Saved from hell

[SeventhValley]

Are evil pagans saved from hell because of the liturgy without specifically being prayed for?

 

[SeventhValley]

?

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, if they are saved it is because Christ rose from the dead. we will only know (if it is our place to know), at the Last Judgment. until then, what happens to pagans is known only to God.

 

[SeventhValley]

I was asking because Maximos said in Mountain of Silence that dead souls with no one to pray for them could be saved from hell by the liturgy when asked why people could be saved from hell by people praying for them specifically just as Elder Pasios saved his elder from hell.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, yeah, because in the Liturgy the Church taps into the death and resurrection of Christ. or, as Fr Sergius here says, the Church incarnates that sacrifice, which is for all.

 

[SeventhValley]

well, yeah, because in the Liturgy the Church taps into the death and resurrection of Christ. or, as Fr Sergius here says, the Church incarnates that sacrifice, which is for all.

So the only way that would work fairly would be if the liturgy saved everyone live and dead(from Cave men to Hitler) correct?

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, God does not override free will. if people wanna stay in hell, God let's them. love is never forced.

 

[SeventhValley]

no, God does not override free will. if people wanna stay in hell, God let's them. love is never forced.

Is'int that like letting a child stay in a campfire till they burn to death? I thought God was a parent.

 

[ArmyMatt]

more like a parent sending a child to his room, telling him to come out when he is sorry, but the kid chooses to stay in there longer than needed because of his own pride or whatever. the misery in hell is self imposed, and should any repent, they would be accepted into paradise.

 

[SeventhValley]

more like a parent sending a child to his room, telling him to come out when he is sorry, but the kid chooses to stay in there longer than needed because of his own pride or whatever. the misery in hell is self imposed, and should any repent, they would be accepted into paradise.

Ok so if God is good he will talk to the kid and repair the relationship, since he knows all it should be a breeze.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, because people don't always wanna listen. if the kid refuses to listen, they stay in the room. if the sinner refuses to repent, he stays in hell.

 

[SeventhValley]

That is where it breaks down... a parent who imprisons his own child for eternity seems worse than the devil. God should be able to convince someone out of hell without forcing them. He did create us so it is his problem.

 

[ArmyMatt]

God imprisons no one. they imprison themselves. they tell God they want nothing to do with Him. if He can convince them without forcing them, they will repent even if at the Last Judgment.

 

[SeventhValley]

Dose God give up on his kids after judgment?

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, He never stops calling out to them. since, however, He is outside of time, He can see those who set themselves against Him so much they will never want anything to do with Him. He does not give up on them, they give up on Him.

 

[SeventhValley]

Well it dose not make sense to me...

Christianity works with my family right now so I will roll with it but I think I have asked all the questions I can ask. Thanks for the answers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

of course it does not make sense, we are all on the wrong side of the Resurrection. once the Last Day happens, it will make sense. does it make sense to me that people would choose hell over heaven? no. but I am not God. He knows what He is doing with us. if there is even the smallest sliver of a chance someone can be saved, God will do everything He can to save that person.

 

[Petros2015]

SeventhValley - Read the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis sometime. Although he was not Orthodox, his vision in the book I think illustrates some of what ArmyMatt was referring to. I have experienced much of it in my own life and soul here on earth. And no, it doesn't make sense but it does happen.

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.”

 

[~Anastasia~]

SeventhValley - Read the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis sometime. Although he was not Orthodox, his vision in the book I think illustrates some of what ArmyMatt was referring to. I have experienced much of it in my own life and soul here on earth. And no, it doesn't make sense but it does happen.

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.”

Ohhhhh, thanks for the reminder. I'm listening to a lecture series on C S Lewis, and in listening to the discussion and quotes, I realized that I REALLY want to re-read that. It's been some years. I was going to go to the library yesterday but never made it out. Thank you!

 

[Petros2015]

yeah it's a great one. You are very welcome