Saved by Faith alone?

[Van]

Of Course, nothing could match up to a personal view. That is why nothing can logically be against your view and no one has access to it. It is private. That is what makes it private. There is nothing that I have stated that has not been beleived by millions since the very beginning.

I do not think millions have accepted that Jesus had two spirits, that he was part God and part man.

On this particular issue there was no difference even from the Roman Catholics up to the Council of Trent. You view lacks the continuity of Scripture as was given, which is quite obvious.

What issue? We are saved by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone.
You have no idea what folks believed from the beginning, because scripture tells us that and you do not accept it. You suggest portions of scripture be tossed.

Yes, my nifty little NASB contains a very good version of the God's word.

My view is consistent with all scriptures, you pick and choose, saying this or that should be tossed.

You have defined the incarnation saying Jesus had two Spirits, this was branded as heresy in 431.
You have no idea what the incarnation means, just as you have no idea what I think it means. All you know is Jesus had two spirits and that is heresy. Folks, for those curious, the incarnation is defined by the statement, the Word became flesh.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

1 thes 5:24 faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.

hebrews 6:18 That by two unchanging things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong comfort, who have fled refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

two truths about God

john 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not judged: but he that believeth not is condemned already......

promise to be judged on earth ..not in heaven if living carnally..

1 cor 11:30For this cause many are weak and sickly[in christian life..not abiding in Christ] among you, and many sleep[physically dead]. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

the corinthians had several things wrong in thre conduct among believers and other things too...

yet where they thrown into hell... no

they were not abiding in 1 cor 11:21 is this love yet God says the are set apart 1 cor 1:2

In 2 cor 12:19-21- 13:1--10 Paul is warning them again if this believer do not walk as the Father talks about them in Christ ... they will be brought home

and in verse 11 be of good comfort...why....

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, saved by faith alone. Did this idea start with Luther? Or did Luther find this idea in Romans chapter 4? Lets see if we can understand Romans 4:16 which says: "For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

To capture the idea, lets look at two more versions, first the ESV:
"16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, "

And finally lets look at YLT:
16Because of this [it is] of faith, that [it may be] according to grace, for the promise being sure to all the seed, not to that which [is] of the law only, but also to that which [is] of the faith of Abraham,"

Paul is saying it must be by faith, otherwise salvation could not be according to grace. If it was by works, or if faith was considered a work of merit, then it could not be by grace. So rather than solving the problem by saying the faith is given to us, Paul says it is not a work of merit. Clearly the folks in Acts 10:44 did not works of merit, they simply believed and were indwelt which signals they were spiritually baptized into Christ.

If we look back at the key verse for the "Faith alone" view, Romans 4:5, we see this: But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. Clearly "believing" is not a work in Paul's eyes, because faith is trusting in the work of Christ and not in ourselves, and this act is not righteous, it earns no merit, and therefore is consistent with grace because God credits our faith as righteousness. If it were a gift, God would not need to credit it as righteousness. Therefore we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone to the glory of God alone.

 

[sojourner]

Brother In Christ,

[I Cor 1:26-29[/quote]
1:26 This is what St Chrysostom stated: Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 5.2
"The man who is wise according to the standard of this world is really very foolish, because he will not cast away his corrupt teaching. A little learning is a dangerous thing, because it makes those who have it unwilling to learn more. The unlearned are more open to conviction, because they ae not so foolish as to think that they are wise.

1:27 Ambrose in his commentaries on Corinthians 1:27.
"The two most "foolish things of the world" are in particular the virgin birth of Christ and the resurrection from the dead. The wise are confounded because they see that what a few of them deny, the many profess to be true.

1:28 Ambrose Commentary on Paul's Epistles.
God chose ignoble and contemptible thins to exalt. It is not that they are really ingnoble and contemptible; this is how the world sees them. By believing in Christ they have overturned worldly reasoning.

1:29 Chrysostom: Epistles of Paul to the Cor 5.3
"God did not just choose the unlearned, but also the needy, the contemptible and the obsure, in order to humble those in high places.

