Scapegoat

mkgal1 · Jan 3, 2019

I believe it takes two goats to demonstrate Jesus' crucifixion because of the paradox (He is both the victor over death - but also the "victim" of death and the One taking on sin all at the same time). This devotion - I believe - expresses that concept well:

Quoting Jesus as the Scapegoat: The book of Revelation presents the paradoxical image of a Lamb who is simultaneously slaughtered and standing, victim and victorious at the same time (see Revelation 5:6 and throughout). This is the transformative mystery in iconic form. We must put together these two seeming opposites in our own life.

Was God trying to solve a problem through what looked like the necessary death of Jesus? Or was God trying to reveal something central about the nature of God? Christians have historically taught that God was saving us from our sins. Maybe an even better way to say it is that Jesus was saving us through our sins. As Paul says with great subtlety, Jesus “became sin that we might become the very goodness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). In other words, Jesus becomes the problem to show us how to resolve the problem.

We are generally inclined to either create victims of others or play the victim ourselves, both of which are no solution but only perpetuate the problem. Jesus instead holds the pain—even becomes the pain—until it transforms him into a higher state, which we rightly call the risen life.

The crucified and resurrected Jesus shows us how to do this without denying, blaming, or projecting pain elsewhere. In fact, there is no “elsewhere.” Jesus is the victim in an entirely new way because he receives our hatred and does not return it, nor does he play the victim for his own empowerment. We find no self-pity or resentment in Jesus. He never asks his followers to avenge his murder. He suffers and does not make others suffer because of it. He does not use his suffering and death as power over others to punish them, but as power for others to transform them. ~ ~ https://cac.org/forgiving-victim-2017-05-03/

Pneuma3 · Jan 4, 2019

bling said:
Where is there anything in that verse about Yom Kipper?

Do a study on the word propitiation.

bling said:
Yes! Christ’s atoning sacrifice is for all sins of the whole world after he went to the cross, but He is not the Yon Kipper sacrifice which as I said did little according to the Hebrew writer: “…for the sins the people had committed in ignorance”.

bling said:
The Yom Kipper “shadow” was not for all sins (Heb. 9) and it was for “the people” referring to the Jews of the time those under The Law.

bling said:
Yom Kipper was once a year for the Jews and Heb. 9 “sins the people had committed in ignorance.” Christ’s sacrifice being one time for all sins of all people would include the sins of Yom Kipper, but He was not crucified to just replace Yom Kipper.

agnóēma is only used once in scripture and many other bibles simply translate it as error.
it means a thing ignored, ie shortcoming, error.

thus it could very well mean that they knew of their sins but ignored them, just like many do today.

And by reading Hebrew 9 and 10 it pretty much sums it all up that it was done ONCE and for ALL.

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2019

Bling said:
He was not crucified to just replace Yom Kipper.

I'm not certain what you mean here. Can you elaborate? I don't think that's really anyone's argument (that Jesus was crucified "to replace" Yom Kippur).

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2019

Bling said:
Is God the one being moved toward man or is man being moved toward God through atonement?

This is a good question, I think.

I am of the belief that John Duns Scotus (and the Franciscans) have it right when they say: "Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity; Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God." ~ https://cac.org/incarnation-instead-of-atonement-2016-02-12/

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Do you not realize it is Jesus Himself, as our High Priest, who will place all the sins that He paid for on the head of Satan

Where are you even getting that from?

That does so much violence to Christ's work on the cross. He "took on sin" - "became sin" for us. He didn't "scapegoat" our sin and send it off into the wilderness.

Quoting Fr Richard Rohr ~
In Leviticus 16 we see the brilliant ritualization of what we now call scapegoating, and we should indeed feel sorry for the demonized goat. On the Day of Atonement, a priest laid hands on an “escaping” goat, placing all the sins of the Jewish people from the previous year onto the animal. Then the goat was beaten with reeds and thorns, and driven out into the desert. And the people went home rejoicing, just as European Christians did after burning a supposed heretic at the stake. Whenever the “sinner” is excluded, our ego is delighted and feels relieved and safe. It sort of works, but only for a while. Usually the illusion only deepens and becomes catatonic, blind, and repetitive—because of course, scapegoating did not really work to eliminate the evil in the first place.

Jesus came to radically undo this illusory scapegoat mechanism.

bling · Jan 4, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
Do a study on the word propitiation.

OK, but it is only used twice, only by John and only concerning Christ’s atoning sacrifice, so it is hard to be sure of the exact definition.

What you need to show is how the sin offerings on Yom Kipper were propitiation of God’s wrath?

