saved before the foundation?

[orthedoxy]

How can Calvinist say we were saved before the world? The bible says one need to believe to be saved How can you claim you were saved when you were enemies of God?

 

[bradfordl]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

That's why.

 

[orthedoxy]

So were you saved before you believed?

 

[bradfordl]

And this:

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

 

[bradfordl]

So were you saved before you believed?

According to scripture, yes.

 

[bradfordl]

Like this:

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[GodsElect]

God says...

Isaiah 43:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.

It says nothing about they must first believe to be called. He declares that ,from His preparations from the foundation of the world, When He CALLS His people they WILL stand up together.

Here is another one for you to digest....

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

 

[mlqurgw]

While I don't have the references right off the top of my head, there are at least three tenses of the word saved. One is in the past tense as being saved before the foundation of the world, One in the present tense as being saved, and one in the future tense as will be saved. All of the elect of God were saved in the purpose and mind of God, if I can use such language, before the foundation of the world, 2Tim. 1:9, Eph. 1:3; saved in time when Christ died, and will be saved in the future when He brings it all to completion. I will look up the references if you wish.

 

[DeaconDean]

deleted

 

[DeaconDean]

"Let us therefore come to him with holiness of heart, lifting up chaste and undefiled hands to him; loving our gracious and merciful Father, who has made us to partake of his calling." -1 Clement 13:6

"Now this blessing is fulfilled in those who are chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." -1 Clement 21:15

"Now God, the inspector of all things, the Father of Spirits, and the Lord of all flesh, who has chosen our Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him, to be his distinctive people." -1 Clement 24:1

"Let us consider, then, brethren, of what matter we were made, -- who and what manner of beings we came into the world, as it were out of a sepulchre, and from utter darkness. He who made us and fashioned us, having prepared His bountiful gifts for us before we were born, introduced us into His world. Since, therefore, we receive all these things from Him, we ought for everything to give Him thanks; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." -1 Clement, 38:7-8

Ignatius said:

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace."

-Ignatius, Introduction to the Epistle to the Ephesians​

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Although I think, properly speaking, the actual 'point of salvation' comes a little bit into the order of salvation:

1. Foreknowledge
2. Predestination
3. Calling (this is the point at which we actually receive salvation, when we respond to the call. OK....maybe point 3.5!))
4. Justification
5. Glorification

 

[DeaconDean]

Although I think, properly speaking, the actual 'point of salvation' comes a little bit into the order of salvation:

1. Foreknowledge
2. Predestination
3. Calling (this is the point at which we actually receive salvation, when we respond to the call. OK....maybe point 3.5!))
4. Justification
5. Glorification

Actually, "foreknowledge" comes second, for if our salvation is dependant on God's foreknowledge of who will and who will not accept the gospel, then it isn't salavtion by grace, it is salvation by respect. And this cannot be so. If God based our predestination, election, and salvation, on His divine foreknowledge of who would and would not accept the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, then in all respects that would make God a respector of persons and scriptures teach otherwise:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" -Acts 10:34

What is grace? Grace is unmerited favor. God gave us grace through faith. If God used His divine "foreknowledge" of all things and actions, then I submit, it is not by grace we are saved.

The Foreknowledge of God, By: Arthur W. Pink:

"Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.
The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.
The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.
"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.
The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).
Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s "foreknowledge" is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God." (Acts 2:23). His "counsel" or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them. . . .who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Ps. 2:7).
God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He "foreknows" because He has elected."

Thus foreknowledge can not be used as a cause of our election in Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Dean

Just to add:

Athanasius

“The grace of the Savior to us-ward hath appeared of late, as saith the apostle, when he came to us; .., but was ‘prepared before, even before we were, yea, before the foundation of the world

"Having life and spiritual blessings prepared, before the world, for us in the word, according to election;"

from the beginning, even from the foundation of the world, this was the good will and pleasure of God, that Christ should suffer for us, and that we should be saved." ‘

John Chrysostom.

As many as were ordained to eternal life, ...., that is, says he, ‘who were separated or appointed by God’

‘the election of God is made according to purpose and foreknowledge; for from the first day he knew and proclaimed him that was good, and him that was not."


Ambrose


we are predestinated from the beginning, unto the adoption of the children of God, by Jesus Christ, in himself; which predestination he hath proved, asserting that which from the beginning is before declared, Therefore shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they both shall be one flesh, to be the mystery of Christ and the church."


I am thinking we need a ECF/Doctrines of Grace Thread.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Phileoeklogos]

Oh boy, now you guys done went and made me want to go back and read those ECF's again, my poor eyes ....

 

[orthedoxy]

If it says you were saved before the foundation of the world,then it doesn't make sense or it contradict when it says one need to believe and be saved.
I know the bible speaks of salvation in the past present and future but from CValvinist view it doesn't make sense. Can anyone clearify?
If it says you were saved how can you say you will be saved unless God saved according to his foreknowledge?

 

[mlqurgw]

If it says you were saved before the foundation of the world,then it doesn't make sense or it contradict when it says one need to believe and be saved.
I know the bible speaks of salvation in the past present and future but from CValvinist view it doesn't make sense. Can anyone clearify?
If it says you were saved how can you say you will be saved unless God saved according to his foreknowledge?

The elect were saved before the foundation of the world in the purpose of God in Christ. The Eternal Covenant of Grace was made between the three Persons of the God-head and in it the elect were given to Christ as His people and sheep. He became their Surety and we were saved in Him. We were actually saved in time when Christ came into the world and fulfilled all His covenant engagements as their Substitute ans Savior. We became aware of that salvation when God the Spirit caused us to see our need of Him and gave us faith to trust Him. We will be saved in the future when all will stand before the Great White Throne and the consummation of all things in Christ when we shall spend eternity worshipping Him.