[Rom 3:23[/quote] In Context Paul is describing what the coming of Christ provided. Christ was manifesting the Righteousness of God. This divine benevolence is experienced through faith in Jesus Christ. By faith in accepting the Gospel as given and being baptised, living asa deisciple of Jesus, one can expericne God's kindness and salvation. Thus it is to all who have faith without any distinction between Jew and Gentile. Then verse 23 is really a parenthetical statment. For all have sinned and lack the glory of God. All have equally gone astray like lost sheep, living as fallen men in a fallen world. There was no distinction between Jew and Gentile in this fallen state, thus there should be no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Salvation. All are justified as a gift by His Grace.
This text again has nothing to do specifically with the salvation of man since it is referencing the redemption of mankind. It is because of this that man by faith can believe and enter inot a relationship with Christ.

so how do you purpose that an ungodly man that believed ...do a good work for salvation...

By faith.

So God is not faithful to his word..is that what you are saying according to Phil 1:6

It has nothing to do with God. God is not the one we need to worry about being either faithful or unfaithful. It is us that has the problem of sin and a fallen nature, living in a fallen world. We can only exist if we are IN Christ. But being and remaining there is of our choice.

2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful , yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.

Again, God is not the problem. He will continually call all men to repentance. Only when they persist in their stubborness and obstinance will He leave and for the believer the same. If we quench the Spirit, removing Him, He will oblige man. Then we need to be concerned about the other side of the coin because all the conditions are also promises. If we deny Him, He will deny us. He cannot deny Himself. Meaning, His promises will prevail

john 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not judged: but he that beklieveth not is condemned already......

promise we believe..not judged in heaven.. 1 cor 11:30-32

Yes, but the questions is? do you beleive? Believing is an active, lifelong venture. It is living IN Christ. It is not just a mental attitude that we believe then we passively ride along In Christ. It is a work, and endurance run, to abide. That is the work of the Holy Spirit as long as we permit Him to work IN us.

its all a promise of God getting the believer to abide ... in God...

Yes.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

It seems every time you cannot explain a point outside of your personal view you restort to innuendo, false statements to take the focus off that fact. You have shown absolutely nothing to show that anyone other than you believe as you do. Twice I gave you the opportunity to show that even some protestants have always believed as you do, linking it to the reformation, but you have failed to do so.
Private interpretation is condemned in scripture itself. The Gospel has been universal, has been for all and to all from the beginning. It is obvious that most if not all of your interpretation does not have any authenticity to it has having been believed by anyone. Until you can show that even some protestants believe exactly as you do, it is private. But more importantly, it cannot be claimed as the Gospel once given as it has no history whatsoever prior to the reformation, if indeed you can get that far back.
That you choose to so believe cannot be questioned. There are many such new forms of faith in existance today by many persons and groups. But to claim it as original you will need to show a consistancy throughout history from the beginning. That you have failed to show.
Christianity was not proclaimed throughout the world as a secret and nobody knew what the other believed. That is why is it so easy to see false teaching respective of the Truth once given. It is universal, consistant, and shows continuance in that consistancy from the beginning, believed by all since the beginning.
That is the authentic proof in history of the work of the Holy Spirit in preserving His Church and in preserving the Gospel once given for all.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

1 thes 5:24 faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.

hebrews 6:18 That by two unchanging things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong comfort, who have fled refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

two truths about God

john 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not judged: but he that believeth not is condemned already......

promise to be judged on earth ..not in heaven if living carnally..

1 cor 11:30For this cause many are weak and sickly[in christian life..not abiding in Christ] among you, and many sleep[physically dead]. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

the corinthians had several things wrong in thre conduct among believers and other things too...

yet where they thrown into hell... no

they were not abiding in 1 cor 11:21 is this love yet God says the are set apart 1 cor 1:2

In 2 cor 12:19-21- 13:1--10 Paul is warning them again if this believer do not walk as the Father talks about them in Christ ... they will be brought home

and in verse 11 be of good comfort...why....

