mat 6:19).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

As Jesus used the term, the Gospel is the news that he’s bringing the Kingdom, and that God is calling people to join it, and forgiving them.

The passage quoted from Mark 8 isn’t labelled by Jesus as Gospel, but its call for obedience is a major theme with Jesus. In my opinion it’s talking about how we respond to the Gospel.

As others have noted, the Reformed tradition doesn’t have quite the Lutheran dialectic between Law and Gospel, though we certainly see a distinction. What’s different is that Calvin saw faith as producing two parallel results: justification and sanctification. Justification is God’s acceptance of us. It’s stable, remaining even when we sin. Sanctification is our response.

As I see it, the Gospel is the basis of justification. It’s the news that God is coming and justifying sinners. Mark 8 is speaking of our response to the Gospel, which in traditional terms would probably be classified as sanctification, though I’m not a great fan of that term. Faith unites us to Christ and justifies us. It also produces the response in our lives. Salvation, in my view, includes both.

But I would associate the Gospel more with justification, and thus would say that Mark 8 is about our response to the Gospel.



To me salvation is the whole of God’s work in restoring his image. Thus it includes our response. Our acceptance by God doesn’t depend upon our performance, but Jesus is clear that we are expected to respond, and will be held accountable for that. Jesus’ teachings about judgement are generally parables, and there are lots of specifics that are open to debate, including how much actually applies to Christians. For something less metaphorical and more explicitly applicable to Christians, I suggest you look at 1 Cor 3:12. It doesn’t suggest that you should lie awake in fear of going to hell, but does suggest that there will be consequences. Similarly Jesus’ teaching about what matters in eternity (Mat 6:19).

Thanks, Hedrick.

Many times during the sermon, the preacher said that if one failed to do as Mark laid out, Hell was the punishment. That's why I named this thread as I did. I can't rest and abide in Christ, yet try to justify myself at the same time. Unfortunately, this isn't the only church in which I have seen such schizophrenia.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thanks, Hedrick.

Many times during the sermon, the preacher said that if one failed to do as Mark laid out, Hell was the punishment. That's why I named this thread as I did. I can't rest and abide in Christ, yet try to justify myself at the same time. Unfortunately, this isn't the only church in which I have seen such schizophrenia.

All I can say is, "wow". If this is the essence of the sermon, and typical, then there is a gulf between that ethos and most Lutherans.

 

[hedrick]

Discussions like this reflect a genuine issue in soteriology. Both Jesus and Paul, in different ways, talk about God as accepting us despite our unworthiness. For Jesus it’s God’s fatherly love. For Paul it’s justification by faith. But both also talk about judgement by works. The theme is more visible in Jesus’ teaching, but you can see it in Paul as well.

So how do you have justification by faith and judgement by works?

In the case of Jesus I think you have it because he doesn’t acknowledge a separation of faith and life. Faith isn't any particular work, but it's a basic direction of our lives. There’s no sign that we can merit God’s love, but still, he seems to teach that being a follower is visible in our lives.

I went through all the passages on judgement on Matthew (which has the most instances) to get a sense of how this works. First, I found that his examples of judgement didn’t include people rejected for individual sins. Instead it seemed to be actions that reflect a basic orientation of the person. The two top categories that appear in the counts were people who showed no fruit, and people who rejected the Gospel. The only other causes that appear more than once are failing to forgive and refusal to repent. Repent in Jesus’ teaching means a change of direction of one’s life, not a check to make sure that we’ve repented for every individual sin. So this isn’t judgement by works in the sense of Santa Claus’ list of whether we’ve been naughty or nice, nor whether we’ve died with any unforgiven mortal sins, but it does expect that being a follower will be visible.

I think there’s also a sign of varying reward. 1 Cor 3:12 is one concept of how judgement might work for Jesus’ followers. This assumes that the passage is intended just for followers, and isn’t an indication of universalism.

Paul uses Abraham as his illustration of faith. In context it’s pretty clear that faith in this case meant trust in God. However the only way we know that he trusted God was because he relied on God’s promise in how he acted. I doubt that Paul thought the faith was a purely mental thing, but rather a basic orientation of our lives. The Greek word, after all, can also be translated faithfulness.

 

[Steve Petersen]

We are leaving the epistle of James out of the discussion?

Part of the difficulty comes from not understanding the idea of faith from a Jewish perspective. Faith (Heb. emunah) can be understood as both a noun and a verb. A person could rightly be said to be 'faithing.' I think James and Paul understand this, but only James takes the time to clarify the point. Faith will involve actions. They are sides of the same coin.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hedrick, are you speaking in general on the human condition, without alot of scholastic precision? I can think of many cases where no response is possible, or the response is feeble or uncertain. Such as cases of disability (we've talked before about how Calvin viewed children regarding election). In those cases, I'm not sure how a message of faith and evidential works would give the kind of assurance that we tend to want in our faith. Mentally and spiritually broken people walk into churches every day. Being able to simply tell them, God accepts you as you are, not because of what you do ,but because of who God is, is a powerful message.