Saving Christmas, Take Two

[ValleyGal]

I just read IDay's link to Kirk Cameron's "Saving Christmas" post. I can see IDay's question rising out of it is legit, and want to ensure his thread stays on topic, but when I read the link, my reaction had little to do with saving Christmas. Rather, my reaction was to Mr. Cameron's idea that women and wives should bake, clean, and decorate with "joy" being evident in it because if you lose your joy, you lose your strength. Iow, how strong of a woman or wife you are, is evident in how joyously you decorate your home for the holidays.

I found this soooo insulting on a number of levels. First, the sexist idea that women and women alone are responsible for the joy in their home and in their children. I'm sorry, but in my world where the husband is the "head" it means that the husband is responsible for the "tone" of the family. Indeed, IDay sets a peaceful and kind home, a place where it's safe to be vulnerable when there is no joy and where there are real-life struggles. Be a man, Mr. Cameron, and stop putting your responsibility onto your wife...it is not up to her to set the tone in the family.

Second, I am offended at the idea that my joy will come out in how clean and decorated my home is this Christmas, and that I should invite all kinds of people into my home to show it off. Mr. Cameron is obviously oblivious to the millions of people who have all the joy in the world but no decorations for their home - or those who decorate with all new decorations but who are grieving the death of a family member this year. He is obviously oblivious to those who are using the same dollar store decorations they purchased 8 years ago because they can't afford anything new, and are struggling to just find enough money for a turkey sandwich this Christmas. He is obviously oblivious to those who, no matter how hard they try, have lost all hope and need antidepressants just to make it through the day. Get real, Mr. Cameron....you have no idea what real life is like.

Third, I am extremely offended that he is making a show about saving Christmas - addressing the commercialization of Christmas, but he is doing it at Christmas time....in essence by putting this out, he is doing exactly what he is condemning! Just a little double-minded, hypocritical, etc.

So....IDay's thread is about whether or not Christmas needs saving. This thread is for the feminists to rant and the poor to lament....

 

[Odetta]

I was put off but what Mr. Cameron said as well. You just said why so eloquently.

 

[DZoolander]

The cynical side of me sees Cameron as nothing but a dude who found himself an undesirable has-been in Hollywood - and decided to re-invent himself as a touchstone for the millions of Christians out there aching to "show just how Christian they are."

 

[AirForceTeacher]

IMNSHO, Kirk is about the worst poster child we could select to reach a dying world.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I do it the easy way...I don't celebrate. I look at it as an extra week or two off from work where I can do what I want (which will probably be going up to CO and going skiing) Get to hang out w/the nieces and nephews, have some fun, a few drinks, shop a bit and generally kick back.

Christ was not born on December 25th and there is no NT record of celebrating that day. So...how on earth can someone say stuff about "Keeping Christ in Christmas"? Its a manufactured holiday just like most of the rest of them.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

The cynical side of me sees Cameron as nothing but a dude who found himself an undesirable has-been in Hollywood - and decided to re-invent himself as a touchstone for the millions of Christians out there aching to "show just how Christian they are."

I don't think this is so cynical. The trouble I have (as a somewhat disillusioned Evangelical) is that guys like Kirk are the face of American Evangelicalism. It's a contorted picture of a belief that's gone waaaay off the radar and doesn't resemble what Evangelicals of all stripes really believe. For me, as more of a moderate, there's really no place for me any longer inside the circle because everything is so conservative. Like what's said in the OP, Merry Christmas, now get in the kitchen and fix up the house, ladies, 'cause that's your job! Not my world-view, but that's the conservative American Evangelical world-view.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I do it the easy way...I don't celebrate. I look at it as an extra week or two off from work where I can do what I want (which will probably be going up to CO and going skiing) Get to hang out w/the nieces and nephews, have some fun, a few drinks, shop a bit and generally kick back.

Christ was not born on December 25th and there is no NT record of celebrating that day. So...how on earth can someone say stuff about "Keeping Christ in Christmas"? Its a manufactured holiday just like most of the rest of them.

Here's a question - do you celebrate your birth, even though you don't REALLY know when you were born, other than someone telling you? Of course we don't know the date, but it's not about the when, but the Who and why. We now return you to our regularly scheduled OP...