 

[Van]

It seems every time you cannot explain a point outside of your personal view you restort to innuendo, false statements to take the focus off that fact. You have shown absolutely nothing to show that anyone other than you believe as you do. Twice I gave you the opportunity to show that even some protestants have always believed as you do, linking it to the reformation, but you have failed to do so.
Private interpretation is condemned in scripture itself.

Pure twaddle, a slander, a smear, ad homenins spewed by a troll.
For example I have indicated Luther believed in Faith alone and not in works.

To claim my view represents the NT view, I do not, repeat do not, need to address the views down through Church history, only that it is consistent with the NT intended message of the inspired authors.

Returning to topic, saved by faith alone. Did this idea start with Luther? Or did Luther find this idea in Romans chapter 4? Lets see if we can understand Romans 4:16 which says: "For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Paul is saying it must be by faith, otherwise salvation could not be according to grace. If it was by works, or if faith was considered a work of merit, then it could not be by grace. So rather than solving the problem by saying the faith is given to us, Paul says it is not a work of merit. Clearly the folks in Acts 10:44 did not do works of merit, they simply believed and were indwelt which signals they were spiritually baptized into Christ.

If we look back at the key verse for the "Faith alone" view, Romans 4:5, we see this: But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. Clearly "believing" is not a work in Paul's eyes, because faith is trusting in the work of Christ and not in ourselves, and this act is not righteous, it earns no merit, and therefore is consistent with grace because God credits our faith as righteousness. If it were a gift, God would not need to credit it as righteousness. Therefore we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone to the glory of God alone.

 

[sojourner]

Brother In Christ,

1 cor 11:30For this cause many are weak and sickly[in christian life..not abiding in Christ] among you, and many sleep[physically dead]. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
the corinthians had several things wrong in thre conduct among believers and other things too...
yet where they thrown into hell... no

Yes, many were not abiding IN Christ. You cannot be saved outside of Christ. The fact that they were eating and drinking the cup unworthily, they became sick and some died. When one eats unworthily, they are eating and drinking to their condemnation. To say that they did not go to heaven or heaven is not for us to say. The warning and the result of taking the Eucharist unworthily is condemnation.
But, if we judge ourselves, and seek forgiveness of our trespasses we will not be judged by God in this life nor the next. But if we do not judge ourselves He will chasten us and if we persist and resist that chastening, we will also be condemned. Verse 32.
Again, very obvious, Paul is speaking to the Church, believers. It is very obvious that some were not saved and that if we fail to heed warnings, chastisement, and resist the Holy Spirit we do so to our condemnation. So, believers do and can fall from Grace.

the corinthians had several things wrong in thre conduct among believers and other things too... yet where they thrown into hell... no

How do you know what their judgement was? Anyone can repent in this life and for all we know everyone to whom Paul was speaking repented.

they were not abiding in 1 cor 11:21 is this love yet God says the are set apart 1 cor 1:2

First of all, Paul is addressing the Church at large, not individuals, though he does infer that in verse 2. The whole chapter is an exhortation to leave the weaknesses, the faults and keep the faith as he, Paul, had delievered to them prior to this letter. Uses Isreal as an example of apostacy, speaks to particular problems that are in this Church. All it is recognizeing is that we are all sinners and we sin continually. The object is to stay in Christ by sinning less and not overtly. When we do, confess our sins as He is able to forgive and move on ever increasing ones faith and walk, conforming more and more to His Image. Maturity is a growth, not an instant hatching.

In 2 cor 12:19-21- 13:1--10 Paul is warning them again if this believer do not walk as the Father talks about them in Christ ... they will be brought home
and in verse 11 be of good comfort...why....

Severe exhortations. It is serious to be sinning without repentance. Make sure one is not disqualified. Again, beleivers can and do fall away from faith. Paul specifically ask to test to be sure you are in the faith.
I don't see anywhere of "they will be brought home" here.
Be of good comfort, that Christ died for you. Live in Peace, harmony and work out ones salvation with faith, love and hope. The greatest is love.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Pure twaddle, a slander, a smear, ad homenins spewed by a troll.
For example I have indicated Luther believed in Faith alone and not in works.

OK, Van, I apologize, you did mention Luther. But saying just that does not say much. All the debate I hear regarding what Luther meant and many individuals disagreeing with Him, it does not seem he got it right either.

To claim my view represents the NT view, I do not, repeat do not, need to address the views down through Church history, only that it is consistent with the NT intended message of the inspired authors.

You describe yourself well.
Never said you needed to address the views through Church History. However, by saying "only that it is consistant with the NT intended message of the inspired authors, you fail to do so. You can claim it as you desire, interpret it as you desire but you cannot claim, at least you have not shown that it is in fact the entended meaning. The intended meanings have been written, rewritten, explained, volumonously since the first century by Christians since that first century and they do not align with your view. All you have proven is your interpretation. It has absolutely nothing to do with the apostles or what they meant or intended. We know what they intended. It was told to millions, believed, accepted and handed down from generation to generation. That is the Gospel universal. Jude 3. Unless you can show that, it is simply your view.
And Luther's for that matter.
The fact that his particular view is called Lutheranism, speaks volumes of its authenticity.

 

[Van]

We are saved by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone. While many may differ as to whether the faith is ours or a gift, most protestants will agree in general with the statement. Not just Lutherns. We got the Baptists and the a goodly portion of the evangelicals. The works based view of salvation does not mesh with scripture, particulary Romans 4:5.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

The works based view of salvation does not mesh with scripture, particulary Romans 4:5

The word "salvation" is an inclusive term of the whole plan of salvation. It is because the goal of Christ's work is the salvation of man which was all along the purpose of his creation.

But Romans 4:5 is not even addressing the specific, the salvation of man. It is referring to redemption and the fact that we are JUSTIFIED by faith. We were unable to perform by any kind of works our redemption. But what follows is all about the salvation of man which is done as a believer. It is after all, Van, Living the Gospel. It is living In Christ. This is in no shape or form a passive living. We are not simply riding along on a simple mental ascent of faith. That merely justifies us and gets us into a relationship which is the whole purpose of Christ's redeeming work.
We are not saved on knowledge but in the living.
You are misquoting the verse. It is SAVED by Grace, THROUGH FAITH. We are not saved by faith.

 

[Van]

Therefore we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone to the glory of God alone.

You are misquoting the verse. It is SAVED by Grace, THROUGH FAITH. We are not saved by faith.

By the numbers, no verse was referenced that I was misquoting.
No quote was provided which showed I had put something in quote marks, indicating I was quoting scripture.
Three, the quote I provided does indeed say "saved by grace" and "through faith", so the assertion I said we are saved by faith is to be kind a distortion of my position.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

By the numbers, no verse was referenced that I was misquoting.

Eph 2:8,

True Van, but if one paraphrases it, it should be much more accurate than the way you do with all the alones which is unscriptural to begin with. See James 2:24. But I suppose it fits your view, which is OK.
It is not a distortion of your position at all. It is simply the correct way to paraphrase it. After all, it is your position, even though it may not be the Gospel once given. I'm just pointing out the way it should be paraphrased or at least quoted to keep from misleading and stating it inaccurately.

 

[Van]

More falsehoods, more lies, more trolling. It it not my position that we are saved by faith alone. My position is we are saved by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone. Pay no attention to the troll who simply posts falsehoods in an effort to frustrate others. Through faith alone means we are not saved through works and faith. Romans 4:5 supports my position. Acts 10:44 shows folks are saved through their faith alone, they did no works such as water baptism.

You mentioned "redemption" and indicated redemption was the subject of Romans 4:5 rather than salvation. But since you use these terms for various things, nothing can be made of what you say. Did you mean the subject of Romans 4:5 was general redemption as I define the term?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

amen