 

[orthedoxy]

The elect were saved before the foundation of the world in the purpose of God in Christ. The Eternal Covenant of Grace was made between the three Persons of the God-head and in it the elect were given to Christ as His people and sheep. He became their Surety and we were saved in Him. We were actually saved in time when Christ came into the world and fulfilled all His covenant engagements as their Substitute ans Savior. We became aware of that salvation when God the Spirit caused us to see our need of Him and gave us faith to trust Him. We will be saved in the future when all will stand before the Great White Throne and the consummation of all things in Christ when we shall spend eternity worshipping Him.

The bible says believe and you will be saved and not you will be aware of your salvation.
Therefore we can't have been saved before we believed.
You can say you were elected to be saved but you were not saved.

 

[mlqurgw]

The bible says believe and you will be saved and not you will be aware of your salvation.
Therefore we can't have been saved before we believed.
You can say you were elected to be saved but you were not saved.

God said when I see the blood I will pass over you not when you see the blood I will pass over you. We aren't saved when we see the blood but when God does.

 

[GodsElect]

The bible says believe and you will be saved and not you will be aware of your salvation.
Therefore we can't have been saved before we believed.
You can say you were elected to be saved but you were not saved.

Let me give you the best example that I can to correctly describe why you cannot accept the truth of God's electing grace...

Have you ever watched the TV show "American Idol"???
Ya know that show, where average people try-out for a singing competition to see if they have the talent to be singers and make it BIG in the music industry?

Right now they are showing on TV the first rounds of the audition process. They are touring from city to city looking for people who have the talent in vocal performance to see who can be the next big solo music artist, the next "American Idol". I have to say, it is hilarious to a watch these auditions to see all the people who "think" they can sing, then come on television and make complete fools out of themselves. They stand before the judges and claim that they have the ability, the talent in singing, to become the next rising star.

If you watch, most of the people sing for the judges singing way out of tune, guys singing like girls, tone deaf voices, dressed in costumes, acting like complete crazy people, and cannot even carry a tune whatsoever. And what is just sad, is that all of these people say they have the ability to become great singers. But, it is very clear that they have no talent in singing at all and should not have quit their day jobs to even audition for the show in the first place. It is truly a sad but funny sight to see!

And as these people finish singing they stand before the judges awaiting to hear whether or not the were "good enough" to move on to Hollywood to the next round. And if you know what a good singer sounds like, it is very clear which ones will make it, and which ones will NOT.
Then the judges start to make their decisions and tell the wannabe singer, that they WILL NOT be going to Hollywood because of whatever reason, whether it be, "You sing out of tune.", "You have a squeeky voice.", or "Your voice was just plain TERRIBLE!!!"

It is clear that all the judges have all been around for a very long time in the music industry and know the difference between a good singer and a bad singer. And when they tell these people that they DO NOT have the ability to sing and this is not the path of life for them. It is AMAZING to see the utter PRIDE and unwillingness to accept the truth by the responses of these terrible singers. They say things like, "You judges DONT know what you are talking about!", "I am the best singer the ever was!", or "I totally have the ability to sing and I AM the next American Idol!" In which all of these statements are very untrue and utterly PRIDEFULL on their behalf because they just CANNOT EXCEPT THE TRUTH that they are horrible singers.

No matter how many times the judges tell these people that they are NOT going to Hollywood and that they can't sing at all, they just keep rambling on and on and on about how the judges don't know what they are talking about, they want to sing another song to prove themselves and yada yada yada....... Clearly, they are continuously rejecting the truth and the fact that they CAN'T SING A SINGLE NOTE!

This is PRIDE! The judges are telling these people the sad and grim truth that they will not make it in this profession. The wannabe singers have waaay too much self-PRIDE that they will NOT accept that they are horrible singers and simply cannot move on with their lives and accept the TRUTH that they will never be good singers. They end up leaving MAD or sad at the judges decisions, when all they heard from the judges was the TRUTH. They can't sing!

This is the point........

No matter how many times we give you the TRUTH, No matter how much we speak the TRUTH of God's electing Grace to you. You will continue to be like the wannabe singer who refuses that they are TONE DEAF. It is because of YOUR SELF-PRIDE that is the reason you cannot accept that you did not have the ability to choose God FIRST while you were DEAD in trespasses and sin, in order to be born again, to be adopted in Chirst, and to be saved. We can all give you this TRUTH over and over and again. But until you put to death your PRIDE, you will get nowhere. Unless, you can accept the truth, and give 100% of the Glory to God, even for your choices, that He has foreordained, from the foundation of the world that you will make these choices, my friend, you will not be going to Hollywood.

God will share His Glory with NO ONE!!! Accept that TRUTH!

 

[kimlva]

The bible says believe and you will be saved and not you will be aware of your salvation.
Therefore we can't have been saved before we believed.
You can say you were elected to be saved but you were not saved.

I have no clue what else you believe, but going by nothing but this quote right here, I agree with you. We were elected unto salvation. It has been predestined. But "technically," we are not saved until that point in time that God has predestined us to be born again. If we were "saved" when we were elected, there would be no need to be born again. Once would have been enough. So I agree with you here (and I am as predestinarian as one can get!) The thing is, if you were elect before the foundation of the world, you WILL be born again. There is absolutely no chance that you won't.

If, as the others here seem to think, you are trying to prove that we are not elected based on the fact that we must be saved "in time," then this is wrong. But based on what you have said right here, I agree.