Saying goodbye to the UMC

[Rawtheran]

Sadly I have decided to move on from the UMC and seek another denomination elsewhere as I feel the bureaucracy and false doctrine have taken the place of what was once a great spirit led movement. God bless you all and I wish the Methodists all the best.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Sadly I have decided to move on from the UMC and seek another denomination elsewhere as I feel the bureaucracy and false doctrine have taken the place of what was once a great spirit led movement. God bless you all and I wish the Methodists all the best.

Just what false doctrines do you believe have been adopted by the UMC?

 

[Rawtheran]

Just what false doctrines do you believe have been adopted by the UMC?

Itineracy, The ridiculously long and unnecessary process for becoming ordained, lack of respect for Deacons who are supposed to be of equal status in the denomination, good old boy system instead of a system that is supposed to actively make a difference for Christ, constant pressuring on individual congregations to line up with the agenda of a conference, wasted money, lack of accountability, and now a denominational split over gay marriage which is very much defined as a sin in the Bible. I cannot in good conscious serve a denomination that only cares about its own self interests and not the interests of the common people.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Be dissatisfied if you must, but those things you list are not doctrine. They are practices or current events, not beliefs. If you want to know about doctrine, look to the Book of Discipline.

I left UMC, too, albeit for different reasons. But part of me will always be a Methodist. I hold them in high regard and feel saddened by the UMC's current struggle threatening division. I hope the UMC is able to move forward together.

 

[hedrick]

I hope the UMC is able to move forward together.

This is looking less and less likely. They are considering several alternatives, most of which include a split in the church. The WCA has recently started saying that if the alternative that doesn't involve a split is chosen, they'll pull out.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Hedrick, what is WCA?

 

[hedrick]

Hedrick, what is WCA?

Wesley Covenant Association, the major conservative pressure group.

 

[miggles]

Sadly I have decided to move on from the UMC and seek another denomination elsewhere as I feel the bureaucracy and false doctrine have taken the place of what was once a great spirit led movement. God bless you all and I wish the Methodists all the best.

i hear you. i can't even find a church that respects the lord anymore. so i just don't go.

 

[circuitrider]

If you disagree with the itineracy you just shouldn't be a Methodist in the first place. Its at the heart of how we do ministry since John Wesley formed the first circuit riding system. It is no more or less Biblical than many other systems of church governance.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Itineracy, The ridiculously long and unnecessary process for becoming ordained, lack of respect for Deacons who are supposed to be of equal status in the denomination, good old boy system instead of a system that is supposed to actively make a difference for Christ, constant pressuring on individual congregations to line up with the agenda of a conference, wasted money, lack of accountability, and now a denominational split over gay marriage which is very much defined as a sin in the Bible. I cannot in good conscious serve a denomination that only cares about its own self interests and not the interests of the common people.

I would have put gay bishops at the top of my list as a reason to leave.

11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

 

[circuitrider]

I would have put gay bishops at the top of my list as a reason to leave.

Interesting. I'd have put that at the top of my list of reasons to stay.

 

[miggles]

i think the methodist church was probably the last protestant church to dwindle into rock concert halls and stand up comedians.

 

[miggles]

to give you an example of how churches today are teaching adults and children how to worship the Almighty, this is what's going on in one of the oldest churches in my town today.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[Paidiske]

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[rockytopva]

Wesley's grounds for a Methodist... Which did not include being a member of a denomination!

What is a Methodist? by John Wesley ...

1. We believe, indeed, that "all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God." We believe the written word of God to be the only and sufficient rule both of Christian faith and practice.

2. We do not place our religion, or any part of it, in being attached to any peculiar mode of speaking, any quaint or uncommon set of expressions.

3. Our religion does not lie in doing what God has not enjoined, or abstaining from what he hath not forbidden. It does not lie in the form of our apparel, in the posture of our body, or the covering of our heads; nor yet in abstaining from marriage, or from meats and drinks, which are all good if received with thanksgiving.

4. Nor, lastly, is he distinguished by laying the whole stress of religion on any single part of it

5. "What then is the mark? Who is a Methodist, according to your own account?" I answer: A Methodist is one who has "the love of God shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost given unto him;" one who "loves the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind, and with all his strength. God is the joy of his heart, and the desire of his soul; which is constantly crying out, "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee! My God and my all! Thou art the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever!"

