Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

nolidad · May 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
The Master of reconciliation declares He will draw/ drag off in power/ impel/ ALL mankind to Himself!

The radical all of pas is NOT tis (some) ! !

And you refuse to acknowledge that the same Master of REconsiliation also said the only one who will come to Him are the ones drawn to HIm by th eFather! Why you refuse to recognize that is a mystery!

Also the same Master of Reconsiliation also said only a few find Zoe! Another you fail to recognize.

You also fail to acknowledge the truth that if aionios kolasis in Mt. 25:46 is tem[porary, then aionios zoe in the same verse must also be temporary!

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
Having had the discussion that "aionios does not mean eternal." many, many times on this forum I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT. In the list below I show where Paul uses "aionios" synonymously with "aidios."
….

Der Alter said:
...
[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here by definition means eternal or everlasting life.

No, believers who are promised aionion life - if aionion life is a finite period such as the millenium - could not perish because they will have immortality. So your argument is not only unsound logically but also unscriptural.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, non universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

**************************************

For a response to other passages on your list:

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

nolidad · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
Having had the discussion that "aionios does not mean eternal." many, many times on this forum I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT. In the list below I show where Paul uses "aionios" synonymously with "aidios."
…..Some people argue that αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the below verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never uses “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal. Paul used :aionios” twenty one times. In only 3 verses Paul used “aionios” to mean “world.” Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 16:25.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
[1] Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:[/indent]
[2] Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” without question means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/telos]
In this verse the angel of the Lord has paired βασιλευσει/basileusei, the reign, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage Paul has contrasted “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse Paul has contrasted “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 Peter paired “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity.” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Paul paired “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Paul contrasted “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never[ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12] 1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse John contrasted “aionios” with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Paul paired “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” simultaneously. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” simulataneously. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse Paul paired “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse the angel paired “aionas aionon torment” with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and ever.” Doubling of words is a Hebraism, for emphasis. Hebrew did not have superlatives.
[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus paired “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul contrasted “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul paired “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios life” with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[23]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” Aionios as indefinite age is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
●"The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally." Marvin Vincent
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
.● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

I know. the trio of FL, ST. S, and Cof A have to avoid answering these truths because it makes their entire faulty argument of UR fall apart.

Heck I would love to believe it is true! Would make the task of evangelizing easier knowing that everyone will make it. But then we would have to deny God.

nolidad · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

First prove Jesus was just referring to teh first century situation! You made the claim, you must have something to support it empirically- so put up or stop posting falsehoods.

FineLinen · May 2, 2020

nolidad said:
I know. the trio of FL, ST. S, and Cof A have to avoid answering these truths because it makes their entire faulty argument of UR fall apart.

Heck I would love to believe it is true! Would make the task of evangelizing easier knowing that everyone will make it. But then we would have to deny God.

You gigantic silly!

If the Restitution of ta pavnte is faulty, the Author out of whom it flows has given us faulty indications of what He "cherishes".

From Him ta pavnte, through Him ta pavnte, unto Him ta pavnte.

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

nolidad said:
Well if they have been dropping it is because of th etimes we live in and the warning we had from Paul:

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. [4], And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.

Fables? Like ECT & annihilationism?

That passage is well applied to those who love the idea of a monster-god who torments many of his creatures for all the endless ages of eternity:

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

Their - pathologically - "itching ears" do "gather around them a great number of teachers to say what" they "want to hear" to "suit their own (patholigical) desires". Compare, for example, the KKK, the Pharisees, & the like, of which there are many millions.

2 Tim.4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own DESIRES. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to MYTHS.

Myths? There are various endless punishment "myths", e.g. those believed by most Muslims, those believed by some Jews, various types believed in by various Christian denominations. Some even think aborted babies will be burning forever.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Fables. Myths. Like endless torments as described by the likes of Jonathan Edwards & the Christ rejecting Jews (e.g. the Pharisees), to try to control the masses - & their bank accounts - with fear.

nolidad said:
Well maybe you (unlike the others who have made this allegation) will provide the evidence that the vast majority of English, Greek, Spanish , French, Russian etc.etc. translations have decieved people and misled them. Otherwise I tire of this allegation without evidence.

If you read the threads i've started, that would be a start. Let me know how you respond to the "evidence". Your appeal to "majority" is not evidence & weak.

Checkout the - orthodox - universalism majority in the early church (and a hope for universalism majority in the present day church):

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

nolidad said:
Another allegation without evidence!

"If that is it's only definition, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. What is it, a pocket dictionary of modern Greek."

