Saved by Faith alone?

[sojourner]

Van,

God accepts us based on our faith and therefore the works that flow or would flow from our faith are not necessary for justification, being placed in Christ and covered with His blood and indwelt, just as Acts 10:44 shows.

Why do you give the correct explanation, then in summary always contradict yourself?

God does accept us by our faith. That faith is works. It is the works that Grace works with through our faith. If we have no works of faith, then we are not IN Christ. We are not being saved.
If we had faith for many years, and then for whatever reason departed, no longer desired to be IN Christ, we will have lost faith, discontinued the relationship with Christ, are not being saved. We would no longer be justified. You cannot separate justification and active working out of that faith. No one, without exception will enter upon death if they are not IN Christ, have a working faith IN Christ.

Or, one who is disobedient, unfaithful, willingly sinning, will not be saved, no matter if they were justified 50 years before as per your view.

 

[Van]

Faith is not works, works flow from faith and demonstrate that the faith is alive. But the folks in Acts 10:44 had done no works and were spiritually baptized into Christ and indwelt. Therefore works only indicates the quality of the faith God accepts.

There are three parts to salvation, positional sanctification where we are removed from being spiritually "in Adam" and placed spiritually "in Christ. When scripture refers to salvation is the past tense concernig believers, this is what is in view. This salvation saves us from the penalty of sin, separation from God and punishment for our deeds.

Once "in Christ" we enter what is termed "process sanctification" where we are saved from the power of sin, we can walk by the spirit, rest on minds on the indwelt Spirit of Christ, and follow our Lord, stumbling at times, but with our eyes on the prize. During this phase we do ministry and earn rewards is our ministry is built on the foundation of Christ and when tested our results pass the test of fire and do not burn up like chaff.
When scripture indicates we can lose our salvation, it is the loss of the full blessings of salvation that we lose during process sanctification. So while we may stumble because our walk is not protected, we will repent and continue to strive to follow Christ because our faith in Christ is protected. Folks that turn their backs on Christ were never saved, their faith never protected and on that day, Christ will not say, I knew you once but you walked away; No Christ will say I never knew you who practice lawlessness.

The third part of salvation is when we are bodily resurrected, our predestined adoption as sons because we are "in Christ.

Soteriology 101

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Faith is not works, works flow from faith and demonstrate that the faith is alive. But the folks in Acts 10:44 had done no works and were spiritually baptized into Christ and indwelt. Therefore works only indicates the quality of the faith God accepts

The interconnection between faith and works is such that they cannot be separated. Thus one can say that faith IS works. You are correct that works flows from faith. If no works, no faith. If works, then faith.
The folks in Acts 10:44 as well as the example of Cornelius, is that they accepted Christ through their faith. Following that belief or acceptance is repentance/baptism. If one is not baptised, if one does not follow with repentance their faith is non-existant. God did not accept them of their faith alone, but by the actions of that faith. And subsequent actions of that faith is what maintains their relationship IN Christ.
One is not indwelt until and unless one is baptised both by water and the Spirit. The Spirit is called Chrismation.
There is only one quality of faith, and active faith.

There are three parts to salvation, positional sanctification where we are removed from being spiritually "in Adam" and placed spiritually "in Christ. When scripture refers to salvation is the past tense concernig believers, this is what is in view. This salvation saves us from the penalty of sin, separation from God and punishment for our deeds.

This statement is confusing. You have mixed and switched Christ's work, man's response and also the purpose of man with that of Christ's work as well.
There is no such thing as positional sanctification. First we were never spiritually "in Adam". It is because of the judgement against Adam that a spiritual union with God was impossible. We were under the judgement of Adam, death thus sin. This is what denied our spiritual union. Christ corrected this error, the judgement so that man could again be in Union which is the purpose of man's existance, working with God.
When Scripture refers to the past tense of being saved, it is speaking of redemption, atonement, reconciliation, propitiation, justification, all which is done by Christ's work on the Cross. There is no such thing as "past tense for believers". It is past tense for mankind, but always in the present for believers. We are always IN FAITH, IN CHRIST, always being saved until our deaths. Whatever position we are then IN determines our final place, salvation or damnation.

Once "in Christ" we enter what is termed "process sanctification" where we are saved from the power of sin, we can walk by the spirit, rest on minds on the indwelt Spirit of Christ, and follow our Lord, stumbling at times, but with our eyes on the prize. During this phase we do ministry and earn rewards is our ministry is built on the foundation of Christ and when tested our results pass the test of fire and do not burn up like chaff.
When scripture indicates we can lose our salvation, it is the loss of the full blessings of salvation that we lose during process sanctification. So while we may stumble because our walk is not protected, we will repent and continue to strive to follow Christ because our faith in Christ is protected. Folks that turn their backs on Christ were never saved, their faith never protected and on that day, Christ will not say, I knew you once but you walked away; No Christ will say I never knew you who practice lawlessness.

this so-called "process sanctification" is salvation. It is not the result of, but is. If we do not maintain this walk we do not have faith. Faithlessness, of disbelief is not salvation. You are not being saved if you fall from fellowship (relationship) You cannot be saved outside of Christ. Yes, we do stumble, every day, but that is why repentance is necessary to remain IN Christ. To remain reconciled to Him. Without that reconciliation, we do not remain IN Christ and will not be saved. There is absolutely no text in scripture that will say that one is saved even though they are no longer IN Christ. The data dump as you refer to it, was only a very small portion of all the text that speak to the keeping of ones faith. Without faith one is not being saved.
Your term "full blessing" of salvation IS CHRIST. One does not simply lose rewards by being NOT IN CHRIST, but you lose Christ Himself.

