Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

FineLinen · Apr 20, 2020

renniks said:
Not according to Jesus himself.

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

According to Jesus Christ Himself He will draw the radical pas unto Himself.

"I will draw", NOT might draw, NOT could draw if one is willing....

I the Master of Reconciliation will draw the radical all unto Myself!

FineLinen · Apr 20, 2020

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25

1.______________________________?

2.______________________________?

3.______________________________?

4.______________________________?

5.______________________________?

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Sorry sir, but the good news remains good whether a person likes it or not. It is absolutely positively good, not merely contingently and subjectively good (which wouldn't be any good at all).

Right.
It turns the promise of heaven into a coupon with an expiration date and conditions that apply. (fine print) Cheapens the Good News, really.

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Not so, the damnationist is locked on the horns of a dilemma, because he enthrones fallen man as the determinant of success of Jesus' mission. The gospel lives or dies with a person's response, an act of will. What happened to 'plant the seed and let God give the increase'?

That's a great way to look at it. Thanks.

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
... Jesus IS salvation...

That says a lot in just three words. Kudos.

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
I'm a little confused, so does this mean your an annihilationist...? Or not, etc...? Or does this mean that you think there is a or any or either kind of hell and that they are eternal torment...? Or not...?
God Bless!

Here is my post again. Would you point out which part gives you the idea that I am an annihilationist?
Greek is and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios” and “αιδιος/aidios” as synonyms, see Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17, below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
Notice in 1 Tim 1;17 not only does Paul use "aionios" as a synonym of "aidios" in Rom 1:20 but Paul also defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortal."

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

renniks said:
I see no evidence that God predestines people to destruction. He knows who will refuse him, but that doesn't put the responsibility on him. People aren't his "property", they are free agents. God didn't create puppets.

You don't believe in election? There are no elect? We were not chosen?

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you...

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election...

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

renniks said:
... a seed requires good soil to grow in.

There you go. Who provided the bad soil?

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

Paul writes of this plan of the ages in Eph. 3:8-11. "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and make all to see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the Church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." The word translated "eternal" in the phrase "eternal purpose" is the Greek word AIONON which means "ages." Young's Literal Translation reads, "And to cause all to see what is the fellowship of the secret that has been hid FROM THE AGES in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ, that there might be made known now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenly places, through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to A PURPOSE OF THE AGES, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord." The Diaglott renders verse 11 thus, "According to A PLAN OF THE AGES, which He formed for the Anointed Jesus our Lord," and Rotherham says, "According to A PLAN OF THE AGES which He made in the anointed Jesus our Lord."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

Success or failure?

"The Father willed through Christ to reconcile the universe once more unto Himself, and so to restore all things whatsoever and wheresoever they be." -- LIGHTFOOT on Col. 1:19,20.

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

J. Preston Eby has no formal education in Hebrew or Greek.
About J. Preston Eby – Kingdom Resources

Saint Steven · Apr 20, 2020

renniks said:
... man chooses his own damnation,,,

There it is. Blame the victims.
- Who created hell?
- By who's verdict are "the guilty" sent there?
- Who decided that it is to be "forever with no hope of escape"?
- By who's design does the fire not kill, but sustains torment for eternity?
- What sort of monster have YOU created, that throws humans live
into a volcano after removing their ability to die from it?
- Have you not reduced our loving heavenly Father to an angry volcano god?

Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
There you go. Who provided the bad soil?

Have you ever read the New Testament? If you had you would know that Jesus mentioned bad soil and He said nothing about its origin. Evidently the origin of the bad soil was not important to Jesus. Bad soil is the opposite of good ground vs. 23

Matthew 13:19-23
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
There it is. Blame the victims.
- Who created hell?
- By who's verdict are "the guilty" sent there?
- Who decided that it is to be "forever with no hope of escape"?
- By who's design does the fire not kill, but sustains torment for eternity?
- What sort of monster have YOU created, that throws humans live
into a volcano after removing their ability to die from it?
- Have you not reduced our loving heavenly Father to an angry volcano god?
Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

The answer to your questions is Jesus.
Greek is and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios” and “αιδιος/aidios” as synonyms, see Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17, below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/original/18204/18204-New-Testament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
In 1 Tim 1;17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios" in Rom 1:20 but defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

JacksBratt · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

This question is addressed in the book
The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Here's the opening paragraph.