Easy to prove. Read this:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

nolidad said:
Once again you UR holders fail to address the conclusion that aionios is tranlated eternal or everlasting many many many many times! Literally it is age enduring! So one has to look at the age being spoken of to know if it is a finite age or an infinite age!

What the non universalists need is to prove it means eternal in any passage concerning postmortem punishment.

nolidad said:
So if you want us to accept that aionios can only mean a limited time then life in heaven is only for a limited time as well.

Mt. 25:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If aionios is finite in Mt.25:46, that does NOT mean the believers time "in heaven is only for a limited time as well."
Because, for example, the Bible says believers will have immortality. So you err, not knowing the Scriptures.

nolidad said:
They are both exact! so if the aionios kolasis is temporary, then the aionios zoe is temporary as well. You cannot have it mean differing things in the same passage!

That's your assumption which just ignores & does not address what i posted, & the case made here:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Even if the 2 aionios are coequal in Mt.25:46, that is harmonious with universalism:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

nolidad said:
And aidios which appears just 2X is translated eternal and everlastin! Just like aionios!

If aidios means eternal, so what? God never uses it in Scripture to support a false doctrine of endless tortures. Neither does He use words like "NEVER saved", "NO END of torments", or "ENDLESS pain", even though such words have their Greek equivalents used in the NT. For more on that:

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

nolidad said:
YOu rprotestations cannot stand up to the Word of God as written and not reinterpreted by men like that Thomson fella!

Stay safe, have a great weekend. Love Omnipotent loves you beyond what you can even imagine!

Der Alte · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
...
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

I prefer to have discussions with people who actually participate in this forum. People who can do their own studying and communicate their own thoughts rather than endless copy/pastes from biased UR websites.
Vague suppositions about what Jesus "should have" said in any given situation are meaningless.

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

nolidad said:
First prove Jesus was just referring to teh first century situation! You made the claim, you must have something to support it empirically- so put up or stop posting falsehoods.

Please read the post again, or for the first time. It's there.

Der Alte · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
...If aionios is finite in Mt.25:46, that does NOT mean the believers time "in heaven is only for a limited time as well."
Because, for example, the Bible says believers will have immortality. So you err, not knowing the Scriptures....

Looks like we have a little double talk going on here. In another post you said that "immortal" and "aionios" in the same verse does not prove that "aionios" means "eternal."
Here you imply that "aionios" in Matt 25:46 does not mean a finite time because the Bible says believers will have immortality.
You can't have it both ways amigo

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
I prefer to have discussions with people who actually participate in this forum. People who can do their own studying and communicate their own thoughts rather than endless copy/pastes from biased UR websites.

That's interesting considering you today responded to the quotes in one of my posts, but failed to respond to any of my own comments in it in reply to yours.

Der Alter said:
Vague suppositions about what Jesus "should have" said in any given situation are meaningless.

It's a legitimate position which you clearly have taken seriously in previous responses of yours to it, but this time chose to dismiss lightly:

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
Looks like we have a little double talk going on here. In another post you said that "immortal" and "aionios" in the same verse does not prove that "aionios" means "eternal."

Here you imply that "aionios" in Matt 25:46 does not mean a finite time because the Bible says believers will have immortality.
You can't have it both ways amigo

Your second paragraph above is incorrect. Mt.25:46 may just be contrasting finite destinies in a single eon or two, & be saying nothing about final endless destinies. As i recall this was already explained earlier in this thread as well as in the post i referenced here:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Der Alte · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come....

This is absolutely false and you know it. I have proved it to you before from Origen's Commentary on the gospel of John." In order to respond to a previous post I paid about $60 to purchase Origen's Commentary from Logos, to see if Origen said what you claim. And he didn't.
Origen says absolutely nothing about "life" "after aionios life."
Origen's only reference to "after aionios life" is he says after the fountain leaps into "eternal life" John 4:14. "perhaps it leaps into the father." There is NO mention of anything after eternal life for believers.
Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]

(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[3]

Note here Origen affirms that eternal life "never perishes,""remains,""not taken away" and "not consumed,""
We know he is talking about "aionios" because he is referring to "aionios life" in John 4;14

[1][2][3]Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
This is absolutely false and you know it.

Where did you dig that post of mine up from? Did i even post it in this thread? If so, what post #?

Why post the quote out of context without providing a link to the post & the context the quote appears in?

What makes you think i know it is "absolutely false? Do you claim to be able to read the minds of anonymous internet posters? Are you accusing me of lieing?

Exactly what do you think is false?

Der Alter said:
Note here Origen affirms that eternal life "never perishes,""remains,""not taken away" and "not consumed,""

As i've told you before, those are the words of Heracleon, not Origen. Origen is quoting Heracleon's opinion.

Assuming that translation is even accurate, of course.

Der Alte · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
Where did you dig that post of mine up from? Did i even post it in this thread? If so, what post #? Why post the quote out of context without providing a link to the post & the context the quote appears in?
What makes you think i know it is "absolutely false? Do you claim to be able to read the minds of anonymous internet posters? Are you accusing me of lieing?
Exactly what part of the quote do you think is false?

Post #614 this thread. Read my post I clearly stated what is false.
Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
Post #614 this thread. Read my post I clearly stated what is false.
Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

I read it, so exactly what is false?

Der Alter said:
Note here Origen affirms that eternal life "never perishes,""remains,""not taken away" and "not consumed,""

As i've told you before, those are the words of Heracleon, not Origen. Origen is quoting Heracleon's opinion.

Der Alte · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
I read it, so exactly what is false?

Did you read my post I clearly explained it. You said Origen said something about "life after eternal life."

As i've told you before, those are the words of Heracleon, not Origen. Origen is quoting Heracleon's opinion.

Now all you have to do is show me where Origen said that Heracleon was wrong about "eternal life."
That is the only way you can make your objection stick. The digital version costs about $60.

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[1]

And I found some more evidence for Origen's view on "aionios" in his commentary on John

(291) But neither is it possible here to understand the statement “He who reaps receives a reward, and gathers fruit for eternal life” to have reference to the same things as the statement, “He who sows in the flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption, and he who sows in the spirit, of the spirit will reap eternal life.”

Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by contrasting it with corruption.

(292) For according to the Apostle’s words, it is the same person who sows and reaps, whether in the flesh or in the spirit, and on this basis reaps either corruption or eternal life. But according to the present words, it is one who sows and another who reaps.[1] Pg 128

Here Origen defines "aionios" by contrastl"ng it with "corruption."

(408) These words prove that death is capable of being tasted, “There are some of those standing here who will not taste death,” etc., and the following prove that it can be seen, “If anyone shall keep my word, he will not see death forever.”425

Here Origen defines "aionios" by quoting Jesus who contrasts "aionios" with death.

(409) Now he who utters words contrary to the words of eternal life tastes death; and not only does he taste it, but he is also filled with death as food.[2] Pg. 289

Here Origen defines "aionios" by contrasting it with death.

[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 128–129). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.
[2] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, p. 289). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

Some more quotes from Origen's public domain writings.

Origen De Principiis Book III.Chap I
6. But, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou art treasuring up for thyself wrath on the day of judgment and of the revelation of the just judgment of God, who will render to every one according to his work: to those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and immortality, eternal life;38

Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality."

Ibid. 13. Nay, the very fact that He is long-suffering conduces to the advantage of those very persons, since the soul over which He exercises this providential care is immortal; and, as being immortal and everlasting, it is not, although not immediately cared for, excluded from salvation, which is postponed to a more convenient time.

Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality."

De Principiis. Book IV. Chap I
36. And not only so, but because the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.

Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "incorruptible."

Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap III
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Here Origen quotes Rom 1:20.

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

Der Alter said:
Now all you have to do is show me where Origen said that Heracleon was wrong about "eternal life."

Why? You were the one making a claim. So the onus is on you to support it with evidence. Which you have not done. You claimed:

"Note here Origen affirms that eternal life "never perishes,""remains,""not taken away" and "not consumed,""

But, again, those are the words of Heracleon, not Origen. Origen is quoting Heracleon's opinion. So where is your evidence of Oregon affirming what you claim there? You gave no evidence that your opinion is true. And you failed to note that those are the words of Heracleon, not Origen. You quote Heracleon & then claim what "Origen affirms". So you seem confused.

Furthermore, in the same work Origen speaks of what is "after eternal(aionios) life" and "beyond eternal(aionios) life":

(19) "And after eternal(aionios) life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal(aionios) life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life."

ClementofA · May 3, 2020

Der Alter said:
And I found some more evidence for Origen's view on "aionios" in his commentary on John

(291) But neither is it possible here to understand the statement “He who reaps receives a reward, and gathers fruit for eternal life” to have reference to the same things as the statement, “He who sows in the flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption, and he who sows in the spirit, of the spirit will reap eternal life.”
Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by contrasting it with corruption.

(292) For according to the Apostle’s words, it is the same person who sows and reaps, whether in the flesh or in the spirit, and on this basis reaps either corruption or eternal life. But according to the present words, it is one who sows and another who reaps.[1] Pg 128
Here Origen defines "aionios" by contrastl"ng it with "corruption."

Origen is speaking about Ga.6:8.

To contrast something with another thing is different from defining it. So i have no idea why you baldly state that "Origen defines "aionios" by contrastl"ng it with "corruption." " with no evidence to back up that mere opinion.

The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the "life" or "eonian" or "life eonian" must be endless.

Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping
corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after "aionios (eternal) life", thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). That age may be finite as Scripture often speaks of multiple future ages to come. Which would limit aionios there to that finite period.

Furthermore, Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making "olam life" in this context finite. Olam life is the Hebrew equivalent of "aionios life" in the New Testament. FFI on that see: "aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, dan 12 2-3":
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to
the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Even as translated above, this passage does not say anyone will never be saved or never obtain "eternal life". All humans have been unbelievers, sown to the flesh & reaped corruption as a result, including those who later became believers. And there is nothing in this passage, or anywhere in the 66 books, saying all won't eventually become believers.

OTOH more literal translations don't use the word "eternal", but rather "age lasting", "eonian, etc, e.g.:

7 Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (CLV) Galatians Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, Who rouses Him from among the dead), 6

7 Be not led astray; God is not mocked; for what a man may sow—that also he shall reap, 8 because he who is sowing to his own flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption; and he who is sowing to the Spirit, of the Spirit shall reap life age-during; (YLT)

7 Be not deceiving yourselves! God, is not to be mocked; for, whatsoever a man soweth, the same, shall he also reap,— 8 Because, he that soweth into his own flesh, out of the flesh, shall reap corruption, whereas, he that soweth into the Spirit, out of the Spirit, shall reap age-abiding life. (RO)

7 Not do you mistake; God not is to be mocked at. That for if may sow a man, this also he will reap; 8 because the one sowing for the flesh of himself, from the flesh he will reap corruption; the but one sowing for the spirit, from of the spirit he will reap life age-lasting. (DG)

Online Parallel Study Bibles

So even if unbelievers lose out on "eonian life" in, for example, the millennial eon, that doesn't rule out their salvation in an eon after that.

Der Alter said:
(408) These words prove that death is capable of being tasted, “There are some of those standing here who will not taste death,” etc., and the following prove that it can be seen, “If anyone shall keep my word, he will not see death forever.”425
Here Origen defines "aionios" by quoting Jesus who contrasts "aionios" with death.

There Origen refers to John 8:51. The Greek word used for the erroneous English rendering "forever" there is not, as you stated, aionios (Strongs #166), but aiona (age, eon, Strongs #165). A couple literal translations say:

Jn.8:51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see -- to the age.' (YLT)
8:51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon." (CLV)

Compare also this Greek-English interlinear: John 8:51 Greek Text Analysis

To contrast something with another thing is different from defining it. So i have no idea why you baldly state that in John 8:51 "Origen defines "aionios" by quoting Jesus who contrasts "aionios" with death." You gave no evidence to back up that mere opinion. And didn't even state what the definition is.

Der Alter said:
(409) Now he who utters words contrary to the words of eternal life tastes death; and not only does he taste it, but he is also filled with death as food.[2] Pg. 289
Here Origen defines "aionios" by contrasting it with death.

[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 128–129). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.
[2] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, p. 289). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

The death Origen speaks of there is not necessarily eternal, so why assume aionios there is eternal.

Once again you provide a mere assertion with no evidence.

Just because two words are contrasted does not provide justification to state that one of them is therefore defined.

Moreover you didn't even state what that alleged definition is.

Der Alter said:
Some more quotes from Origen's public domain writings.

Origen De Principiis Book III.Chap I
6. But, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou art treasuring up for thyself wrath on the day of judgment and of the revelation of the just judgment of God, who will render to every one according to his work: to those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and immortality, eternal life;38
Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality."

Ibid. 13. Nay, the very fact that He is long-suffering conduces to the advantage of those very persons, since the soul over which He exercises this providential care is immortal; and, as being immortal and everlasting, it is not, although not immediately cared for, excluded from salvation, which is postponed to a more convenient time.
Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality."

Sorry, there is no mention of the word "definition" by Origen there who quoted Paul's words in Romans 2:7. Neither does Paul mention "definition".

Furthermore, if aionios life there meant eternal life, adding immortality would be redundant, pointless, since immortality already conveys the idea of an endless life.