Folks to who turn their backs on Christ have fallen from Grace, from being IN Christ. It has nothing to do with them losing salvation, on one has it during their liftetime. That is why we say we are "being saved" It is always present tense until the moment of death. We lose faith, not salvation. If we lose faith and remain unfaithful or unrepentant we will not be saved, will not inherit eternal life WITH CHRIST.

The third part of salvation is when we are bodily resurrected, our predestined adoption as sons because we are "in Christ

We all will be resurrected. We all will face judgement. Some to eternal life WITH Christ, other APART from Christ.

Soteriology 101

I'll stick with soteriology of Scripture, you can stick with Soterilogy 101 - Vanism.

 

[Van]

Lets take Sojo's bogus assertions one at a time.

Thus one can say that faith IS works.

Faith is not works. Faith is a mental attitude, our core belief in the gospel of Christ. Faithfulness flows from our faith - if our faith is from our heart - but if our faith is superficial, the quality of our belief or faith will not be accepted by God. But He accepts our faith based on His knowledge of our heart, and not based on our demonstration of our faith. Yes, He sometimes tests folks to provide an illustration of heart-felf faith, such as Abraham, but normally He simply searches our hearts. The folks in Acts 10:44, had not moved from their chairs, while still sitting, without doing anything such as water baptism, they were indwelt, demonstrating we are saved by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone.

First we were never spiritually "in Adam".

The concept of positional sanctification, God taking us out of being "in Adam" and placing us "in Christ" is well accepted by Protestant Christians and is based on scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:22 NASB, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

Similarly Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates positional sanctification, being placed in Christ and being regenerated, made alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved. Born again believers are in Christ, set apart from the many "in Adam". When we are spiritually baptized into Christ we are changed and we arise in Christ a new creation, created for good works. So when our position is changed, from being in Adam to being in Christ we are changed, we undergo the circumcision done without hands, we are given a new heart, a clear conscience, and our faith is protected. We are covered by the blood of the lamb and personally saved from the wrath of God.

Sojo believes a born again believer can lose his faith, that God does not protect Him unto salvation, he disregards 1 Peter 1:3-5.

Your term "full blessing" of salvation IS CHRIST. One does not simply lose rewards by being NOT IN CHRIST, but you lose Christ Himself.

Yet another misrepresention of my position and scripture. During our walk with Christ, we are with Christ because we are "in Christ." Process Sanctification does not happen unless we are first placed in Christ and changed such that we are a new creation. Once altered by God, we have no power to uncreate ourselves and return to the old creation. But during our walk we can stumble and be sidetracked such that our ministry to the Lord nets few or no rewards, in effect we build with straw that is burnt up when tested with fire. But this does not alter our positional sanctification. We escape, as one escaping from a fire but bringing nothing, no rewards, with us. So this is a loss of the full blessings of salvation, but not a loss of eternal life.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Faith is not works. Faith is a mental attitude, our core belief in the gospel of Christ. Faithfulness flows from our faith - if our faith is from our heart - but if our faith is superficial, the quality of our belief or faith will not be accepted by God.

God accepts our faith period. There is not a single soul that begins or upon immediate mental faith is saved finitely as if they have matured in an instant.
The example of Christ in speaking with Nicodemus regarding a spiritual renewal is as applicable to a physical one as well. No baby is considered mature. You do not have a mature faith at the beginning.
The parable of the sower is again a very apt illustration. Other than the first category with is the gospel given to all men and some flat out refuse, all the rest had faith. But the quality is not in question. The quality is borne out in life. Is it going to mature. Is it going to buckle under the first trial. Will it endure.
To start, your definition of faith is unscriptural. Faith may be mental for a moment, but that is the precise difference between that of Satan and a believer. A believer acts on his faith. It is always an active faith. If it does die, or becomes lax or is extinquished we are no longer being saved.

The folks in Acts 10:44, had not moved from their chairs, while still sitting, without doing anything such as water baptism, they were indwelt, demonstrating we are saved by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone.

In that one verse, but that verse also does not say what you summarize in your statement. It takes other texts which do show precisely what God accepts as faith. It is only two verse later that they do get out of those chairs. It is immediately after Peters sermon that 3000 souls were baptised. It is after the jailer believes and Pual goes to his home that he and his family is baptised.
That is the problem with your theology, Van, It is versism. You take one verse and establish a whole plan of salvation from it. Same with OSAS. You take about 6 or 7 verses which are promises of God only to man, make them absolute and ignore all the conditional verses that speak of man's obligation to those same promises.
Again, scripturally as it has historically been believed does not align with your personal interpretation.

The concept of positional sanctification, God taking us out of being "in Adam" and placing us "in Christ" is well accepted by Protestant Christians and is based on scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:22 NASB, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

This text is not even in the realm of sanctification. Sanctification could not even take place had it not been for this verse. This is redemption, full blown. Yes, God is taking us out of Adam, physically. The "in Adam" was physical death - mortality. We are all made alive through Christ, the Incarnation, the resurrection, the bringing to life of our mortal nature to immortality. It gave man an eternal status in which a relationship with God is only meaninful as it would last beyond this life for an eternity. It also prevented the destruction of man and the universe.
It may be well accepted by Protestant Christians and, Yes, it is based on scripture, as all false teachings are, but it is not the Gospel once given, has been believed since the beginning.

For a person who stated they believe in universal redemption, this statement contradicts that. Just what do you think universal redemption consist.
For example here, are you comparing that only those who believe are in Christ, thus they are the same as in Adam. If so, what happened to all those other people in the world. The ones not saved. Did they not need saving because they did not sin through Adam. All is all. If we all die because of Adam, then the same is true for Christ. We are all made alive. If we are all made alive, then it cannot be spiritual, but physical, which it is and has always been.
Believers are not made alive in Christ. Mankind is made alive so that believers can LIVE IN CHRIST by choosing to believe in Christ.