AMONG all the questions that men have asked, there is one that is of supreme interest and importance. Why are we here? What is our destiny? What lies beyond the grave for the Christian, for the unbeliever? For old, for young? For our fellow citizens, and for the teeming masses in far-away lands serving strange gods? These questions were raised by one of the great poets of all times. I am speaking now of that American genius of letters, Edgar Allen Poe - an incomparable genius, and yet a man whose life was destroyed by unbelief. Millions of people have read his masterpiece, "The Raven," but few, I am afraid, have ever grasped the real spiritual significance of the struggle that was going on in the soul of this man. He asked four very significant questions - questions which every living soul, at one, time or another, must raise to God. First, Is there a God who comforts? Is there a God who can assuage the pain of life? (In this case it is the poignant pain of the loss of a loved one, his beloved Lenore.) Is there "some water from the river of paradise, the water of Nephenthe," which can take away the heartache that is driving him insane? Secondly, he asks, Is there really a Christ? Does He live? Is there a balm in Gilead? Is there One who can smoothe the wrinkled brow and soften the hard heart? Thirdly, he asks, Is there some place, some heaven, some distant Eden or future world where we shall be joined again with our loved ones? And, finally, Is there any hope that the darkness and hopelessness and despair of this life will be lifted? But always he directs his questions to his own unbelief which is personified in that grim and ghastly raven, a picture of doubt and unbelief. A few years after writing those chilling words, Poe became insane. Regaining his sanity, he drank himself to death, and this genius was found dead in the gutter.

Source: Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Audio version: By J. Preston Eby Audio – Kingdom Resources

His questions are those of an unbeliever...

I don't have any questions anything like those...

renniks · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You don't believe in election? There are no elect? We were not chosen?

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you...

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election...

Ah, and this is why I say universalists are just Calvinist with the exception of limited atonement.
The elect are who?
Notice that you can make your election sure.
Where's it say everyone will be considered among the elect?
It doesn't.
Only those whose names are written in the book of Life, and that's the ones who are in Christ.

Jesus chose his disciples, yet one of them betrayed him. This choosing isn't irresistible. It's not a relationship if one party forced the other to remain faithful.

JacksBratt · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. What has become of them? Is there no hope? For more than six thousand years generations of men, like the grass, have appeared and in a few fleeting years withered and vanished. Whence came those countless billions of human beings, and where do they go? This is the problem which has preoccupied the world's thought since the dawn of history. This is the question about which philosophers have theorized and theologians have dogmatized. Unquestionably the problem of the eternal destiny of mankind is the question of questions! It concerns every individual and touches everything of enduring interest. Life is a vapor that appears for a while and vanishes away. But there is a beyond! What is that beyond to be?

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

We are saved by Christ's work on the cross. Not by our own works but by Him paying our penalty.

Those the don't hear of this work are still held to this:

Romans 1:18-20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Nobody is without excuse. The knowledge of right and wrong, righteousness and unrighteousness, is written on our hearts..

Even in remote tribes there was knowledge of the wrong of killing and stealing.. and other sins..

God has displayed Himself through the creation of the world.

God will judge those who have not heard the "good news" of the gospel.. on how they accepted or rejected the knowledge that is given to all.

In the end.. they are still saved by Christ's work.. It is His payment for the sins of the world that gives salvation... No human could have been saved if it was not for this work of Christ.

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Success or failure?
"The Father willed through Christ to reconcile the universe once more unto Himself, and so to restore all things whatsoever and wheresoever they be." -- LIGHTFOOT on Col. 1:19,20.

Success or failure? Let's read this verse "in context."

Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If the reconciliation was a done deal why did Paul put a condition on it in vs. 23
"If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel..." Why would believers have to "continue in the faith etc." if they would be reconciled no matter what?

renniks · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Thanks for confirming what I said. God only gives to those who ask.

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Right.
It turns the promise of heaven into a coupon with an expiration date and conditions that apply. (fine print) Cheapens the Good News, really.

The conditions do apply.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Searching for Truth

Well-Known Member

Searching for Truth

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency