saved by grace or by works

[msortwell]

I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel(10-lost-tribes).

What is the means of atonement for those saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom, as you understand it?

 

[Ligurian]

Apart from the Law, mankind's making it up as they go, using a man-made dictionary.

Making justice into "fairness", by excluding legalism... pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
AKA, "every man did what was right in his own mind"... next step, Psalms 2.

According to God, you can neither know nor do "justice" without keeping the Law.

Genesis 18:18-19 But Abraam shall become a great and populous nation and in him shall all the nations of the earth be blest.[19] For I know that he will order his sons and his house after him, and they will keep the ways of the Lord to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraam all things whatsoever He has spoken to him.

Are Abraham's children lawbreakers? Nope.
But lawbreakers/deniers kill the prophets... and they'll be doing that again.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord your God, and I am not (ἠλλοίωμαι) changed,LXX

James 1:17 the Father of lights, with whom is no (παραλλαγή) variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:1)
parallage = transmutation (of phase or orbit), fickleness: variableness.

Yet in Romans 4 we read:

2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”..To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7“Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven, whose sins are covered.8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”9... We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10In what context was it credited? Was it after his circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before.c11...through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith is useless and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath....Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Similarly in Galatians 3 we read:


7Understand, then, that those who have faith are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith...9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.10All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”

saved by grace:
That's what Paul says to gentiles (and Jews/House of Judah).
_____________
~~~~~~~~~~
_____________

saved by works:
But here's what God says to the 10-lost-tribes/House of Israel:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX (John 12:48-50, John 17:6-8 them)

Genesis 18:18-19 But Abraam shall become a great and populous nation and in him shall all the nations of the earth be blest.[19] For I know that he will order his sons and his house after him and they will keep the ways of the Lord to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraam all things whatsoever He has spoken to him.LXX

Matthew 22:23-32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jeremiah 31:18-20 [9] They went forth with weeping and I will bring them back with consolation, causing them to lodge by the channels of waters in a straight way and they shall not err in it, for I am become a Father to Israel and Ephraim is My first-born. (Matthew 7:13-14)

John 8:39 Ιησους saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
James 2:21-26 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 1:1 our)

 

[Ligurian]

You're quoting Paul's gospel to the gentiles and Jews(3-tribed House of Judah).
That stuff only works on your crowd.

Paul's not the boss of me.



I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel(10-lost-tribes).

Genesis 17:9-14 And God said to Abraam, Thou also shalt fully keep My Covenant, thou and thy seed after thee for their generations.[10] And this [is] the Covenant which thou shalt fully keep between Me and you and between thy seed after thee for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised.[11] And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be for a sign of a Covenant between M and you.[12] And the child of eight days [old] shall be circumcised by you, every male throughout your generations, and [the servant] born in the house and he that is bought with money of every son of a stranger, who is not of thy seed.[13] He that is born in thy house and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and My Covenant shall be on your flesh for an Everlasting Covenant.[14] And the uncircumcised male, who shall not be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin on the eighth day, that soul shall be utterly destroyed from its family, for he has broken My Covenant.LXX

What is the means of atonement for those saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom, as you understand it?

Depends on what you mean by the word "atonement". All the kingdoms of the world were doing that sin-offering thing...

And there are many verses against that entire system:

Psalms 40:6-8 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me, whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.[7] Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning Me.[8] I desired to do Thy will, O My God, and Thy law in the midst of Mine heart.LXX

Psalms 51:16-17 For if thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it: Thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings.[17] Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.LXX

Isaiah 43:22-26 I have not now called thee, O Jacob, neither have I made thee weary, O Israel.[23] Thou hast not brought Me the sheep of thy whole-burnt-offering, neither hast thou glorified Me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with sacrifices, neither have I wearied thee with frankincense.[24] Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices; but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins and in thine iniquities.[25] I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins and I will not remember them.[26] But do thou remember, and let us plead together: Do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Matthew 9:11-13 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto His Disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?[12] But when Ιησους heard that, He said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.[13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (sacrificially-righteous: sin-offering... sarcasm)

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy... (Matthew 18:21-35)

James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.[18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. (Matthew 5:7-9)

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them, for I will be merciful to their iniquities and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

Jeremiah 7:20-23 Therefore thus saith the Lord: Behold, My anger and wrath shall be poured out upon this place and upon the men and upon the cattle, and upon every tree of their field and upon the fruits of the land, and it shall burn and not be quenched.[21] Thus saith the Lord, Gather your whole-burnt-offerings with your meat-offerings and eat flesh.[22] For I spoke not to your fathers and commanded them not in the day wherein I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, concerning whole-burnt-offerings and sacrifice:[23] but I commanded them this thing, saying, Hear ye My voice, and I will be to you a God and ye shall be to Me a people, and walk ye in all My ways which I shall command you that it may be well with you.LXX

Micah 6:6-8 Wherewithal shall I reach the Lord, and lay hold of my God most high? shall I reach Him by whole-burnt-offerings, by calves of a year old?[7] Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? should I give my first-born for ungodliness, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?[8] Has it not been told thee, O man, what is good? or what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God?LXX

 

[msortwell]

Depends on what you mean by the word "atonement". All the kingdoms of the world were doing that sin-offering thing...

And there are many verses against that entire system

What makes a man right before God within the context of the Gospel of the Kingdom?

 

[Ligurian]

Depends on what you mean by the word "atonement". All the kingdoms of the world were doing that sin-offering thing...

And there are many verses against that entire system:

Psalms 40:6-8 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me, whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.[7] Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning Me.[8] I desired to do Thy will, O My God, and Thy law in the midst of Mine heart.LXX

Psalms 51:16-17 For if thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it: Thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings.[17] Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.LXX

Isaiah 43:22-26 I have not now called thee, O Jacob, neither have I made thee weary, O Israel.[23] Thou hast not brought Me the sheep of thy whole-burnt-offering, neither hast thou glorified Me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with sacrifices, neither have I wearied thee with frankincense.[24] Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices; but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins and in thine iniquities.[25] I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins and I will not remember them.[26] But do thou remember, and let us plead together: Do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Matthew 9:11-13 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto His Disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?[12] But when Ιησους heard that, He said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.[13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (sacrificially-righteous: sin-offering... sarcasm)

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy... (Matthew 18:21-35)

James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.[18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. (Matthew 5:7-9)

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them, for I will be merciful to their iniquities and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

Jeremiah 7:20-23 Therefore thus saith the Lord: Behold, My anger and wrath shall be poured out upon this place and upon the men and upon the cattle, and upon every tree of their field and upon the fruits of the land, and it shall burn and not be quenched.[21] Thus saith the Lord, Gather your whole-burnt-offerings with your meat-offerings and eat flesh.[22] For I spoke not to your fathers and commanded them not in the day wherein I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, concerning whole-burnt-offerings and sacrifice:[23] but I commanded them this thing, saying, Hear ye My voice, and I will be to you a God and ye shall be to Me a people, and walk ye in all My ways which I shall command you that it may be well with you.LXX

Micah 6:6-8 Wherewithal shall I reach the Lord, and lay hold of my God most high? shall I reach Him by whole-burnt-offerings, by calves of a year old?[7] Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? should I give my first-born for ungodliness, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?[8] Has it not been told thee, O man, what is good? or what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God?LXX

What makes a man right before God within the context of the Gospel of the Kingdom?

Matthew 5:22-24 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.[23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;[24] Leave there thy gift before the altar and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 18:21-35 So likewise shall My Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon the rock:[25] and the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not, for it was founded upon the rock.

John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX (John 5:43-47, John 12:48-50)

 

[msortwell]

Matthew 5:22-24 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.[23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;[24] Leave there thy gift before the altar and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 18:21-35 So likewise shall My Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon the rock:[25] and the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not, for it was founded upon the rock.

John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX (John 5:43-47, John 12:48-50)

Providing text with which we are all familiar is not answering the question. To answer the question (I.e., How is a man right before God within the context of the Gospel of the Kingdom?) it is necessary that you explain how those Scripture quotes address the question. Am I correct in inferring (based on the highlighted text) that you believe that man under the GOK is right before God if he is obedient to the commands of the promised Prophet, the Messiah?

 

[Ligurian]

Matthew 5:22-24 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.[23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;[24] Leave there thy gift before the altar and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 18:21-35 So likewise shall My Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon the rock:[25] and the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not, for it was founded upon the rock.

John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX (John 5:43-47, John 12:48-50)

Providing text with which we are all familiar is not answering the question. To answer the question (I.e., How is a man right before God within the context of the Gospel of the Kingdom?) it is necessary that you explain how those Scripture quotes address the question. Am I correct in inferring (based on the highlighted text) that you believe that man under the GOK is right before God if he is obedient to the commands of the promised Prophet, the Messiah?

You understand my point, because you've actually noticed the theme behind the text I've made bold.

The Father gave the Son the words that He spoke to His Disciples, to whom He says He came in His Father's name. And because the Father sent the Son only unto these Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, the Son sent His pupils only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, as well. This Gospel of the Kingdom is also the message for the Other Sheep of John 10:16. It is the Father's Gospel, prophesied in Isaiah 52:4-7, and fulfilled in Matthew 4:23 and Matthew 10:5-7 and Matthew 24:14. And because this Reign of Sion's God was prophesied specifically for these same Lost Sheep which were carried away by the Assyrians, it is THE good news to preach in order to find these 10-Lost-Tribes of the House of Israel.

Therefore, the people who claim there is only one gospel seem not to want these Lost Sheep found; but their feeble understanding of the Pauline gospel makes the whole world into the gentile's property... and makes the House of Judah's Jews into gentiles. I don't know if they comprehend the ramifications of their words, or if those words have been taught to them by some Matthew 23:8-10 deniers... but it all has the effect of closing-off this channel that the Father created in order to find the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. And I have asked some of these gentiles what harm it does them, to let the circumcision have their own separate gospel... yet none have answered that question. Instead, they just keep tossing Paul's words at my head as though Saul of Tarsus should be the boss of everyone.

 

[msortwell]

You understand my point, because you've actually noticed the theme behind the text I've made bold.

The Father gave the Son the words that He spoke to His Disciples, to whom He says He came in His Father's name. And because the Father sent the Son only unto these Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, the Son sent His pupils only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, as well. This Gospel of the Kingdom is also the message for the Other Sheep of John 10:16. It is the Father's Gospel, prophesied in Isaiah 52:4-7, and fulfilled in Matthew 4:23 and Matthew 10:5-7 and Matthew 24:14. And because this Reign of Sion's God was prophesied specifically for these same Lost Sheep which were carried away by the Assyrians, it is THE good news to preach in order to find these 10-Lost-Tribes of the House of Israel.

Therefore, the people who claim there is only one gospel seem not to want these Lost Sheep found; but their feeble understanding of the Pauline gospel makes the whole world into the gentile's property... and makes the House of Judah's Jews into gentiles. I don't know if they comprehend the ramifications of their words, or if those words have been taught to them by some Matthew 23:8-10 deniers... but it all has the effect of closing-off this channel that the Father created in order to find the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. And I have asked some of these gentiles what harm it does them, to let the circumcision have their own separate gospel... yet none have answered that question. Instead, they just keep tossing Paul's words at my head as though Saul of Tarsus should be the boss of everyone.

Must this obedience to the commands of the prophet-Messiah be perfect for one to be judged righteous by God?

 

[Ligurian]

Must this obedience to the commands of the prophet-Messiah be perfect for one to be judged righteous by God?

Yes, because Repent + Forgive are built into this Gospel of the Kingdom. It gives us room to grow, and sometimes growing means making mistakes. Some of the sins just go away, never to be done again. Some take time to even recognize as sins... often because they're perversions of that which is intrinsically good.

This Gospel is the fulfillment of "the Sure Mercies of David"... where David's bones ached because of his sin in taking that female who openly bathed where the King could see her... and David repented on his knees and in tears. Did that mean he never took another wife/concubine? It should have, if it didn't. One wife/one husband is the rule. Not one husband and a thousand wives.

But Peter asks how often to forgive, 7 times a day? And the Son answers 7x70 times every day, in Matthew 18. This is what grace for grace means... we have been forgiven in order to forgive. But both people must be like-minded brethren following the same gospel, taught by one shepherd: The Son.

 

[msortwell]

Yes, because Repent + Forgive are built into this Gospel of the Kingdom. It gives us room to grow, and sometimes growing means making mistakes. Some of the sins just go away, never to be done again. Some take time to even recognize as sins... often because they're perversions of that which is intrinsically good.

This Gospel is the fulfillment of "the Sure Mercies of David"... where David's bones ached because of his sin in taking that female who openly bathed where the King could see her... and David repented on his knees and in tears. Did that mean he never took another wife/concubine? It should have, if it didn't. One wife/one husband is the rule. Not one husband and a thousand wives.

But Peter asks how often to forgive, 7 times a day? And the Son answers 7x70 times every day, in Matthew 18. This is what grace for grace means... we have been forgiven in order to forgive. But both people must be like-minded brethren following the same gospel, taught by one shepherd: The Son.

So . . . you are required to achieve perfect obedience, or you do not stand as right before God.

How are sins of the past addressed? Are they forgiven? If so, by what means - upon what basis?

 

[Ligurian]

So . . . you are required to achieve perfect obedience, or you do not stand as right before God.

How are sins of the past addressed? Are they forgiven? If so, by what means - upon what basis?

John 15:13-14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down His life for His friends.[14] Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 11:25-27 Ιησους said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live;[26] and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?[27] She saith unto Him, Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Revelation 12:7-8 And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.KJV

Exodus 12:21-27 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover.[22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... [26] And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service?[27] that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."LXX

Deuteronomy 12:23 Take diligent heed that thou eat no blood, for blood is the life of it; the life shall not be eaten with the flesh.LXX

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.

 

[msortwell]

So . . . you are required to achieve perfect obedience, or you do not stand as right before God.

How are sins of the past addressed? Are they forgiven? If so, by what means - upon what basis?

John 15:13-14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down His life for His friends.[14] Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 11:25-27 Ιησους said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live;[26] and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?[27] She saith unto Him, Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Revelation 12:7-8 And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.KJV

Exodus 12:21-27 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover.[22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... [26] And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service?[27] that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."LXX

Deuteronomy 12:23 Take diligent heed that thou eat no blood, for blood is the life of it; the life shall not be eaten with the flesh.LXX

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Please answer the question regarding the atonement for past sins.

 

[Ligurian]

Please answer the question regarding the atonement for past sins.

The answer depends on the person.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.[40] And [some] of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, "Are we blind also?"[41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see," therefore your sin remaineth.
(Matthew 13:13-15, Matthew 15:12-14)

Matthew 4:12-17 Now when Ιησους had heard that John was cast into prison He departed into Galilee.[13] And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:[14] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying:[15] The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations;[16] the people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Ιησους began to preach and to say: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
(Matthew 13:10-12, Matthew 13:16-17)

_________________________
The Passover Lamb of God

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head and gave up the ghost.KJV

Exodus 12:21-27 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover.[22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door, but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning.[23] And the Lord shall pass by to smite the Egyptians, and shall see the blood upon the lintel and upon both the door-posts, and the Lord shall pass by the door and shall not suffer the destroyer to enter into your houses to smite you.[24] And keep ye this thing as an ordinance for thyself and for thy children for ever.[25] And if ye should enter into the land, which the Lord shall give you, as he has spoken, keep this service.[26] And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service?[27] that ye shall say to them, This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses.
Exodus 12:43-48 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, This is the law of the passover: no stranger shall eat of it.[44] And every slave or servant bought with money--him thou shalt circumcise and then shall he eat of it.[45] A sojourner or hireling shall not eat of it.[46] In one house shall it be eaten, and ye shall not carry of the flesh out from the house, and a bone of it ye shall not break.[47] All the congregation of the children of Israel shall keep it.[48] And if any proselyte shall come to you to keep the passover to the Lord, thou shalt circumcise every male of him, and then shall he approach to sacrifice it, and he shall be even as the original inhabitant of the land; every (απερίτμητος) uncircumcised one shall not eat of it.LXX

 

[msortwell]

Please answer the question regarding the atonement for past sins.

The answer depends on the person.

The means of atonement for past sins for those under the Gospel of the Kingdom varies based upon a person's partcular circumstance? Please provide some particular examples, so that we can understand your position.

Again, quoting Scriptures, with which we are all familiar, does not answer the question. We need you to provide explanations of how those particular texts should be understood - and how it is that this understanding supports the conclusion regarding how the past sins of you and yours are forgiven.

 

[Ligurian]

The answer depends on the person.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.[40] And [some] of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, "Are we blind also?"[41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see," therefore your sin remaineth.
(Matthew 13:13-15, Matthew 15:12-14)

Matthew 4:12-17 Now when Ιησους had heard that John was cast into prison He departed into Galilee.[13] And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:[14] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying:[15] The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations;[16] the people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Ιησους began to preach and to say: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
(Matthew 13:10-12, Matthew 13:16-17)

_________________________
The Passover Lamb of God

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head and gave up the ghost.KJV

Exodus 12:21-27 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover.[22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door, but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning.[23] And the Lord shall pass by to smite the Egyptians, and shall see the blood upon the lintel and upon both the door-posts, and the Lord shall pass by the door and shall not suffer the destroyer to enter into your houses to smite you.[24] And keep ye this thing as an ordinance for thyself and for thy children for ever.[25] And if ye should enter into the land, which the Lord shall give you, as he has spoken, keep this service.[26] And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service?[27] that ye shall say to them, This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses.
Exodus 12:43-48 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, This is the law of the passover: no stranger shall eat of it.[44] And every slave or servant bought with money--him thou shalt circumcise and then shall he eat of it.[45] A sojourner or hireling shall not eat of it.[46] In one house shall it be eaten, and ye shall not carry of the flesh out from the house, and a bone of it ye shall not break.[47] All the congregation of the children of Israel shall keep it.[48] And if any proselyte shall come to you to keep the passover to the Lord, thou shalt circumcise every male of him, and then shall he approach to sacrifice it, and he shall be even as the original inhabitant of the land; every (απερίτμητος) uncircumcised one shall not eat of it.LXX

The means of atonement for past sins for those under the Gospel of the Kingdom varies based upon a person's partcular circumstance? Please provide some particular examples, so that we can understand your position.

Again, quoting Scriptures, with which we are all familiar, does not answer the question. We need you to provide explanations of how those particular texts should be understood - and how it is that this understanding supports the conclusion regarding how the past sins of you and yours are forgiven.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.[40] And [some] of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, "Are we blind also?"[41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see," therefore your sin remaineth.

The Old Blind were living in darkness in Galilee, until the light found them... and they were taught the Sermon on the Mount... which came from the Father according to Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and John 17:6-8. They were already looking for the Son, in John 1:35. The Galilaeans received Him in John 4:45...

The New Blind are the Pharisees... what else can John 9:39-41 mean? And they're called "blind guides" often enough that there's no misunderstanding.

Now... the Day of Atonement is NOT in the Spring. But the focus has been on the Day of Atonement as if that's what God wants... even though there are good and solid reasons for thinking the Prophets must have been right, and they were killed for saying it... and so the focus pretends that the one REAL festival represents the not-so-real other one. While the clear teachings of "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" et al, withers on the vine.

So... let ME ask YOU a question: Without the Law, where is the need for Mercy?

 

[msortwell]

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.[40] And [some] of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, "Are we blind also?"[41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see," therefore your sin remaineth.

The Old Blind were living in darkness in Galilee, until the light found them... and they were taught the Sermon on the Mount... which came from the Father according to Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and John 17:6-8. They were already looking for the Son, in John 1:35. The Galilaeans received Him in John 4:45...

The New Blind are the Pharisees... what else can John 9:39-41 mean? And they're called "blind guides" often enough that there's no misunderstanding.