Ephesians 2:5 is saying the very same thing. It is redemption the (parentheses) is making that emphasis, saved by Grace. Faith is not mentioned here as this was the Work of Christ only. Man is not part of it. Vs 4 introduces that view and vs 6 moves to the believer. A believer cannot be a believer unless redemption occurred. It is the goal that is always in view which is the salvation of man which is the beleiver living a life IN Christ.
In this entire section, vs 1-7 Paul is comparing the two existing kingdoms. That of Satan and Christ. He moves from one to the other in these verses. Vs 8 is the answer of how to get from one to the other. It is all Grace that gets man out of his predictament and then faith that moves us into Christ so we can do vs 10 what we were created to do as human beings. The whole reason why Christ saved mankind.

So when our position is changed, from being in Adam to being in Christ we are changed,

You bet we are. From mortal to immortal. Death to eternal life.

we undergo the circumcision done without hands, we are given a new heart, a clear conscience, and our faith is protected. We are covered by the blood of the lamb and personally saved from the wrath of God.

That is God's promise to man. Where is your promise to God of the same. Is there any text in the Bible that says man can guarantee his end of the relationship? I Pet 1:3-5 is only true with your definition and explanation. But as written it says nothing regarding faith, but says we, as believers, are protected through our faith. Faith is not protected. If that were actually true, then the rest of the Bible is extraneous. You make void the entire NT practically, including the whole Book of James. James is all about living a life in Christ which is salvation. Only 4 books of the NT do not speak about man enduring and keeping his faith.
That is why we are saved through faith, by works. They are inseparable. If you have not one you do not have the other.

Yet another misrepresention of my position and scripture.

It is not a misrepresentation of your view. It is the presentation of what scripture actually has meant regarding this concept of faith and enduring. You have misrepresented scripture, for that I cannot do much.

Once altered by God, we have no power to uncreate ourselves and return to the old creation. But during our walk we can stumble and be sidetracked such that our ministry to the Lord nets few or no rewards, in effect we build with straw that is burnt up when tested with fire. But this does not alter our positional sanctification. We escape, as one escaping from a fire but bringing nothing, no rewards, with us. So this is a loss of the full blessings of salvation, but not a loss of eternal life.

For all the bashing you do against Calvinism, you come to the very same conclusion. You take away man's created obligation, his purpose, the responsibility for which he will answer and place it all upon God. It is God's obligation to keep man from hell. Man will obviously be judged by what God does through him or allows him to do, since man, in your view, cannot lose his salvaiton, no matter what he does in this life. From an earlier post. he is even saved if he loses faith, becomes unfaithful. We gain justification by faith, but we cannot lose justification when we lose faith.
This refining fire to which you refer has to do with works only. It has nothing to do with sin. Yet, sin is what separates man from God. It is our sinning in this life and as believers that we must be on guard against. We should be sinning less and less. When we do sin we need to repent. That is why repentance is a multi-daily occurance. We must stay IN Christ. We must stay reconciled.
You can do all the good works you want but unless they are done IN Christ they mean absolutely nothing. That is why if you lose Christ, all the rewards you seemingly have earned mean nothing.

If you want to show that your view is scriptural, give some historicity for the view. It is somewhat protestant, that is connected to the reformation, but that misses the mark by 1500 years. Did anyone, let alone all beleivers before 1600 beleieve such a thing. If some did, I'm sure we would have been told in writing many times. Yet, I can find none, maybe you can. The Gospel is universal. It is neither personal, nor private, nor does revelation come to individuals. It is the same today as it was when given and history shows that consistancy and continuance.

 

[Van]

God accepts our faith period.

Assertions without support in scripture are meaningless. Anyone can post fiction not representive of scripture. Was the rich young ruler a believer. Yes. But did he hold back from a full blown committment and therefore was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly possessions? Yes. The argument that there is only one level or quality of faith is bogus. How about the guy praying before men, was his belief deep or did he seek the acknowledgement of men. He got all the reward that was due.

Sojo rejects positional sanctification clearly taught by 1 Corinthians 15:22.

The folks in Matthew 13 were enlightened, they had tasted the gospel, but their faith was rootless. They did not believe in their hearts, and therefore they were not spiritually baptized into Christ. They fell away, indicating their faith was not protected.

Faith is defined in scripture folks and it is a mental attitude. It means to completely abandon efforts to earn or sustain our salvation and trust fully in the completed work of Christ. We are to believe in Jesus Christ. Acts 16:30-31.

To repeat, Acts 10:44 demolishes any argument that water baptism is necessary for positional sanctification, they were indwelt before they moved from their chairs. The only thing that happens in water baptism is we get wet and we testify of our Lord and Savior.

Adam's physical body has long since returned to dust, no one is physcially in Adam. But in our sinful state, we are spiritually in Adam, separated from God and predisposed to sin, corrupted just as Adam and Eve were corrupted when Adam sinned. It is a spiritual condition. We are spiritually dead in Adam, and we are made alive in Christ.

I see Sojo dredged up the ol, all in all argument. One more time folks, 1 Corinthians says everybody in Adam, that is all the folks in Adam, die. And it says everybody in Christ, that is all the folks in Christ are made alive.

Next Sojo dredges up the "his view is that of the Apostles" argument. Twaddle.

My view is consistent with James, is based on James and is supported by James.
James 2:5 teaches we are chosen because God keeps His promises to those who love Him. James 2:24 teaches we are saved by faith that would result in faithful service, and not by faith or belief that would not result in faithful service. Hense, the guys in Matthew 13 believed, but their belief was rootless, it would not result in faithful service and therefore God did not spiritually baptize them into Christ and protect their faith.
Just as James teaches.

Again folks, we are not made alive by choosing to believe in Christ, we are made alive when God accepts our faith and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, we are in Christ by God's doing 1 Corinthians 1:30.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Assertions without support in scripture are meaningless. Anyone can post fiction not representive of scripture. Was the rich young ruler a believer. Yes. But did he hold back from a full blown committment and therefore was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly possessions? Yes. The argument that their is only one level or quality of faith is bogus.

You have just showed my point, van. The rich young ruler was a believer. It didn't matter the level or quality as you clearly showed. Yet, he fell, he left, he was not willing to take up his cross and follow Christ completely.The virgins had faith too. They just were not ready when the Master came back. Every single parable is about those who had faith but could not last the duration. The Prodigal is one who had faith, left, and was found again. Believers do that all the time. We are not concerned with those that finally endure. We are concerned with those who have an introduction into the Kingdom. Anyone who enters is a believer, can move in and out at will. That is the freedom man has and God has not only created him with the freedom, but redeemed him so he could exercise that freedom outside of the bondage to death and sin. You deny not only God's sovereignty and will but man's obligation within that sovereignty.

Anyone can post fiction not representive of scripture.

And you consistently do so as it very evident in this post again. You have yet to show any kind of universality of your personal opinion. Personal opinion does not make Gospel or even explain Gospel. If it aligns with what has always been believed then it is Gospel. What was once given, given for all, not just you, believed by all, not just you, and from the beginning, not either from the reformation or in most cases in your lifetime.

Sojo rejects positional sanctification clearly taught by 1 Corinthians 15:22.

I most certainly do reject positional sanctification. But your problem is that I Cor 15:22 does not even represent sanctification. It is only redemption. The reversal of the fall. As in Adam, so in Christ.

The folks in Matthew 13 were enlightened, they had tasted the gospel, but their faith was rootless. They did not believe in their hearts, and therefore they were not spiritually baptized into Christ. They fell away, indicating their faith was not protected.

Again, you prove my point van. If one is enlightened they are a believer. You again verify that they fell away. A believer can fall away. Weak faith. If they were baptised, they are a believer. Does not matter the strength or that it may or may not endure. We are not baptised into Christ unless and until we act on our faith which is to repent which is confirmed by water baptism. It has been so practiced from the very beginning as it is described in Scripture and confirmed in extra-bibical writing every single century including the overlapping of Scripture. Yet, you deny Scripture creating your own private religion.

Faith is defined in scripture folks and it is a mental attitude. It means to completely abandon efforts to earn or sustain our salvation and trust fully in the completed work of Christ. We are to believe in Jesus Christ. Acts 16:30-31.

Once again you emphasize the typical verseism called vanism. Do you even read other verses such as verse 33. The same hour. They confirmed their mental acceptance with action. They actually did believe. They did more than Satan ever did.

To repeat, Acts 10:44 demolishes any argument that water baptism is necessary for positional sanctification, they were indwelt before they moved from their chairs. The only thing that happens in water baptism is we get wet and we testify of our Lord and Savior.

Again, verseism at its best. Verse 47 and again as well as 11:16 as well as the command to baptise believers into Christ in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
Also, these beleivers did not become indwelt in this verse. It was the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles. And Peter confirms this by the prophecy of Joel 2: 28-29 which is also found in Acts 2:16-21.

Adam's physical body has long since returned to dust, no one is physcially in Adam. But in our sinful state, we are spiritually in Adam, separated from God and predisposed to sin, corrupted just as Adam and Eve were corrupted when Adam sinned. It is a spiritual condition. We are spiritually dead in Adam, and we are made alive in Christ.

Actually, in this life we are still "in Adam". For all men have been appointed to die once Heb 9:27. This is the result of Adam's sin and the judgement of death against him. We are never spiritually in Adam. Also it is the other way around. we are not separated from God because we are disposed to sin, but because we are disposed to sin we are separated. It is physical first, the resultant condition is sin. It is this mortal state which prevents us from having an eternal relationship. Our physical death would have been final, a destruction of mankind. That is why Christ reversed the fall. That is why we can have a relationship with Him because it will last for an eternity. At the same time He also atoned for the penalty of our personal sins, since we have been freed from the judgement of Adam. That is a spiritual death.

We are spiritually dead in Adam, and we are made alive in Christ.

We are physciall dead in Adam. We became mortal. Christ made all men alive by His resurrection. We all have immortality. How could God have union and communion with a human being who would be destroyed in a few years. Man needed to become immortal. This is why man could not ever attain this status. We could not move ourselves from a mortal state to an immortal state no matter how many works we might do. That is, we have been saved by Grace. Man had nothing to do with it. It is all God. However, the salvation of man is a whole new beginning as we are now able to be in union and communion and we enter by faith. But faith is and must be an active faith. Not a mental attitude. We are not saved by our belief or mental state but on how we live our lives being in communion with God, or outside of God. Being IN Christ or NOT IN Christ.

I see Sojo dredged up the ol, all in all argument. One more time folks, 1 Corinthians says everybody in Adam, that is all the folks in Adam, die. And it says everybody in Christ, that is all the folks in Christ are made alive.

You made me do it, Van. one should paraphrase it correctly however. It is not those In Christ that are made alive. But keep it as scripture states it. You have a knack of putting your Vanism suppositions in front of the text and paraphrasing it so it meets your definition. But it does not say what you say.
It says, as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. The whole chapter speaks against your idea. Read carefully verse 12-19. Those verses are summed up in the verse you chose to redefine Christianity and build your own doctrine.
In case you don't know there are more then read these as well. They all speak of the direct correlation between Adam and Christ. And that all human beings will be raised because Christ overcame death by His resurrection. The death sentence against Adam.
The following are: Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Eph 1:10; John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32 They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work. they have absolutely no direct connection to sanctification. They are the definition of the Incarnation.

Next Sojo dredges up the "my view is that of the Apostles" argument. Twaddle.