Pneuma3 said:
agnóēma is only used once in scripture and many other bibles simply translate it as error.
it means a thing ignored, ie shortcoming, error.

thus it could very well mean that they knew of their sins but ignored them, just like many do today.

And by reading Hebrew 9 and 10 it pretty much sums it all up that it was done ONCE and for ALL.

If they “ignored” sins they were aware of making why would they even care about participating in Yom Kipper and with that kind of intentional sinful heart would God allow them to participate?

No, it would mean: they did not know the Law will enough to know they had sinned (ignored God’s law or ignorance of God’s Law). It might be called an error on their part, but ignorance of the Law is no excuse even in todays court.

What Christ did was: “once and for all”, but it was not done just to stop the Yom Kipper sacrifices.

Can we agree, there seems to be three types or even degrees of sin addressed in the Old Testament:

The first group of sins are unintentional sins (mistakes done hastily) and there was an atonement process in Lev. 5 which explains how these could be atoned for and forgiven by God.

The second group were more planed out, intentional sins directly against God, yet could seemingly be “minor”, but are hugely significant like intentionally picking up sticks for a fire on the Sabbath. These sins had no atonement process and were to be dealt with swiftly and without mercy resulting in banishment or death. (These sins everyone was committing and mature adults still commit today, so we are all deserving of severe punishment).

The third group of sins were done in ignorance (for whatever reason) and unlike the unintentional sins which the sinner became aware of later (Lev. 5 but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed), these sins they still seem ignorant of.

These sins of ignorance where atoned for with the Yom Kipper sacrifice.

Jesus’ sacrifice does not just replace the Yom Kipper sacrificing, but is the atonement sacrifice of any and all sins (especially intentional sins which had no atonement).

bling · Jan 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
This is a good question, I think.

I am of the belief that John Duns Scotus (and the Franciscans) have it right when they say: "Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity; Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God." ~ https://cac.org/incarnation-instead-of-atonement-2016-02-12/

Right, we need to see God as our Loving Father lovingly justly disciplining us for all the benefit that come with being disciplined.

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2019

bling said:
Right, we need to see God as our Loving Father.

I agree to this point.

eleos1954 · Jan 4, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.

Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.

So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.

. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.

Nu.29:11 speaks of this.

Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.

Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.

Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.

This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.

You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.

Leviticus 16:30

For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

On the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Leviticus 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Leviticus 16:8).

***

These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis. One typified our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who was slain as our substitute and vicariously bore our sins, with all the guilt and punishment entailed. Thus He made complete atonement for our sins.

The other goat, seems to be for satan, who is eventually to have responsibility not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.

Two important points involved are to be particularly noted: (1) that the transaction with the live goat (or Azazel) took place after the atonement for the sins of the people had been accomplished, and the reconciliation completed; and (2) that the live goat was not
slain, and did not provide any propitiation or make any vicarious atonement.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Hebrews 9:22). None of the blood of the live goat was shed, or poured out in propitiation, and none was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the Lord, or placed on the horns of the altar.

Satan makes no atonement for our sins. But Satan (has a short time) and will ultimately have to bear the retributive punishment for his responsibility in the sins of all men, both righteous and wicked.

Perhaps it symbolizes that satan (the scapegoat) is still is able to operate in the world from a wilderness realm (having a short time), so in a sense he is still let go ... but ultimately will be destroyed completely when Gods plan is fully complete.

Not sure ... but it is clear one was for the Lord and slain .... and the other one was not for the Lord and was not slain. So it makes sense the one not slain is for an opposite purpose ... and the opposite of God is satan.

The scapegoat lived for a short time, however was eventually destroyed.

It's my understanding the scapegoat was followed and eventually pushed off a cliff and made sure it was ultimately destroyed.

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2019

eleos1954 said:
The other goat, seems to be for satan, who is eventually to have responsibility not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.

Leviticus 16:10 ~ "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2019

Jesus suffered for our sin. I don't see ANYWHERE in the Bible where it's stated that Satan will (in the future) be punished for sin. It's already been "taken away" as stated in Scripture:

1 Peter 3:18 ~ Christ suffered for our sins once for all time [there's no mention of Satan being punished for what Christ has already suffered]*. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:24 ~ He Himself bore our sins [like the living goat]* in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. “By His stripes you are healed.”

** Bracketed words my own, in case that's not clear.

eleos1954 · Jan 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Leviticus 16:10 ~ "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

yeah I know .... Christ is the way to receive atonement, His sacrifice made at-one-ment with God possible, however not everybody will receive it, because not everyone will believe in Christ, some will fall away etc.