Rom.2:[7] to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian (CLV)

Romans 2 Wherefore, defenseless are you, O man! everyone who is judging, for in what you are judging another, you are condemning yourself, for you who are judging are committing the same things."

Paul can be interpreted as contrasting those who get aionios life (Rom.2:7) with those who get wrath on a certain "day", the "day of wrath" (Rom.2:5). Not 'the eternity of wrath'. Endless wrath is not mentioned in this context, but "indignation... ,tribulation and distress" (v.8-9).

Also as regards a "day of wrath" (2:5), we understand that a "day" of punishment is not an endless punishment, though in Scripture a day can be 1000 years to the Lord (2 Pet.3:8). And 1000 years is the length of the millennial age eon kingdom of the Lord. So why couldn't this passage be contrasting eonian destinies in the future millennium? The gift of eon-ian life [life in the millennial age eon] being to those who seek "glory, honor & purity" or incorruption (of soul & spirit, in this life).

Concerning the objection "but only God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!", neither Paul, Scripture or Universalists use the word "only". Not that anyone deserves a future life of endless bliss, or even for 1000 or 25,000 years, but there are many other statements in Romans, in Paul's other writings & the NT as a whole in support of an endless life being the gift that Love Omnipotent shall grant to those who are His in this world, e.g. Romans 8:31-38. Ultimately, IMO, all shall obtain such a life:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Rom.8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Der Alter said:
De Principiis. Book IV. Chap I
36. And not only so, but because the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.
Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "incorruptible."

Sorry, there is no mention of the word "definition" by Origen there. And you provided no evidence for your opinion or even that the Greek word aionios even occurs in that passage. I wouldn't be surprised if it is aidios instead. It is aidios that occurs in your next quote here:

Der Alter said:
Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap III
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Here Origen quotes Rom 1:20.

Yes, he does. And?

Saint Steven · May 3, 2020

The late Dr. Einstein discovered, at least theoretically, that time and space are interdependent, inseparably related, and form a four-dimensional continuum (length, height, depth, and duration). That is to say, there is no space without time, and no time without space. Space cannot be traversed without the passage of time; without the passage of time, there is no traversing of space. That is why in His post-resurrection, spiritual body, Jesus was able immediately to transcend and traverse the space-time continuum with the speed of thought. By Christ's power, space and time cohere and consist. Without His binding power, space and time would become nonexistent. Also, since we know from the Scriptures that space is created, we can then know that time is created, too. We can also understand that both time and space (as we presently know them) will end together at the conclusion of the ages.

I am compelled to state that the Bible says very little by way of a definition of eternity because the Bible is essentially a book of time and for time. It was written for man who lives in a temporal state and who is not yet a totally eternal being. Only as we enter that state of being called eternity... only as HE who IS ETERNITY becomes "All in All" in us... only as we are spiritually metamorphosized into our eternal condition... only as eternity becomes an absolute reality to us... only then will formerly temporal beings such as we now are truly comprehend and understand eternity and things of an eternal nature. This marvelous work has now begun within our spirit as our spirit has been quickened by His Spirit. I stated that the Bible is relatively silent about what eternity is; that is not to say that human teachings and theology haven't taught us a great deal about eternity, but, alas! much of it over the past centuries has come from the carnal minds of Babylonish theologians and not from the mind of the Eternal One via the Holy Spirit.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Der Alte · May 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
...Post 658
Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?
Sorry, there is no mention of the word "definition" by Origen there who quoted Paul's words in Romans 2:7. Neither does Paul mention "definition"...

The same irrelevant, specious objections as before. And OBTW I just described/defined your objections with 2 adjectives and I didn't use the words "define" or "describe." In case you do know it or refuse to accept it that is the way language works.
Here is a real life example. In the early '60s I was speaking to someone in German. She used a word that I didn't understand "beinahe" pronounce by-nah-eh. I told her I did not understand she said "Es ist noch nicht elf uhr aber beinahe elf uhr." "It is not yet eleven o'clock but blank eleven o'clock." I understood that "beinahe" meant "almost." She defined the word "beinahe" but she did not say "This is the definition."

Merriam-Webster Dictionary Definition of define
transitive verb
1a: to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of whatever defines us as human
b: to discover and set forth the meaning of (something, such as a word)how the dictionary defines "grotesque"

So one does not have to say this is the definition or I am defining for a descriptive statement to be a definition.
Let me know if you want to provide a reasoned, rational objection to my post other than "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh."

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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