You have not shown such. It has consistantly been your personal take of things. Yet, Iraneous a second generation student from the Apostle John first gave this summation regarding the Incarnation and Christ assuming our nature in order to redeem it. Athanasius defended that belief in the dispute with Nestorius. By the way, I assume you read the findings of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus. Did you not read this a quote from the findings of the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus:

This was not as though he needed necessarily or for his own nature a birth in time and in the last times of this age, but in order that he might bless the beginning of our existence, in order that seeing that it was a woman that had given birth to him united to the flesh, the curse against the whole race should thereafter cease which was consigning all our earthy bodies to death, and in order that the removal through him of the curse,"

James 2:5 teaches we are chosen because God keeps His promises to those who love Him.

Yes, he guards us as beleivers as long as we love Him. Now, what do you do when you hate your brother, though I suspect that can never happen, since God guards your love as He does your faith. If one hates his brother, He cannot love God. oops. How can this even happen in your view?

James 2:24 teaches we are saved by faith that would result in faithful service, and not by faith or belief that would not result in faithful service

But that is not what you believe. You actually stated that even those who disbelieve, those who did not endure their walk would still be saved because their faith was protected not their walk. James kinda puts that one in the waste basket contrary to what you think James means.

James does not teach what you teach. Show me here as well that Christians believed this before you did. All Christians believed as you do.

Again folks, we are not made alive by choosing to believe in Christ, we are made alive when God accepts our faith and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, we are in Christ by God's doing 1 Corinthians 1:30.

You are contradicting yourself here again. Being made alive through Christ is not the same as being placed INTO Christ. We were made alive so that we as believers could live IN Christ. No one denies, that I know of that God does the indwelling the implanting. But God does not do it unless man believes and repents. Man is the initiator of the action or work of God. God preserves us through our faith. God accepts us as long as we accept Him. If we deny Him, He will deny us. How clear is that and direct. II Tim 2:11-13. This is not spoken either about unbelievers nor to unbelievers but to those who have believed. Christians in other words, those who are IN Christ.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Brother In Christ,

We cannot lose our salvation. We don't inherit it until death, so we would be powerless to change whatever the outcome.

eph 1:11 In whom also Christ have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the determinive counsel of His own desireous will.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might experiencial know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 john 5:20

But we all sin. Repentance keeps us reconciled to God. It is willful, unrepentant, rebellious sin that separates us from God. If we so remain until death, we will also forfeit eternal life with Christ.

can't live on two different sides

But the topic is faith. It is faith since the world began that enters us into a relationship with God. It is continued faith or faithfulness that will inherit the KIngdom.

phil 1:6 Holy spirit will continue work
eph 1:13 H.S. seals into Christ

even us sinning we cannot jump from the Father hand ourselves

once a person believes ..romans 4:5
sin is counted paid for ..Romans 4:8

do not believe John 8:24 still in your sins even though JC paid for all sins while on cross ...belief not works are required...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Van,



Why do you give the correct explanation, then in summary always contradict yourself?

God does accept us by our faith. That faith is works. It is the works that Grace works with through our faith. If we have no works of faith, then we are not IN Christ. We are not being saved.
If we had faith for many years, and then for whatever reason departed, no longer desired to be IN Christ, we will have lost faith, discontinued the relationship with Christ, are not being saved. We would no longer be justified. You cannot separate justification and active working out of that faith. No one, without exception will enter upon death if they are not IN Christ, have a working faith IN Christ.

Or, one who is disobedient, unfaithful, willingly sinning, will not be saved, no matter if they were justified 50 years before as per your view.

romans 8:29 For whom He did forknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, That He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He he also Called; and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified them He glorified.

van you are stating us ..us ..us

bible stated God, God, God

 

[Van]

BIC, I am not stating us, us, us. Unless you provide a quote where I said us, us, us, you are slandering me. Why post falsehoods?

 

[Van]

Sojo, post number 47 is wrong on all counts. You are a troll.
(1) Jesus did not accept the rich young ruler.
(2) The parable of the virgins supports my position, not yours.
(3) The parable of the Prodical Son supports my position, not yours.
(4) I do not deny God's sovereignty
(5) I do not deny that we are responsible to believe in Jesus and humbly walk with Jesus, carrying out our ministry of reconciliation, and being ambassadors of Christ.
(6) I post scripture that supports the truth of my position.
(7) Going from being in Adam to being in Christ is positional sanctification, being set apart.
(8) Being enlightened does indicate a person is a believer, but by the use of term enlightened, this signals that the person is not a born again believer. Knowledge but not reliance, hence never baptized into Christ.
(9) Acts 10:44 demonstrates water baptism is not necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.
(10) Acts 16:30-31 says believe, not believe and then sustain your relationship with your human effort of works.
(11) Acts 10:47 supports my position, not yours.
(12) If God puts us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30, we are no longer in Adam. We do not die, but "sleep" in Christ, to awaken to our bodily resurrection at the second coming.
(13) My view of the Incarnation is consistent with the mainstream, Sojo holds to the heresy of Nestorism. The Jesus had two spirits fallacy, he was part God and part man.
(14) I believe scripture teaches our faith and devotion to Christ is protected, 1 Peter 1:5, but not our walk, we still sin and still wander from the path of Christ into ineffective ministry. If we hate our brother, the love of Christ is not in us, we are not saved.
(16) I believe God accepts our faith because it would result in faithful service, a core belief that says I will follow Christ, no matter the cost. Our protected faith is a steadfast love, loyal and willing to show mercy to the lost.
(17) I believe we are made alive together with Christ when we are spiritually baptized into Christ, converted, and raised in Christ a new creation, created for good works, now a born again believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Regeneration.

 

[apocatastasis]

Van barks:

Sojo, post number 47 is wrong on all counts. You are a troll.