Now... the Day of Atonement is NOT in the Spring. But the focus has been on the Day of Atonement as if that's what God wants... even though there are good and solid reasons for thinking the Prophets must have been right, and they were killed for saying it... and so the focus pretends that the one REAL festival represents the not-so-real other one. While the clear teachings of "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" et al, withers on the vine.

So... let ME ask YOU a question: Without the Law, where is the need for Mercy?

I am sorry, but you did not answer my question. Before one achieves the sinless perfection you say is needed to be right with God in accordance with the GOK, that person sinned - in what way are those sins addressed under the GOK?

Regarding your question to me . . . Absent law that God establishes as applicable to a person, there can be no transgression by that person and mercy has no application (as it relates to being judged righteous by God).

 

[Ligurian]

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.[40] And [some] of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, "Are we blind also?"[41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see," therefore your sin remaineth.

The Old Blind were living in darkness in Galilee, until the light found them... and they were taught the Sermon on the Mount... which came from the Father according to Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and John 17:6-8. They were already looking for the Son, in John 1:35. The Galilaeans received Him in John 4:45...

The New Blind are the Pharisees... what else can John 9:39-41 mean? And they're called "blind guides" often enough that there's no misunderstanding.

Now... the Day of Atonement is NOT in the Spring. But the focus has been on the Day of Atonement as if that's what God wants... even though there are good and solid reasons for thinking the Prophets must have been right, and they were killed for saying it... and so the focus pretends that the one REAL festival represents the not-so-real other one. While the clear teachings of "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" et al, withers on the vine.

So... let ME ask YOU a question: Without the Law, where is the need for Mercy?

I am sorry, but you did not answer my question. Before one achieves the sinless perfection you say is needed to be right with God in accordance with the GOK, that person sinned - in what way are those sins addressed under the GOK?

Regarding your question to me . . . Absent law that God establishes as applicable to a person, there can be no transgression by that person and mercy has no application (as it relates to being judged righteous by God).

Repentance and forgiveness are built into the Kingdom Law.

If you were blind = didn't know the law according to God... then you would be guilt-free.
Once you have that knowledge, THEN you are accountable... as you've said.


Matthew 9:35-38 And Ιησους went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.[36] But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.[37] Then saith He unto His Disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;[38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He will send forth labourers into His harvest.

So the Lord of the harvest sends the 12 Disciples into the harvest to gather the fruits of the Kingdom of God, in Matthew 10. Apparently, the 12 Disciples are a type of these shepherds:

Jeremiah 3:15 and I will give you shepherds after My heart, and they shall certainly tend you with knowledge.LXX

But the Pharisees said they saw, and therefore claimed they knew the law... and became blind... because they knew and didn't keep the law. But instead, they taught the doctrines of men as commandments: their interpretation changed the plain meanings, adding leaven to the words of God, and making the Law of none effect. (Matthew 15:3-9, Isaiah 29:13-14.LXX, He will remove them.)

 

[msortwell]

If you were blind = didn't know the law according to God... then you would be guilt-free.
Once you have that knowledge, THEN you are accountable... as you've said.

Ahhh . . . No, I did not say that.

 

[Ligurian]

I am sorry, but you did not answer my question. Before one achieves the sinless perfection you say is needed to be right with God in accordance with the GOK, that person sinned - in what way are those sins addressed under the GOK?

Regarding your question to me . . . Absent law that God establishes as applicable to a person, there can be no transgression by that person and mercy has no application (as it relates to being judged righteous by God).

Repentance and forgiveness are built into the Kingdom Law.

If you were blind = didn't know the law according to God... then you would be guilt-free.
Once you have that knowledge, THEN you are accountable... as you've said.


Matthew 9:35-38 And Ιησους went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.[36] But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.[37] Then saith He unto His Disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;[38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He will send forth labourers into His harvest.

So the Lord of the harvest sends the 12 Disciples into the harvest to gather the fruits of the Kingdom of God, in Matthew 10. Apparently, the 12 Disciples are a type of these shepherds:

Jeremiah 3:15 and I will give you shepherds after My heart, and they shall certainly tend you with knowledge.LXX

But the Pharisees said they saw, and therefore claimed they knew the law... and became blind... because they knew and didn't keep the law. But instead, they taught the doctrines of men as commandments: their interpretation changed the plain meanings, adding leaven to the words of God, and making the Law of none effect. (Matthew 15:3-9, Isaiah 29:13-14.LXX, He will remove them.)

Ahhh . . . No, I did not say that.

You said: "Absent law that God establishes as applicable to a person, there can be no transgression by that person and mercy has no application (as it relates to being judged righteous by God)."

I said: "If you were blind = didn't know the law according to God... then you would be guilt-free. Once you have that knowledge, THEN you are accountable... as you've said."

Then you're saying that gentiles are not accountable for keeping the Law that was never given to them. Is that correct?

 

[msortwell]

You said: "Absent law that God establishes as applicable to a person, there can be no transgression by that person and mercy has no application (as it relates to being judged righteous by God)."

I said: "If you were blind = didn't know the law according to God... then you would be guilt-free. Once you have that knowledge, THEN you are accountable... as you've said."

Then you're saying that gentiles are not accountable for keeping the Law that was never given to them. Is that correct?

I wrote of a law that God ESTABLISHES AS APPLICABLE to a person/people under consideration.

You wrote of law GIVEN TO a people under consideration.

These two are not synonymous.