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SBC, Jimmy Carter & homosexuality

OzSpen

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Former USA president, Jimmy Carter, Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher at Maranatha Baptist Church, Plains GA, has stated:
"I never knew of any word or action of Jesus Christ that discriminated against anyone," he said in a video posted on mlive.com.
His remarks came in response to a question about human rights and the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community at an event at Grand Rapids Community College, as part of their diversity lecture series.
"The sexual orientation of a person is just like the colour of their skin, or whether [...] they are poor or rich," Carter said....
"I'm a Baptist, and I believe that each congregation is autonomous and can govern its own affairs. So if a local Baptist church wants to accept gay members on an equal basis, which my church does by the way, then that is fine. If a church decides not to, then government laws shouldn't require them to," he said ('President Jimmy Carter stands up for LGBT rights: "Jesus didn't discriminate against anyone"', Christian Today, 25 Sept 14). Parts of this also was reported in the Huffington Post (24 Sept 14).

Here Carter is stating his open view on homosexuality and he says his Baptist Church (which is an SBC church) does 'accept gay members on an equal basic, which my church does'. Carter, an SBC Baptist Sunday School teacher, has been advocating this kind of position on homosexuality for a while.

My question is: Why is Maranatha Baptist Church still a member of the SBC while New Heart Community Church, La Mirada CA, an SBC congregation, has been disfellowshiped over its views on homosexuality? (Baptist Press, 23 Sept 14)?

As for Carter's statement that Jesus did not discriminate against anyone, hasn't he ever read verses such as Matt 16:1-4?

Oz
 

1watchman

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There are many professing Christians who pay little regard to holiness, and see godliness as ONLY showing love. The Bible actually teaches a faithful Christian will love ALL souls, but hate sinfulness. We need to take "all the counsel of God".

As a believer I need to love all souls, but I could not fellowship in a church gathering (or any place) where sinful souls who continue their disregard for the honor and glory of God, and neglect His Word, are abiding.
 
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OzSpen

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There are many professing Christians who pay little regard to holiness, and see godliness as ONLY showing love. The Bible actually teaches a faithful Christian will love ALL souls, but hate sinfulness. We need to take "all the counsel of God".

As a believer I need to love all souls, but I could not fellowship in a church gathering (or any place) where sinful souls who continue their disregard for the honor and glory of God, and neglect His Word, are abiding.

My concern was a apparent contradiction on the homosexuality issue between an SBC church in CA (disfellowshipped) and an SBC church in Georgia where Jimmy Carter attends. One is excommunicated and the other is allowed to continue on, in spite of Jimmy Carter's apparent support for a non-biblical view of homosexuality.

Any thoughts?
 
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LinkH

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Responding just to the OP, if Jimmy Carter isn't the pastor, he's just stating his opinion. Maybe his definition of 'gay' is different form the SBC. Someone who struggles with same-sex attraction could probably join an SBC if he didn't act on it or encourage others to do so.
 
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OzSpen

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Responding just to the OP, if Jimmy Carter isn't the pastor, he's just stating his opinion. Maybe his definition of 'gay' is different form the SBC. Someone who struggles with same-sex attraction could probably join an SBC if he didn't act on it or encourage others to do so.

It was Carter, a Sunday School teacher at an SBC church, who stated 'So if a local Baptist church wants to accept gay members on an equal basis, which my church does by the way'.

I believe all people of whatever sexual attraction should be loved by the church but I was particularly referring to his statement of 'gay members'. Perhaps Carter was referring to what we Down Under would call 'gay adherents' of a church, i.e. they attend a local church but have not joined the church as members.

What is your understanding of 'gay members'? Does that mean membership in your church?
 
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Bluelion

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It was Carter, a Sunday School teacher at an SBC church, who stated 'So if a local Baptist church wants to accept gay members on an equal basis, which my church does by the way'.

I believe all people of whatever sexual attraction should be loved by the church but I was particularly referring to his statement of 'gay members'. Perhaps Carter was referring to what we Down Under would call 'gay adherents' of a church, i.e. they attend a local church but have not joined the church as members.

What is your understanding of 'gay members'? Does that mean membership in your church?

do you have members which have sex before marriage, who are adulterers? Yes. So why do you single out gays. Hey if you say no gays you must say No sexual immorality period. So you must preach out against all of it not one sec other wise your a hypocrite. How many "member " have sex out of wed lock? Also how many get divorced not for adultery? You want to hold one group to the law and not others? and if you do there would be no one left in church.