Troll: A supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, variously portrayed as a friendly or mischievous dwarf or as a giant, that lives in caves, in the hills, or under bridges.

Sojo, are you really one of these? That's so cool!

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Sojo, post number 47 is wrong on all counts. You are a troll.

Wrong based on your personal interpretation. You have yet to show that anyone, even someone since 1600 believes precisely the same as you do. You have not shown Apostolicity, nor the universality of the Gospel once given. If you will take the time to check even a couple of Church Fathers you will find that I am very accurate.

(1) Jesus did not accept the rich young ruler.

Actually we do not know this for the future. At that particular time He was not willing to submit totally to Christ. But he could have done so in the future and he could have changed his mind at any time after that.

(2) The parable of the virgins supports my position, not yours.

When one redefines it from what it has always meant, I would say it supports your view as well. But the is the problem, it is only your view. It is not Gospel Truth.

The parable of the Prodical Son supports my position, not yours.

Again, redefining it. But it clearly is one who was of that family, had faith in other words. Left the family, and then came back. One of the best examples of someone losing faith then finding it again.

I do not deny God's sovereignty

God explicitedly made man free, with an independent will. He then redeemed mankind so that our fallen natures and will could be corrected in order that He could call all men to salvation and that they would be able to choose of their own free will and while in communion with God, freely align his will with that of God's, in loving, obeying and fulfilling his created purpose.
You have remade the whole plan of man's creation and salvation. You've abrogated the sovereign plan of God in creating man in the first place, thus you also deny the biblical anthropology of man, as well as God's sovereign will for man.
As per your view it may be the plan that you have formulated by which you can live by, that does not make it the Gospel Truth. You have failed to show that anyone other than yourself believed as you do. That is not universal Gospel but private religion.

I do not deny that we are responsible to believe in Jesus and humbly walk with Jesus, carrying out our ministry of reconciliation, and being ambassadors of Christ.

Granted it is very difficult to actually state either way. I would be wrong anyway. You have taken the position on both sides. At one point man has a will. You had said earlier that Adam had a will. Then I believe you stated that man can choose as you do here, but suddenly, man's will goes into a coma. You deny that man has a will after he believes. How does belief change the essence of our human nature? All of a sudden man is no longer a human being with a will, a free will, independent of God's will. You have God suddenly controlling his every action so that he cannot fall from Grace when salvation is all about man keeping his will aligned with God's It is never God making sure man's will is aligned.
That is denying the anthropology of man respective of his creation is God's Image and his role in his salvation which is the purpose of man for which man will be held accountable. Do you not like the fact that it makes man accountable rather than God?

I post scripture that supports the truth of my position.

So, so does every other false teacher. It must come from scripture in order to be false. We are not discussing the differences of Hinduism and Christianity here.

Going from being in Adam to being in Christ is positional sanctification, being set apart.

Being placed IN Christ by God by our actions of faith and repentance is being set apart. Cannot deny that. But that has absolutely nothing to do with Adam. In fact Adam really has never been in the picture respective of salvation. Christ removed Adam as any part of the equation respective of salvation of man. That is why it refers to the redemption of mankind, not the salvation of man. We would not have been able to be placed IN Christ if Christ first had not been raised. By raising Himself he overcame that judgment of death against mankind, then also because of the Incarnation will be able to raise every single soul that has every lived. It is on both of these counts that man can even be placed INTO Christ.

(8) Being enlightened does indicate a person is a believer, but by the use of term enlightened, this signals that the person is not a born again believer. Knowledge but not reliance, hence never baptized into Christ.

That is what it does signal. It is the term that the Church uses during the act of water baptism. The new believer has been enlightened.
If one is baptised he is a new creature. He also recieves the Holy Spirit. You cannot use the promises of God toward man as man's promises toward God. God does not lock us into a straight jacket after we believe. We can and believers by the scores have denied their faith.
The definition of faith that you are using, true faith or saving faith, never occurs in this life. That could be the faith defined by those that endure and upon death enter heaven where one then could say, that one cannot lose either faith or salvation. It has been precluded. But up to that time it is an inheritance waiting for us, IF we are faithful,. if we endure, if we continue our faith, if we continue to love God, if we have remained IN Christ.

(9) Acts 10:44 demonstrates water baptism is not necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.

That is simply your viewpoint which has no backing. Historically you are on the other side. It has always meant water baptism is necessary as the norm. It is a sacrament that is salvfic as all sacrament are and have always been considered. Baptism is regenerational as well, has always been believed as such.

Acts 10:47 supports my position, not yours.

Yes, versim can always prove a point. But it lacks consistancy of Scripture and more importantly, it lacks authenticity of the Holy Spirit.
It has never been believed as such at least prior to the Reformation. Whether it actually was so interpreted remains to be seen as you have not even authenticated it as reformational. It is strictly, Vanism.

If God puts us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30, we are no longer in Adam. We do not die, but "sleep" in Christ, to awaken to our bodily resurrection at the second coming.

I Cor 1:30 does not address the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But of course in your view it does.
As I pointed out, no one is in Adam any longer. But we were never in Adam spiritually. But I will ask you how do all those other people rise from the graves at His second coming. You seem to be saying only those who sleep in Christ will awaken to a bodily resurrection. The Bible clearly says, and I gave you many verses that corroborate the fact that Christ is the first Fruits of them that slept. Are you saying that non-believers don't sleep (die) or what. How does this fit into your theology? How do you resolve this big contradiction?

My view of the Incarnation is consistent with the mainstream, Sojo holds to the heresy of Nestorism. The Jesus had two spirits fallacy, he was part God and part man.