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Here's a question - do you celebrate your birth, even though you don't REALLY know when you were born, other than someone telling you? Of course we don't know the date, but it's not about the when, but the Who and why. We now return you to our regularly scheduled OP...

Considering I have plenty of evidence for the date, time and place of my birth...well...I don't really celebrate it anyway, especially as now I have crossed the half-century mark.

 

[Odetta]

The Jewish calendar is filled with festivals and holidays that are times of celebration and remembrance of what God has done for them. Passover is in remembrance of the exodus from Egypt, for instance. Surely they should always remember God's provision and protection during that time, but a specific time is still set aside to focus on it, and God ordained it in the Bible.

I see no problem celebrating Christmas on a specific day, even if it isn't in what is more likely the time of year that Jesus was born. Because while we should always remember why Jesus was born, having one day a year to focus more on it can be a refresher and it honors Him. And there is a biblical precedent for having such holidays.

As for celebrating birthdays, I know people who have adopted from a third world country, where there were no records of birthdays. So they arbitrarily set a date to celebrate - can't remember if it's the date they picked up their child, or the date the courts signed off on the adoption, or what. But there is a day set aside to celebrate the child that they are thankful to have all year long.

 

[sdmsanjose]

I do not know much at all about Cameron but thought that I owuld post his defense regarding his suggestion for moms/wife’s to show their joy this Christmas. Perhaps Mr. Cameron was trying to connect Christmas with one of the old traditional ways that moms/wife’s joy helped their family enjoy Christmas. In his defense statement I would like to have seen him talk about his role as the husband/father and how he could add joy to Christmas. The fact that he did not makes me think that he is narrow minded or insensitive. However, like I said I know almost nothing about Cameron so I will just post his defense below:

“If you are a mom, if you are a wife, if you’re the keeper of your home, I want you to know that your joy is so important this Christmas,” Cameron told his fans, before urging women to “let your children, your family, see your joy in the way that you decorate your home this Christmas, in the food that you cook, the songs you sing, the stories you tell, and the traditions that you keep.” He added, “Invite your whole neighborhood into your Christmas.”
While Cameron evidently meant no harm with his words, they were immediately taken as somewhat demeaning to women by the several sites that picked them up this week.

Cameron insisted that he doesn’t believe women should be home “barefoot and pregnant,” pointing out that his wife collaborates with him on his film projects, including his latest, Saving Christmas, which the Facebook post was intended to promote.

“What I mean is I see how hard my wife works, and she has chosen to reserve her time, her energy, everything at this chapter in her life to pour into six kids, which is a huge job,” Cameron said. “And I know that it is not just a little offensive to millions of moms out there who have chosen to do the same thing and sacrifice so much to be at home, when they scrape their knee and to have the house the way that they want, for someone to even imply that that is somehow less than carrying a briefcase and having a job professionally.”

Andrea Tantaros called out supposed “straight-news” operations like Yahoo for “editorializing” Cameron’s comments. But on the flip side, the hosts of Outnumbered uniformly defended what he said and accused his critics of deliberately “misinterpreting” his meaning.

Kirk Cameron Defends Comments About Women’s Place in the Home on Fox | Mediaite

 

[ValleyGal]

Soooo, this is not a debate about whether or not we should be celebrating Christmas. I believe we should, for nothing more than a reminder of the joyous gift of salvation through Messiah. We would not be able to celebrate his resurrection and ascension unless he was first born to die. For me, that is not in question and is not the subject of this thread.... for me, it is more about how Mr. Cameron has taken advantage of Christmas commercialization to speak out against commercialization, about how he expects Christian women to decorate with joy and then show it off as a sign of their strength. Imo, he is not a representative of Evangelical Christianity at all. He is a representative of Christian fundamentalism and possibly even legalism. Imo, the fundamentalists are attempting to adopt the term "Evangelical" to escape the bad reputation they earned as fundamentalists.

If Evangelicalism is a problem, it might be helpful to read the Evangelical Manifesto. Mr. Cameron does not live out his faith the way Evangelicals do. He represents fundamentalism, which screams very loudly from his idea that women should be responsible for making sure everyone in their home has joy.

 

[ValleyGal]

I could not even watch that video....I could not get past the concept that stay-home moms are making a "sacrifice" to be there with their children. I'm sorry, but as a single mom, I made a lifetime of sacrifices to go out and work for my son's sake, so he could enjoy things like karate and swimming lessons, when his father never paid one red cent for any of his upbringing.

Here is what Mr. Cameron said in the tweet:

Calling all moms, wives, and keepers of your home- I made this video for you, to remind you of how irreplaceable you are to your family this Christmas.

How irreplaceable we are to our families has nothing to do with how well we decorate or show "joy" to the neighbourhood. All he did, imo, is dig a deeper hole. I repeat, Mr. Cameron has no idea what life is really like out there for millions of Americans who do not have the resources or intact family that he does. It has nothing to do with work inside or outside the home....it has to do with the attitude that women are responsible for the joy in their home, and that joy is in direct correlation with her strength. I'm sorry, but Jesus is just as strong for those who take joy in him as he is for those who fall prone and hopeless before him in sorrow and emptiness.

 

[mkgal1]

The trouble I have (as a somewhat disillusioned Evangelical) is that guys like Kirk are the face of American Evangelicalism. It's a contorted picture of a belief that's gone waaaay off the radar and doesn't resemble what Evangelicals of all stripes really believe.

Oh.....but if they don't believe like this *yet*....many will latch on to this believing that they *must* adopt this belief system in order to be "a good Christian"---and *that's* the problem I have with it all. It's the "jump on my bandwagon or else" tactic that I'm not a fan of.

 

[mkgal1]

How irreplaceable we are to our families has nothing to do with how well we decorate. All he did, imo, is dig a deeper hole. I repeat, Mr. Cameron has no idea what life is really like out there for millions of Americans who do not have the resources or intact family that he does. It has nothing to do with work inside or outside the home....it has to do with the attitude that women are responsible for the joy in their home, and that joy is in direct correlation with her strength. I'm sorry, but Jesus is just as strong for those who take joy in him as he is for those who fall prone and hopeless before him in sorrow and emptiness.

I agree.

 

[AirForceTeacher]

Oh.....but if they don't believe like this *yet*....many will latch on to this believing that they *must* adopt this belief system in order to be "a good Christian"---and *that's* the problem I have with it all. It's the "jump on my bandwagon or else" tactic that I'm not a fan of.

Bing! I was miserable in AoG trying to fit in and be like everyone else.

 

[mkgal1]

Bing! I was miserable in AoG trying to fit in and be like everyone else.

Exactly my point (sorry you had that experience, but it's freeing when you realize it's not you....right?).

I heard a pastor say a while ago that if a person looks around the sanctuary of their church, and what they see are a lot of other people in their age-range.....their style of dress.....their income bracket....etc---then what they have isn't a "church"....they have a "social club".

 

[Hetta]

I just read IDay's link to Kirk Cameron's "Saving Christmas" post. I can see IDay's question rising out of it is legit, and want to ensure his thread stays on topic, but when I read the link, my reaction had little to do with saving Christmas. Rather, my reaction was to Mr. Cameron's idea that women and wives should bake, clean, and decorate with "joy" being evident in it because if you lose your joy, you lose your strength. Iow, how strong of a woman or wife you are, is evident in how joyously you decorate your home for the holidays.

I found this soooo insulting on a number of levels. First, the sexist idea that women and women alone are responsible for the joy in their home and in their children. I'm sorry, but in my world where the husband is the "head" it means that the husband is responsible for the "tone" of the family. Indeed, IDay sets a peaceful and kind home, a place where it's safe to be vulnerable when there is no joy and where there are real-life struggles. Be a man, Mr. Cameron, and stop putting your responsibility onto your wife...it is not up to her to set the tone in the family.

Second, I am offended at the idea that my joy will come out in how clean and decorated my home is this Christmas, and that I should invite all kinds of people into my home to show it off. Mr. Cameron is obviously oblivious to the millions of people who have all the joy in the world but no decorations for their home - or those who decorate with all new decorations but who are grieving the death of a family member this year. He is obviously oblivious to those who are using the same dollar store decorations they purchased 8 years ago because they can't afford anything new, and are struggling to just find enough money for a turkey sandwich this Christmas. He is obviously oblivious to those who, no matter how hard they try, have lost all hope and need antidepressants just to make it through the day. Get real, Mr. Cameron....you have no idea what real life is like.

Third, I am extremely offended that he is making a show about saving Christmas - addressing the commercialization of Christmas, but he is doing it at Christmas time....in essence by putting this out, he is doing exactly what he is condemning! Just a little double-minded, hypocritical, etc.

So....IDay's thread is about whether or not Christmas needs saving. This thread is for the feminists to rant and the poor to lament....

I think that KC assumes that all women are SAHW/M and have all day long to do nothing but 'cheerily' bake and sing and tell stories to a handful of pink cheeked, smiling children who are quietly sitting around a scrubbed wooden table, having come in from happily building snowmen. These kids never argue, never roll their eyes or say "mom, I've heard all that before" or "I'm bored" or shove their brother/sister or fight their brother/sister or argue. It's entirely a fantasy world perhaps based on some Hollywood movie of the 1950s.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I think that KC assumes that all women are SAHW/M and have all day long to do nothing but 'cheerily' bake and sing and tell stories to a handful of pink cheeked, smiling children who are quietly sitting around a scrubbed wooden table, having come in from happily building snowmen. These kids never argue, never roll their eyes or say "mom, I've heard all that before" or "I'm bored" or shove their brother/sister or fight their brother/sister or argue. It's entirely a fantasy world perhaps based on some Hollywood movie of the 1950s.

My mom was a SAHM until my little brother was in school. Yeah, we were just as sweet as we could be (there's about 10 years between my oldest brother and my youngest brother) IF you ignored the yelling, door-slamming, eye-rolling, sarcasm, occasional full-out hand to hand combat, and all the stuff that comes with having 5 kids. My mother didn't "sing"...she yelled. My dad didn't come home from work and put his feet up and smoke a pipe...he was too busy chauffeuring, coaching, going to games, all that stuff.

Our house was loud, raucous, crowded, and generally insane. It was fun. KC's version is something out of Leave It To Beaver.

 

[seeingeyes]

I just read IDay's link to Kirk Cameron's "Saving Christmas" post. I can see IDay's question rising out of it is legit, and want to ensure his thread stays on topic, but when I read the link, my reaction had little to do with saving Christmas. Rather, my reaction was to Mr. Cameron's idea that women and wives should bake, clean, and decorate with "joy" being evident in it because if you lose your joy, you lose your strength. Iow, how strong of a woman or wife you are, is evident in how joyously you decorate your home for the holidays.

I found this soooo insulting on a number of levels. First, the sexist idea that women and women alone are responsible for the joy in their home and in their children. I'm sorry, but in my world where the husband is the "head" it means that the husband is responsible for the "tone" of the family. Indeed, IDay sets a peaceful and kind home, a place where it's safe to be vulnerable when there is no joy and where there are real-life struggles. Be a man, Mr. Cameron, and stop putting your responsibility onto your wife...it is not up to her to set the tone in the family.

Second, I am offended at the idea that my joy will come out in how clean and decorated my home is this Christmas, and that I should invite all kinds of people into my home to show it off. Mr. Cameron is obviously oblivious to the millions of people who have all the joy in the world but no decorations for their home - or those who decorate with all new decorations but who are grieving the death of a family member this year. He is obviously oblivious to those who are using the same dollar store decorations they purchased 8 years ago because they can't afford anything new, and are struggling to just find enough money for a turkey sandwich this Christmas. He is obviously oblivious to those who, no matter how hard they try, have lost all hope and need antidepressants just to make it through the day. Get real, Mr. Cameron....you have no idea what real life is like.

Third, I am extremely offended that he is making a show about saving Christmas - addressing the commercialization of Christmas, but he is doing it at Christmas time....in essence by putting this out, he is doing exactly what he is condemning! Just a little double-minded, hypocritical, etc.

So....IDay's thread is about whether or not Christmas needs saving. This thread is for the feminists to rant and the poor to lament....

All of this is true, but I can't even reach that point of the argument. I can't get past the question, "Why should I, a mother of 16 years, take advice on motherhood from a has-been teen idol who make terrible movies for a living?"

I just don't get the draw. Why would anyone allow this guy to have even a modicum of authority in their lives is beyond me.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

From Seeingeyes:
"All of this is true, but I can't even reach that point of the argument. I can't get past the question, "Why should I, a mother of 16 years, take advice on motherhood from a has-been teen idol who make terrible movies for a living?"

I just don't get the draw. Why would anyone allow this guy to have even a modicum of authority in their lives is beyond me."

Because XY chromosome and because Jesus