So I think you can have fellowship with them, but if they sin in front of you, you need to say something or leave them. I don't think they are doing it in the church? Yes they need to know its a sin and it should not be taught other wise, but no we should not judge and condemn them. Image if Jesus did that, look at how discussing of sinners we are to Jesus, yet he walked among us, He ate with the sinners, slept next to them. I say follow Jesus not man.

I think carter was trying to express a Truth.

We need to love more and judge less. God gave us judgement we say this is true, so why reject people on that bases did God any where say to reject sinners? Did God reject sinners? No we should not say it is ok, and yes they should struggle with it to over come, and do there best to re-frame. I don't know about you but I just can't reject some one because they sin, because i have not been rejected because i sin.
 
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OzSpen

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do you have members which have sex before marriage, who are adulterers? Yes. So why do you single out gays. Hey if you say no gays you must say No sexual immorality period. So you must preach out against all of it not one sec other wise your a hypocrite. How many "member " have sex out of wed lock? Also how many get divorced not for adultery? You want to hold one group to the law and not others? and if you do there would be no one left in church.

So I think you can have fellowship with them, but if they sin in front of you, you need to say something or leave them. I don't think they are doing it in the church? Yes they need to know its a sin and it should not be taught other wise, but no we should not judge and condemn them. Image if Jesus did that, look at how discussing of sinners we are to Jesus, yet he walked among us, He ate with the sinners, slept next to them. I say follow Jesus not man.

I think carter was trying to express a Truth.

We need to love more and judge less. God gave us judgement we say this is true, so why reject people on that bases did God any where say to reject sinners? Did God reject sinners? No we should not say it is ok, and yes they should struggle with it to over come, and do there best to re-frame. I don't know about you but I just can't reject some one because they sin, because i have not been rejected because i sin.

Why have you missed the emphasis of my OP and of further explanations? I'm not addressing sin in the camp. I'm addressing the apparent inconsistency of the SBC with a church in La Mirada, CA and one in Plains, GA over the issue of homosexuality.
 
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miamited

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Hi ozpen,

I find that the Scriptures, in teaching on the subject of same sex relations, is always condemning. I also find that the Scriptures pronounce woes on those who call good evil and evil good. Man is always going to be imperfect this side of the eternal and we are not asked to believe what a man says. It is mentioned that even Jesus held the words of men of little regard, for he knew what was in their hearts.

As born again believers we must understand these things and strive to individually work within the framework of the world. That's the truth! Our job is to strive to make ourselves, individually holy and pure before God; teach the truth; and live our lives as Peter encouraged us.

As for why the SBC chose to handle each fellowship in the way that it did, you'd have to ask someone on that committee. But, I think it fairly obvious that man is not always equal in how it handles very similar situations. Once one becomes a person of power and position in the world, part of that is that they often get special and preferential treatment that is better than the rest of us get. It's just another part of the imperfectness of man.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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DeaconDean

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do you have members which have sex before marriage, who are adulterers? Yes.

No, they are "fornicaters".

So why do you single out gays. Hey if you say no gays you must say No sexual immorality period. So you must preach out against all of it not one sec other wise your a hypocrite. How many "member " have sex out of wed lock? Also how many get divorced not for adultery? You want to hold one group to the law and not others? and if you do there would be no one left in church.

Fact is, the scriptures allow divorce on grounds other than "adultry".

Paul said that if the unbeliving wife (or husband) leaves, then they are not bound. That is abondonment. (cf. 1 Cor. 7:15)

Fact is also, that if a "church" puts people in positions of leadership who are not qualified by scriptures, then it is nothing more than a "social club".

It would be wrong to admit into fellowship/membership people who openly practice homosexuality, but it never forbids them from attending. I'd personally rather have a "gay" person attend church, hear what isd being preached, and let the Holy Spirit do His "perfect work", rather than condemn them or admit them as members.

So I think you can have fellowship with them, but if they sin in front of you, you need to say something or leave them. I don't think they are doing it in the church? Yes they need to know its a sin and it should not be taught other wise, but no we should not judge and condemn them. Image if Jesus did that, look at how discussing of sinners we are to Jesus, yet he walked among us, He ate with the sinners, slept next to them. I say follow Jesus not man.

I think carter was trying to express a Truth.

We need to love more and judge less. God gave us judgement we say this is true, so why reject people on that bases did God any where say to reject sinners? Did God reject sinners? No we should not say it is ok, and yes they should struggle with it to over come, and do there best to re-frame. I don't know about you but I just can't reject some one because they sin, because i have not been rejected because i sin.