Your view of the Incarnation is not historical, that I can assure you. You have not shown that I hold the view of Nestorism, that is pure conjecture on your part and part of you misinterpretation of the Incarnation to begin with. Nestoris did not believe Jesus was part man and part God. I think you better reread it again. Obviously you ignored the quote I posted in the most recent post of mine where I quoted the findings of the Third EC regarding the Incarnation of Christ's human nature overcoming the curse of all of mankind. As in Adam/so in Christ.
Van, you can redefine anything and everything you desire. It just does not make it the historical Gospel of which Jude speaks.
The Gospel is universal. Was once given, wholly, completely. It does not need redefining, new interpretations, new forms of faith, new ways of actually being a Christian. Actually, you can do this but it is not the authentic Gospel of Christ. It is a new religion.

I believe scripture teaches our faith and devotion to Christ is protected, 1 Peter 1:5, but not our walk, we still sin and still wander from the path of Christ into ineffective ministry. If we hate our brother, the love of Christ is not in us, we are not saved.

That is convenient to actually state one part incorrectly, then state another correctly but it becomes a contradiction.
The only way it cannot be a contradiction, is that you have never (I mean NEVER) hated anyone.If you have you do not love God. So if that be true, then you for that moment have fallen from being IN Christ. And if you do not resolve that hate both to your brother and to God, you will not be saved. Explain this to me, how you can say both sides are correct.I guess it just depends on when you want it to apply to make your view sound plausible, is that correct?

I believe God accepts our faith because it would result in faithful service, a core belief that says I will follow Christ, no matter the cost. Our protected faith is a steadfast love, loyal and willing to show mercy to the lost.

Quite the contrary, Van, He accepts our faith as long as it is faithful. You may have a core belief, but that belief can change. You just stated that if one hates his brother he does not love God. You cannot say that you can be saved if you hate God. As long as you love, seek forgiveness of any hate or any other sin you will remain reconciled to God. But sin separates. Are you actually saying that our walk is protected to the point that God overlooks sin because His love is steadfast, loyal and willing to show mercy to the lost. To me this means that God is saving a believer who is lost. I believe you live in contradictions, Van.

I believe we are made alive together with Christ when we are spiritually baptized into Christ, converted, and raised in Christ a new creation, created for good works, now a born again believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Regeneration.

We are alive long before, Van, if we were still dead, salvation would and could not be offered to us. It would all be in vain. You are mixing the regeneration of being place INTO Christ and man in baptism sharing in the suffering, death and resurrection of Christ, (this is the first resurrection) with all of mankind being made alive, immortal in ORDER that man could be offered salvation and could be regenerated.

 

[sojourner]

apocatastasis,

Sojo, are you really one of these? That's so cool!

I guess, in his eyes. That's OK, Probably more like a burr, though.

 

[Van]

More of the same, Sojo has not shown that anyone believes the logically inconsistent heresies of Sojo.

On point one, now Sojo reverses field and agrees with me. He posts whatever pops into his mind. The issue was quality of faith for those keeping score.

Folks, read the passage and judge for yourselves, the parable of the virgins supports my view not Sojo's.

The parable of the Prodical Son supports my view, not Sojo's.

Again, I believe in God's sovereignty, and saying my views are private without any evidence my views are not shared with many Christians is pure twaddle. Mere name calling, mere trolling.

You will find no quote where I said man's will goes into a coma when he is born again, I said his faith is protected. Trolling simply wastes time and diverts discussion from edifying anybody.

Folks, I cannot make much of the gibberish Sojo posts concerning Adam, we were never in Adam spiritually but we were in Adam physically, Adam is not in the picture and on and on.

My view of enlightened is consistent with the scripture that describes it, Sojo posts no references for his views.

The idea that water baptism is not necessary to receive the Holy Spirit is backed by Acts 10:47.

Yet another falsehood with no quote, I never said being placed in Christ is the same as being indwelt. I have explicitly said they are two different things. Sojo is simply trolling. Posting total falsehoods to get my goat.

Sojo posts no one is in Adam any longer due to the finished work of Christ on the cross. But this is directly contradicted by his statement we physically die because we are in Adam. As I said earlier, he posts whatever pops into his head.

Next he denies he believes Jesus had two spirits. But his post is there for all to read. Now if Jesus had two spirits, one divine, one human, Jesus is made up to two parts. Pretty simple. Nestorism to the core. Not the Orthodox view. Sojo knows nothing of Christology nor the incarnation. All he does is claim no opponent of his does, but that is pure twaddle.

Yes, I believe all those who sleep in Christ will arise at the second coming of Christ. I also believe in the resurrection of the lost, but these folks are doomed, they face judgement, punishment, and destruction. Sojo also knows nothing of End Things.

Nestoris did not believe Jesus was part man and part God.

More trolling. Read it again - "The Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431 condemned the heresy of Nestorism (which sees two separate persons in the Incarnate Christ, the one Divine and the other Human.)

I stated "If we hate our brother, the love of Christ is not in us, we are not saved." The very of idea of hating my brother is silly, God has forgiven me so much, I would be a hypocrite to hold anying against my brother. Again my view is consistent with 1 John 2:9-11.

Since Sojo knows nothing of the incarnation, because he holds to the Nestorian heresy, give no credence to his claims concerning what others hold as the correct mainstream view, Jesus had two natures human and divine but not two distinct and separate natures or two spirits. This is heresy.

As I have shown, when we are spiritually baptized into Christ, undergo the circumcision done without hands, arise in Christ a new creature, we are changed, we are in Christ and there is no going back. Because our faith is protected we will never desire to go back. We are predestined to an inheritance of eternal life.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Why apeal to others. Your view is a private view. Has no historicity and cannot be validated by anything in history. You did not even attempt to validate it as reformational, probably because you cannot.
The view I have presented is abundantly explained in every century of the Churches existance.
Eveyone is free to check out the validity of each of our views. I'll let my words stand, not your interpretations of my words. You cannot even restate my words correctly. You really do not understand the theology at all. You simply interpret scripture and use one verse at a time. When contradictions come as I have pointed out in every case the text has never meant what you want it to mean based on many other texts to the contrary. That is why I called it versism. It is inconsistant and unscriptural respective of the Gospel once given.
Primarily because you have a very deficient view of the history of Christianity and what has been believed since the beginning. You understanding of the Incarnation and the texts that support it clearly shows the inadaquancy.