The scapegoat bore in its flesh not the penalty for sin, but the responsibility for sin. The protracted death of the scapegoat represents the lingering death that Lucifer will suffer at the end of time. As a predator, he has caused an incalculable amount of sorrow, suffering, pain, and death and he must pay for his actions.

All of the suffering associated with the sins that were transferred to the temple will end up on Lucifer’s head! When Lucifer’s suffering finally ends in the lake of fire, God’s justice will be satisfied and atonement for what he has done will be fully complete for eternity.

eleos1954 · Jan 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Jesus suffered for our sin. I don't see ANYWHERE in the Bible where it's stated that Satan will (in the future) be punished for sin. It's already been "taken away" as stated in Scripture:

1 Peter 3:18 ~ Christ suffered for our sins once for all time [there's no mention of Satan being punished for what Christ has already suffered]*. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:24 ~ He Himself bore our sins [like the living goat]* in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. “By His stripes you are healed.”

** Bracketed words my own, in case that's not clear.

Satan and his minions will be thrown into the lake of fire and punished/destroyed ... along with the unsaved, it hasn't happened yet.

Pneuma3 · Jan 5, 2019

bling said:
OK, but it is only used twice, only by John and only concerning Christ’s atoning sacrifice, so it is hard to be sure of the exact definition.

What you need to show is how the sin offerings on Yom Kipper were propitiation of God’s wrath?

I don't do everyone's work for them, I gave enough info in my OP for people to look these things up.
However when time allows I will show where propitiation is used more then once in scripture.

bling said:
If they “ignored” sins they were aware of making why would they even care about participating in Yom Kipper and with that kind of intentional sinful heart would God allow them to participate?

They did not participate in Yom Kipper, no work was to be done.

bling said:
No, it would mean: they did not know the Law will enough to know they had sinned (ignored God’s law or ignorance of God’s Law). It might be called an error on their part, but ignorance of the Law is no excuse even in todays court.

What Christ did was: “once and for all”, but it was not done just to stop the Yom Kipper sacrifices.

Can we agree, there seems to be three types or even degrees of sin addressed in the Old Testament:

The first group of sins are unintentional sins (mistakes done hastily) and there was an atonement process in Lev. 5 which explains how these could be atoned for and forgiven by God.

The second group were more planed out, intentional sins directly against God, yet could seemingly be “minor”, but are hugely significant like intentionally picking up sticks for a fire on the Sabbath. These sins had no atonement process and were to be dealt with swiftly and without mercy resulting in banishment or death. (These sins everyone was committing and mature adults still commit today, so we are all deserving of severe punishment).

The third group of sins were done in ignorance (for whatever reason) and unlike the unintentional sins which the sinner became aware of later (Lev. 5 but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed), these sins they still seem ignorant of.

These sins of ignorance where atoned for with the Yom Kipper sacrifice.

Jesus’ sacrifice does not just replace the Yom Kipper sacrificing, but is the atonement sacrifice of any and all sins (especially intentional sins which had no atonement).

The rest of your post is simply you misunderstanding my posts because I never said anything about Jesus replacing Yom Kipper.

Pneuma3 · Jan 5, 2019

eleos1954 said:
On the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Leviticus 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Leviticus 16:8).

***

These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis. One typified our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who was slain as our substitute and vicariously bore our sins, with all the guilt and punishment entailed. Thus He made complete atonement for our sins.

The other goat, seems to be for satan, who is eventually to have responsibility not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.

Two important points involved are to be particularly noted: (1) that the transaction with the live goat (or Azazel) took place after the atonement for the sins of the people had been accomplished, and the reconciliation completed; and (2) that the live goat was not
slain, and did not provide any propitiation or make any vicarious atonement.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Hebrews 9:22). None of the blood of the live goat was shed, or poured out in propitiation, and none was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the Lord, or placed on the horns of the altar.

Satan makes no atonement for our sins. But Satan (has a short time) and will ultimately have to bear the retributive punishment for his responsibility in the sins of all men, both righteous and wicked.

Perhaps it symbolizes that satan (the scapegoat) is still is able to operate in the world from a wilderness realm (having a short time), so in a sense he is still let go ... but ultimately will be destroyed completely when Gods plan is fully complete.

Not sure ... but it is clear one was for the Lord and slain .... and the other one was not for the Lord and was not slain. So it makes sense the one not slain is for an opposite purpose ... and the opposite of God is satan.

The scapegoat lived for a short time, however was eventually destroyed.

It's my understanding the scapegoat was followed and eventually pushed off a cliff and made sure it was ultimately destroyed.

mkgal1 said:
Leviticus 16:10 ~ "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

eleos1954 said:
yeah I know .... Christ is the way to receive atonement, His sacrifice made at-one-ment with God possible, however not everybody will receive it, because not everyone will believe in Christ, some will fall away etc.