I want you to do me a favor. Go back and research the issues the SBC was having around the "Baptist Faith and Message of 2000".

See the battlelines, and exactly what they were about when the BF&M of 2000 was issued.

Fact is, the Moderates were condemning the Conservatives because the Conservatives were not accepting openly gay people to join and serve as Sunday school teachers, deacons, pastors. And because the SBC wanted to go back to a scriptural standpoint on the role of the wife.

What did Isaiah say about those who call evil good and good evil? (cf. Isa. 5:20)

I have no problem with gay people attedning church. But I absolutely refuse to let a woman in the pulpit, and I absolutely refuse to let homosexuals serve as teachers, deacons, or elders!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Hammster

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My concern was a apparent contradiction on the homosexuality issue between an SBC church in CA (disfellowshipped) and an SBC church in Georgia where Jimmy Carter attends. One is excommunicated and the other is allowed to continue on, in spite of Jimmy Carter's apparent support for a non-biblical view of homosexuality.

Any thoughts?

It's an internal church issue. Carter isn't the pastor making a declaration of the direction of the congregation. The pastor in CA did just that.
 
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OzSpen

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It's an internal church issue. Carter isn't the pastor making a declaration of the direction of the congregation. The pastor in CA did just that.

But Carter seems to be affirming homosexual relationships and is reported to have said, 'If a local Baptist church wants to accept gay members on an equal basis, which my church does by the way, then that is fine'.

Oz
 
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Hammster

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But Carter seems to be affirming homosexual relationships and is reported to have said, 'If a local Baptist church wants to accept gay members on an equal basis, which my church does by the way, then that is fine'.

Oz

Maybe something has changed, but I heard a few years ago that he left the SBC after the latest revision to the BF&M.
 
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miamited

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Fact is, the scriptures allow divorce on grounds other than "adultry".

Paul said that if the unbeliving wife (or husband) leaves, then they are not bound. That is abondonment. (cf. 1 Cor. 7:15)

Hi DD,

That piece probably needs some clarification.

First, Paul wrote that the 'unbelieving' spouse may leave. That's true and has always been true. Unbelievers may do whatever seems right to them. However, if we back up just a bit, that is not the instruction given to the believer. The believer must remain as he was when he came to believe and marriage is one of the very issues mentioned.

Secondly, I think it disingenuous to 'translate' that piece of Scripture as 'allows', and it absolutely doesn't make any claim that they are then 'unbound' to their vow. It doesn't give any 'allowance' to the believer in this issue. All it says is that the believer should let them leave. It also doesn't give any instruction as to the believers ability to later remarry. It merely states that within a marriage, if an unbeliever chooses to leave the marriage, then the believer should let them leave.

As far as the believer's responsibility, as far as I can tell, he should choose to uphold his end of the marriage vows and if he finds himself in the position where his marriage is made void by the actions of the unbelieving spouse, the believer should remain unmarried. For even though the unbeliever may choose to break their marriage vows, there is no example given that the unbeliever can break their marriage vow.

In other words, if the unbeliever wants to break their promise before God, which they probably don't see it as that, the believer is still bound by his promise. The unbeliever, since they are unbelievers, didn't make their marriage a vow to God, they are unbelievers! They only made a vow to their spouse which they are now choosing to break. The only way a marriage vow is broken, and leaving a believing spouse to remarry, is by death, according to the Scriptures.

Just wanted to throw that in there in case some might get the idea that if their spouse leaves them that they are then free to remarry. Unfortunately, that is never mentioned as a possibility in the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Bluelion

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Why have you missed the emphasis of my OP and of further explanations? I'm not addressing sin in the camp. I'm addressing the apparent inconsistency of the SBC with a church in La Mirada, CA and one in Plains, GA over the issue of homosexuality.

even in southern baptist church the teaching vary. I think you'll find every baptist church does things there own way. not saying i agree but its true.
 
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DeaconDean

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Hi DD,

That piece probably needs some clarification.

First, Paul wrote that the 'unbelieving' spouse may leave. That's true and has always been true. Unbelievers may do whatever seems right to them. However, if we back up just a bit, that is not the instruction given to the believer. The believer must remain as he was when he came to believe and marriage is one of the very issues mentioned.

John Gill comments:

a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases.