 

[Van]

Why apeal to others

Because by definition, trolls do not respond to logic or reason or truth, they just post stuff calculated to arouse ire.

My view is shared with many Christians, your attempt to discredit it by saying it is private is a ploy without validity.
You have no idea what I believe or what I can demonstrate, your claim to be a mind reader is without merit.

Your Nestorian view has been condemn as heresy. Jesus has two natures but not two distinct and separate natures derived from two separate spirits.

I will let my words stand, certainly not your deliberate distortions.

You say I do not undestand theology at all, but I know Jesus does not have two spirits. I know nothing can snatch us out of God's hand, I know we are predestined to eternal life when we are placed in Christ.

I reach an understanding of a verse by studying the words in the verse and the verse in the passage, and the passage in the book and the book in the Bible, and the Bible as a whole. I look at the OT and at the NT. I look at lexicons and commentaries, including historical commentaries of those with views I do not share such as John Calvin. But mostly I rely on my good old NASB and take my scripture straight up. (I have also been blessed by the teachings of several pastors over the years of my life, some who would have been lost in the forest of doctrine, but because they had a firm grasp on Christ, they were never really lost.

There are no contradictions internally in my theology, it is consistent with all scripture, far more consistent than yours. We are conceived "in Adam" even now, two thousand years after the finished work of Christ. The effects of the fall, our corruption and separation, are only reversed when God puts us in Christ, converts us, and we arise a new creation, born again.

As I have demonstated your view of the incarnation is heresy, Jesus does not have two spirits. So you baseless charge concerning what I know is without merit.

In summary, we are saved by faith alone and not by faith plus works. God accepts our faith, if it is the kind of faith that would result in faithful service, rather than lip service faith, and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, converts us, and when we arise in Christ a new creature, indwells us with the Spirit of Christ such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. And the introduction to all this grace by God alone to the glory of God alone is our faith in Christ alone and not in our works.

 

[sojourner]

Van,

Of Course, nothing could match up to a personal view. That is why nothing can logically be against your view and no one has access to it. It is private. That is what makes it private. There is nothing that I have stated that has not been beleived by millions since the very beginning.
On this particular issue there was no difference even from the Roman Catholics up to the Council of Trent. You view lacks the continuity of Scripture as was given, which is quite obvious.
That you choose to believe such is your privilege and that there may be some who believe it now, but you have not shown that any believed it from the beginning.
The Holy Spirit has guarded that Gospel throughout history, we know that by its consistancy and continuance within His Church, the Body of Christ. You simply pick and choose the promises of Christ that fit your particular liking and either discard or ignore the others.
Since you stated your read commentaries and other sources, you should read Athenasius' book, "On the Incarnation". You will quickly find that I have been accurate to the detail on the historical definition of the Incarnation. You will also learn that it does not align with yours in the slightest.
No one is asking to believe but it will show the historicity and understanding of the Incarnation for the last 2000 years by the Church which Christ established on this earth.
By the way, the meaning of the Incarnation also includes that ontological, organic meaning of the Church, the Body of Christ.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Van,

Why do you give the correct explanation, then in summary always contradict yourself?

God does accept us by our faith. That faith is works. It is the works that Grace works with through our faith. If we have no works of faith, then we are not IN Christ. We are not being saved.

romans 11:6 And since by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift from God 9 not of works, least any man should boast

question...who's work John 6:29 ..God's work...

If we had faith for many years, and then for whatever reason departed, no longer desired to be IN Christ, we will have lost faith, discontinued the relationship with Christ, are not being saved. We would no longer be justified. You cannot separate justification and active working out of that faith. No one, without exception will enter upon death if they are not IN Christ, have a working faith IN Christ.

Or, one who is disobedient, unfaithful, willingly sinning, will not be saved, no matter if they were justified 50 years before as per your view.

yet in phil 1:6 God promises to finish His work

as well as in Heb 12:2

 

[sojourner]

Brother In Christ,

romans 11:6 And since by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift from God 9 not of works, least any man should boast

Does not address the subject. These verses are all referencing the works of the law. That these works cannot save mankind. They cannot redeem us. Only Christ can and man has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is all Grace.

However, the works of Righteousness is entirely different. These are the works for which we were created to do with God in our salvation. This whole thread is dealing with belief to enter into the relationship with Christ to work out our salvation with Him. This is the purpose of man.

question...who's work John 6:29 ..God's work...

It is His work for you to believe. He calls all sinners to repentance. The Holy Spirit works through sundry means and ways to call each and every person to repentance.
BUT, that belief or faith is our choice and the choice to remain is all man's. God will honor that choice no matter which it is and any time it occurs in our lives but He does neither make it nor compel man to keep it.

yet in phil 1:6 God promises to finish His work

Yes, He will finish the work, IF you permit Him to finsh. If we remain IN HIm, but if we leave Him, He will not remain with us either. He will continue to work, to call you back, but He will not remain in you.
You forget that this is a relationship, not an arrangement. This is a two-way street. It is not all God and nothing from man, nor is it all man, nothing from God, but a mutual relationship. God's promises are sure. But can you guarantee your relationship for a lifetime?

Heb 12:2

Why quote a verse out of context. The whole chapter is an explanation of it. It is all about man enduring, vs 14 persuing peace, looking carefully lest any fall short. Vs 25 is even more emphatic. You can be sure that every single promise of God has a condition attached to it. He does not throw pearls to swine or those who will trample His word.