6. He is therefore happy in God, yea, always happy, as having in him "a well of water springing up into everlasting life," and overflowing his soul with peace and joy. "Perfect love" having now "cast out fear," he "rejoices evermore." He "rejoices in the Lord always," even "in God his Saviour;" and in the Father, "through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom he hath now received the atonement." "Having" found "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of his sins," he cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks back on the horrible pit out of which he is delivered; when he sees "all his transgressions blotted out as a cloud, and his iniquities as a thick cloud." He cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks on the state wherein he now is; "being justified freely, and having peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." For "he that believeth, hath the witness" of this "in himself;" being now the son of God by faith. "Because he is a son, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into his heart, crying, Abba, Father!" And "the Spirit itself beareth witness with his spirit, that he is a child of God." He rejoiceth also, whenever he looks forward, "in hope of the glory that shall be revealed;" yea, this his joy is full, and all his bones cry out, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten me again to a living hope -- of an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for me!"

7. And he who hath this hope, thus "full of immortality, in everything giveth thanks;" as knowing that this (whatsoever it is) "is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning him." From him, therefore, he cheerfully receives all, saying, "Good is the will of the Lord;" and whether the Lord giveth or taketh away, equally "blessing the name of the Lord." For he hath "learned, in whatsoever state he is, therewith to be content." He knoweth "both how to be abased and how to abound

8. For indeed he "prays without ceasing." It is given him "always to pray, and not to faint."

9. And while he thus always exercises his love to God, by praying without ceasing, rejoicing evermore, and in everything giving thanks, this commandment is written in his heart, "That he who loveth God, love his brother also." And he accordingly loves his neighbour as himself; he loves every man as his own soul. His heart is full of love to all mankind, to every child of "the Father of the spirits of all flesh

10. For he is "pure in heart." The love of God has purified his heart from all revengeful passions, from envy, malice, and wrath, from every unkind temper or malign affection. It hath cleansed him from pride and haughtiness of spirit, whereof alone cometh contention. And he hath now "put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering:" So that he "forbears and forgives, if he had a quarrel against any; even as God in Christ hath forgiven him." And indeed all possible ground for contention, on his part, is utterly cut off. For none can take from him what he desires; seeing he "loves not the world, nor" any of "the things of the world;" being now "crucified to the world, and the world crucified to him;" being dead to all that is in the world, both to "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life." For "all his desire is unto God, and to the remembrance of his name."

11. Agreeable to this his one desire, is the one design of his life, namely, "not to do his own will, but the will of Him that sent him." His one intention at all times and in all things is, not to please himself, but Him whom his soul loveth. He has a single eye. And because "his eye is single, his whole body is full of light." Indeed, where the loving eye of the soul is continually fixed upon God, there can be no darkness at all, "but the whole is light; as when the bright shining of a candle doth enlighten the house." God then reigns alone. All that is in the soul is holiness to the Lord. There is not a motion in his heart, but is according to his will. Every thought that arises points to Him, and is in obedience to the law of Christ.

12. And the tree is known by its fruits. For as he loves God, so he keeps his commandments; not only some, or most of them, but all, from the least to the greatest. He is not content to "keep the whole law, and offend in one point;" but has, in all points, "a conscience void of offence towards God and towards man."

13. All the commandments of God he accordingly keeps, and that with all his might. For his obedience is in proportion to his love, the source from whence it flows. And therefore, loving God with all his heart, he serves him with all his strength.

14. By consequence, whatsoever he doeth, it is all to the glory of God. His one invariable rule is this, "Whatsoever ye do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

15. Nor do the customs of the world at all hinder his "running the race that is set before him." He knows that vice does not lose its nature, though it becomes ever so fashionable; and remembers, that "every man is to give an account of himself to God." He cannot, therefore, "follow" even "a multitude to do evil." He cannot "fare sumptuously every day," or "make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof." He cannot "lay up treasures upon earth," any more than he can take fire into his bosom. He cannot "adorn himself," on any pretence, "with gold or costly apparel." He cannot join in or countenance any diversion which has the least tendency to vice of any kind. He cannot "speak evil" of his neighbour, any more than he can lie either for God or man. He cannot utter an unkind word of any one; for love keeps the door of his lips. He cannot speak "idle words;" "no corrupt communication" ever "comes out of his mouth," as is all that "which is" not "good to the use of edifying," not "fit to minister grace to the hearers." But "whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are" justly "of good report," he thinks, and speaks, and acts, "adorning the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in all things."