The Ethiopic version reads it, "to such an one"; one that is called by grace a church member, and so a brother or sister in Christ, is not to be subject to an unbeliever in matters of conscience, in things appertaining to the worship of God, and the service and glory of Christ; nor, being in such circumstances, that either Christ must be forsaken, or the unbeliever will depart, are they obliged to yield to such an one, but rather suffer a departure; nor are they bound to remain unmarried, but are free to marry another person, after all proper methods have been tried for a reconciliation, and that appears to be impracticable; desertion in such a case, and attended with such circumstances, is a breach of the marriage contract, and a dissolution of the bond, and the deserted person may lawfully marry again; otherwise a brother, or a sister in such a case, would be in subjection and bondage to such a person:

Source

Sorry, but your wrong.

Secondly, I think it disingenuous to 'translate' that piece of Scripture as 'allows', and it absolutely doesn't make any claim that they are then 'unbound' to their vow. It doesn't give any 'allowance' to the believer in this issue. All it says is that the believer should let them leave. It also doesn't give any instruction as to the believers ability to later remarry. It merely states that within a marriage, if an unbeliever chooses to leave the marriage, then the believer should let them leave.

Sorry, but your wrong. (See above)

As far as the believer's responsibility, as far as I can tell, he should choose to uphold his end of the marriage vows and if he finds himself in the position where his marriage is made void by the actions of the unbelieving spouse, the believer should remain unmarried. For even though the unbeliever may choose to break their marriage vows, there is no example given that the unbeliever can break their marriage vow.

And the believing did. They did not depart, the unbelieving did, and they (the beliving, are not bound to uphold the bond) as shown above.

In other words, if the unbeliever wants to break their promise before God, which they probably don't see it as that, the believer is still bound by his promise. The unbeliever, since they are unbelievers, didn't make their marriage a vow to God, they are unbelievers! They only made a vow to their spouse which they are now choosing to break. The only way a marriage vow is broken, and leaving a believing spouse to remarry, is by death, according to the Scriptures.

Just wanted to throw that in there in case some might get the idea that if their spouse leaves them that they are then free to remarry. Unfortunately, that is never mentioned as a possibility in the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

And how do you explain that by God's own words, He divorced Israel and her sister Judah?

"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." -Jer. 3:8 (KJV)

John Gill comments:

And I saw, when for all the causes, whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery

Not only Judah saw, but God, who sees all things, saw the idolatry of the ten tribes which apostatized from him, and all the springs, causes, reasons, and occasions of it, and its consequences; and also the treachery, hardness, and idolatry of Judah: I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;
as men did, when they put away their wives, as they might lawfully do in case of adultery; and here being that which answered to it, spiritual adultery or idolatry, the Lord, who was married to this people, put them away from him, and caused them to be carried captive out of their own land into another, ( 2 Kings 17:6 ) which is meant by the bill of divorce; so the Targum,

``I caused them to go into captivity, as those that give a bill of divorce (to their wives) and dismiss them:''

Source

We cannot be held to a higher standard than that of what God Himself said or did.

Sorry.

The Old and New Testaments allow divorce, although it is always to be as a last resort, it does "allow" it.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Fact is, the scriptures allow divorce on grounds other than "adultry".

Paul said that if the unbeliving wife (or husband) leaves, then they are not bound. That is abondonment. (cf. 1 Cor. 7:15)

1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

1 Cor. 7:15. Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such {cases,} but God has called us to peace.

Paul’s teaching on divorce and remarriage was, of course, the same as that of Jesus in the undisputed passages where Jesus teaches on the subject:

Like 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”

Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”

Remarriage (to a different spouse) after a divorce is forbidden by Jesus because the man or woman divorcing a spouse is still married to the original spouse—and nothing can change that until either the man or the woman dies:

Rom. 7:3. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Both of the two teachings on divorce and remarriage in Matthew (5:31-32, 19:3-12) and Paul’s teaching at 1 Cor. 7:15 must be interpreted in harmony with the expressly clear passages. Most certainly, “the Pauline privilege” (as it is called), is not a license to commit adultery!

Matt. 5:31. "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';
32, but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for {the} reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

In verse 32, Jesus is clearly teaching that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery (if she is already an adulteress, he does not make her one by divorcing her). Moreover, permission to remarry is NOT granted here (or elsewhere) to either the man or the woman!

When we read the discussion in the Matt. 19:3-12, however, we run into a problem:

Matt. 19:3. Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
7. They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8. He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
11. But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
12. “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

In Matt. 19:3-12, we find a group of Pharisees attempting to trap Jesus into taking sides in a theological debate and stir up strife by asking Jesus to take a side in the Hillel-Shammai dispute that was raging at the time. The very popular and theologically liberal Rabbi Hillel taught that it was lawful for a Jewish man to divorce his wife for any cause whatsoever; the far less popular and theologically conservative Rabbi Shammai taught that it was lawful for a Jewish man to divorce his wife only if she had committed adultery against him. The Pharisees knew that Jesus was very conservative in His theology and they believed that He would most likely take the side of Rabbi Shammai, and consequently become, along with Rabbi Shammai, far less popular with the people.

If the exception clause in Matt. 19:9 is genuine scripture rather than a very early addition to the original text, we have Jesus falling right into the trap set for Him by the Pharisees and taking the side of Rabbi Shammai. In my opinion, Jesus was not so foolish as to fall into such a trap and that He replied to them,

9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.”

That this was His actual reply is confirmed by the reaction of His disciples,

10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”

This was not the reaction of the Jews to the teaching of Rabbi Shammai, so we can be quite certain that Jesus taught very differently, and did not include in His answer the exception for adultery that Rabbi Shammai included in his teaching. And, in His teaching elsewhere, Jesus is not quoted as including the exception for adultery having been committed.

The exception clause in Matt. 19:9 has a very large amount of early manuscript support (although with a number of variations); therefore, most New Testament translators translate from a Greek text that includes the exception clause. However, very many scholars of the synoptic gospels believe that the exception clause could not have been a part of the teaching of Jesus because it directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus, not only as found in Mark, Luke, and Paul, but also in the rest of Matthew. Indeed, if the exception clause is genuine, Matt. 19:9 cannot be harmonized with Matt. 19:8,

8. He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Whenever Jesus introduces his teaching with the words, “I say to you” (there are more than 50 occurrences in Matthew’s Gospel alone), He is introducing a new teaching that goes beyond the commonly accepted rabbinic teachings of his day. If the exception clause is genuine, in verse 9 Jesus is not introducing a new teaching; He is falling into the Pharisees’ trap by taking Shammai’s side in the debate! Therefore, the verse should read,

9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Compare Luke 16:18,

18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”

And not only that, if the exception clause is genuine, in verse 9 Jesus is contradicting what he had just said in verses 4-6.

4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

This three-word exception clause has given birth to countless thousands of theological and legal debates, but it is probably a very early addition (before the oldest known manuscripts of Mathew’s gospel were written) made to the gospel that does not belong there. It may have resulted from a scribe reading a similar phrase earlier in Matthew’s gospel (chapter 5) and believing that it also belonged in Matt. 19:9,

Matt. 5:31. “It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';
32. but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

We find the exception clause here in verse 32, but notice again why it is included here—if a man divorces his wife he makes her an adulteress except for the cases where she already is one.

How many pastors today would dare to preach from the pulpit that remarriage (after divorce) to a different spouse is forbidden by Christ Jesus Himself because all second marriages are an adulterous relationship as long as the first spouse is still alive. When His own disciples heard Him teach it, they were so upset that they complained, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry”—a complaint that Jesus let stand! Marriage is not a human aright—it is a privilege with strict rules attached to it. People who do not like the rules should not get married.

Our Baptist churches are largely autonomous—even in the SBC, and the SBC is not heavy-handed but increasingly tolerant—even on the subject of homosexuality. Certainly some of the individual churches in the SBC have more pull with the denomination than others—and having a member who is an outspoken former President of the United States contributes to that pull. Jimmy Carter is an advocate for what he believes to be human rights, and a rapidly growing number of Christians—including Baptists—have adopted that position. In that framework, the SBC can hardly dare to take a stand against homosexuality.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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John Gill comments:

Who is our authority regarding divorce and remarriage—John Gill or the Lord Christ Jesus?

And how do you explain that by God's own words, He divorced Israel and her sister Judah?

God did NOT marry Israel and Judah—and they NEVER became one flesh!
 
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miamited

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Hi DD,

I must agree with PG in this. As far as earthly marriages among men and women, the Scriptures are quite clear in many places that, for the believer, it is to be an unbreakable vow that is made to God and one's spouse. Just as Jesus told Israel, that what had now become 'acceptable' in the eyes of men regarding divorce, was not what God intended in the beginning. While I do appreciate your posting John Gill's comments on the subject, I also must ask: Who is a believer to believe? What certainty can you offer that John Gill has properly divided the word here? Because honestly, it doesn't match with many of the instructions of the Scriptures.