The scapegoat bore in its flesh not the penalty for sin, but the responsibility for sin. The protracted death of the scapegoat represents the lingering death that Lucifer will suffer at the end of time. As a predator, he has caused an incalculable amount of sorrow, suffering, pain, and death and he must pay for his actions.

All of the suffering associated with the sins that were transferred to the temple will end up on Lucifer’s head! When Lucifer’s suffering finally ends in the lake of fire, God’s justice will be satisfied and atonement for what he has done will be fully complete for eternity.

You simply missed the point. the scapegoat was for ATONEMENT.

eleos1954 · Jan 5, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
You simply missed the point. the scapegoat was for ATONEMENT.

and there are these points:

Hebrews 8

22 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make an atonement for your souls upon the altar, since it is the lifeblood that makes atonement.

The scapegoats blood was not shed.

Leviticus 16:20, 21 And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat.

The scapegoat (live goat) was brought AFTER the atoning (slain goat).

Leviticus 16:20, 21 And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.”

Note: It is shown that Satan is the responsible agent in sin. The scapegoat, which represents Satan, in no way bears, or pays for, our sins. Only Christ [1 John 1:7] bears the penalty for sin [Isaiah 53]. That's why Lord's goat was slain. Jesus alone "taketh away the sin of the world" [John 1:29]. Scapegoat comes after END of atoning for the people by the blood of the Lord's goat. This service simply shows that Satan is the final responsible agent in sin. He is charged with the sins that he lead the redeemed to commit.

Scapegoat contaminates
Leviticus 16:26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp”

Note: Another reason why the Scapegoat cannot represent Christ is because it contaminated people who came into contact with it. Surely, this can’t be a symbol Christ (John 1:29).

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Not sure ... but it is clear one was for the Lord and slain .... and the other one was not for the Lord and was not slain. So it makes sense the one not slain is for an opposite purpose ... and the opposite of God is satan.

The biblical text states that BOTH goats are an offering to the LORD.

You're right about them representing opposite meaning, though (but seem to be off in what oppostites are the focus). The way you're understanding it, our sins are yet to be forgiven (because you are placing part of the ritual off in the future). Jesus already stated, "It is finished".

As I posted earlier, I think Rev 5:6 sheds more light on the paradox of the two goats. What is in opposition is death and life. Jesus' death overcame death. He was victorious over death. He was both the lamb that was slain AND the one that carried our sin (and continued to LIVE).

It is finished. Your sin is atoned for.

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Note: It is shown that Satan is the responsible agent in sin. The scapegoat, which represents Satan, in no way bears, or pays for, our sins. Only Christ [1 John 1:7] bears the penalty for sin [Isaiah 53]. That's why Lord's goat was slain. Jesus alone "taketh away the sin of the world" [John 1:29]. Scapegoat comes after END of atoning for the people by the blood of the Lord's goat. This service simply shows that Satan is the final responsible agent in sin. He is charged with the sins that he lead the redeemed to commit.

You're saying the scapegoat represents Satan - that he will be killed later for ALL sin.... because he is the "responsible agent in sin". That would then mean we were always innocent (bore no responsibility for sin) - and Jesus then died for the sake of Satan.

eleos1954 · Jan 5, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The biblical text states that BOTH goats are an offering to the LORD.

You're right about them representing opposite meaning, though (but seem to be off in what oppostites are the focus). The way you're understanding it, our sins are yet to be forgiven (because you are placing part of the ritual off in the future). Jesus already stated, "It is finished". As I posted earlier, I think Rev 5:6 sheds more light on the paradox of the two goats. What is in opposition is death and life. Jesus death overcame death. He was victorious over death. He was both the lamb that was slain AND the one that carried our sin (and continued to LIVE).

Sin is not totally eradicated until it is totally destroyed. One who accepts Jesus as their savior and remain in Him, yes their sins are atoned for ... however those who have not received Jesus' atonement ... they have to be dealt with (you keep excluding these people) ... and satan is ultimately responsible for bringing sin about in the first place.

It is finished. Your sin is atoned for.

"It is finished. Your sin is atoned for." Yes, for believers ... not for unbelievers.

There are more believers yet to come ... until the Lord comes back.

If they (both goats) were representing Christ ... then why are Lots cast upon the two goats? One lot is for the “Lord’s” goat (without blemish) and the other is for “Azazel” [the scapegoat] (imperfect).

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2019

The Levitical rituals fell short of Jesus' perfect sacrifice. Sin was only "covered" in the Yom Kippur ritual - it was "taken away" in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Scapegoat

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