16. Lastly. As he has time, he "does good unto all men;" unto neighbours and strangers, friends and enemies: And that in every possible kind; not only to their bodies, by "feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those that are sick or in prison;" but much more does he labour to do good to their souls, as of the ability which God giveth; to awaken those that sleep in death; to bring those who are awakened to the atoning blood, that, "being justified by faith, they may have peace with God;" and to provoke those who have peace with God to abound more in love and in good works.

17. These are the principles and practices of our sect; these are the marks of a true Methodist. By these alone do those who are in derision so called, desire to be distinguished from other men. If any man say, "Why, these are only the common fundamental principles of Christianity!" thou hast said; so I mean; this is the very truth; I know they are no other; and I would to God both thou and all men knew, that I, and all who follow my judgment, do vehemently refuse to be distinguished from other men, by any but the common principles of Christianity, -- the plain, old Christianity that I teach, renouncing and detesting all other marks of distinction. And having the mind that was in Christ, he so walks as Christ also walked.

 

[rockytopva]

I don't believe John Wesley willed the denomination and the UMC was the offspring of Asbury. Here in a letter to Francis Asbury he chastises Asbury for such activity....

LONDON
September 20, 1788


My Dear Brother:

There is, indeed, a wide difference between the relation wherein you stand to the Americans and the relation wherein I stand to all the Methodists. You are the elder brother of the American Methodists: I am under God the father of the whole family. Therefore I naturally care for you all in a manner no other persons can do. Therefore I in a measure provide for you all; for the supplies which Dr. Coke provides for you, he could not provide were it not for me, were it not that I not only permit him to collect but also support him in so doing.

But in one point, my dear brother, I am a little afraid both the Doctor and you differ from me. I study to be little: you study to be great. I creep; you strut along. I found a school: you a college! [Cokesbury College] nay, and call it after your own names! 0 beware, do not seek to be something! Let me be nothing, and "Christ be all in all!"

One instance of this, of your greatness, has given me great concern. How can you, how dare you suffer yourself to be called Bishop? I shudder, I start at the very thought! Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me Bishop! For my sake, for God's sake, for Christ's sake put a full end to this! Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodists know their calling better.

Thus, my dear Franky, I have told you all that is in my heart. And let this, when I am no more seen, bear witness how sincerely I am Your affectionate friend and brother,

John Wesley

 

[circuitrider]

Wesley's grounds for a Methodist... Which did not include being a member of a denomination!

Sure if you are going to cherry pick quotes from the hundreds of sermons Wesley wrote. But by doing that you ignore the fact that Wesley organized Methodist societies, bands, and classes. He organized circuit riders. He had expectations for Methodists to participate in those groups to be Methodists.

Even the quote you use says, "These are the principles and practices of our sect." Its hard to be a Methodist in any sense that Wesley would have understood it without being part of a body of Methodists. You can call that a denomination, a sect, a society, whatever. It is still an organization of Christians under a specific label.

 

[circuitrider]

I don't believe John Wesley willed the denomination and the UMC was the offspring of Asbury. Here in a letter to Francis Asbury he chastises Asbury for such activity....

There is a big difference between Wesley not liking the way Asbury ran Methodism in the US and not willing the Methodist Church come into existence in the US. You are completely ignoring Wesley sending Coke and Asbury specifically to start a Methodist denomination in the US that came into being at the Christmas Conference in 1784 when the Methodist Episcopal Church was founded with Coke and Asbury chosen as its leaders, the leaders Wesley sent for that purpose.

If you don't want to be in a Methodist denomination, don't be in one. But don't make up history to justify that decision.

 

[rockytopva]

Sure if you are going to cherry pick quotes from the hundreds of sermons Wesley wrote. But by doing that you ignore the fact that Wesley organized Methodist societies, bands, and classes. He organized circuit riders. He had expectations for Methodists to participate in those groups to be Methodists.

Even the quote you use says, "These are the principles and practices of our sect." Its hard to be a Methodist in any sense that Wesley would have understood it without being part of a body of Methodists. You can call that a denomination, a sect, a society, whatever. It is still an organization of Christians under a specific label.

I believe my denomination, Pentecostal Holiness, was at one time Methodist. When they abandoned the revival, camp meeting, altar service, and the like, it ceased to be so. Just because our denomination was grounded in Methodist doctrine, does not mean we are Methodist!