Now, many like to take assurance from teachers who have a say on this subject because many of us, yes, I am included in that number, have been divorced and remarried. However, I'm a man who is more inclined to say that God's word is true and I am a sinner. God has made it clear that He hates divorce. So, I believe, the natural and true understanding of that passage would be that God hates divorce and while He can certainly love someone who has sinned in this, just as He loves other sinners, He hates divorce. I honestly find it hard to comprehend that God approves of people doing what He hates, but I know that God offers salvation to every sinner. This is just another reason for me to be very, very forgiving of others. I know that I am asking for a very, very great forgiveness for my own sin. I believe that God is going to forgive me my sin, just as I have forgiven those whom I must forgive.

As I understand the Scriptures, a marriage in which one party is a believer, for that one there is no escape from their vow. They are to love their spouse until death. Whether there comes an issue of adultery, sadly even violence, there is no righteous escape from their vow. Unfortunately, many broken believer marriages become so because the believer made themselves unequally yoked. We fall in love and marry people who make us happy and satisfied in the moment and give such very, very little weight to whether or not that person is a born again believer. And no, I don't mean 'goes to church'. I have learned, though late in life, that the very first issue of most importance when choosing a spouse is whether or not they also love God. Of course, I didn't come to love God myself until late in life so I have left behind a swath of carnage which is only to be expected of one who doesn't love God.

I believe that the reason that the road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, is exactly because it isn't the easy road on which one can travel through this life. No! The easier road is the one that says, "Oh, God's OK with whatever you do or have done and you don't need any forgiveness for those things." I, on the other hand, would never teach anyone that it is OK in God's sight to divorce their spouse. However, will God forgive them that sin? Oh, most certainly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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DeaconDean

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Hi DD,

I must agree with PG in this. As far as earthly marriages among men and women, the Scriptures are quite clear in many places that, for the believer, it is to be an unbreakable vow that is made to God and one's spouse. Just as Jesus told Israel, that what had now become 'acceptable' in the eyes of men regarding divorce, was not what God intended in the beginning. While I do appreciate your posting John Gill's comments on the subject, I also must ask: Who is a believer to believe? What certainty can you offer that John Gill has properly divided the word here? Because honestly, it doesn't match with many of the instructions of the Scriptures.

Now, many like to take assurance from teachers who have a say on this subject because many of us, yes, I am included in that number, have been divorced and remarried. However, I'm a man who is more inclined to say that God's word is true and I am a sinner. God has made it clear that He hates divorce. So, I believe, the natural and true understanding of that passage would be that God hates divorce and while He can certainly love someone who has sinned in this, just as He loves other sinners, He hates divorce. I honestly find it hard to comprehend that God approves of people doing what He hates, but I know that God offers salvation to every sinner. This is just another reason for me to be very, very forgiving of others. I know that I am asking for a very, very great forgiveness for my own sin. I believe that God is going to forgive me my sin, just as I have forgiven those whom I must forgive.

As I understand the Scriptures, a marriage in which one party is a believer, for that one there is no escape from their vow. They are to love their spouse until death. Whether there comes an issue of adultery, sadly even violence, there is no righteous escape from their vow. Unfortunately, many broken believer marriages become so because the believer made themselves unequally yoked. We fall in love and marry people who make us happy and satisfied in the moment and give such very, very little weight to whether or not that person is a born again believer. And no, I don't mean 'goes to church'. I have learned, though late in life, that the very first issue of most importance when choosing a spouse is whether or not they also love God. Of course, I didn't come to love God myself until late in life so I have left behind a swath of carnage which is only to be expected of one who doesn't love God.

I believe that the reason that the road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, is exactly because it isn't the easy road on which one can travel through this life. No! The easier road is the one that says, "Oh, God's OK with whatever you do or have done and you don't need any forgiveness for those things." I, on the other hand, would never teach anyone that it is OK in God's sight to divorce their spouse. However, will God forgive them that sin? Oh, most certainly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Everyone has their opinion.

I have given mine and provided support for it from scriptures and commentary.

You on the other hand, well...

And it still does not negate the fact that in certain circumstances, according to scripture, the believer is allowed to divorce and remarry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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If this is true,

And it still does not negate the fact that in certain circumstances, according to scripture, the believer is allowed to divorce and remarry.

this can NOT be true,

Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
 
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