Satisfaction vs Penal Substitution

[Eloy Craft]

Who are you modifying above? Us as the fallen or Christ.

If us then your point would be Christ did not have to bear the cross for us.

If Christ then you miss the point. It was He who knew no sin who became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I'm not modifying at all.
I'm pointing out an inconsistency in the definition of penal substirution I quoted and the definition of forgiveness. I'm looking for how that is resolved.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not modifying at all.
I'm pointing out an inconsistency in the definition of penal substirution I quoted and the definition of forgiveness. I'm looking for how that is resolved.

You can view the OP which expands on the one line summary of @PeaceByJesus. However, his one sentence summary is basic Biblical propitiation language as pointed out here.

 

[Eloy Craft]

You can view the OP which expands on the one line summary of @PeaceByJesus. However, his one sentence summary is basic Biblical propitiation language as pointed out here.

I understand it's almost unavoidable but that language projects mutability onto God. I don't know if the substitution I believe is either. I think man upset the order of creation( all beings primary being us.) as God intended but didn't upset God or prevent Him from being able to forgive. The disordering of human nature and obstructing the perfection of man to be united to God is restored by Jesus. Jesus, also a human, made available to all humans that lost human perfection and the end intended for human life.

The cost of which is the shedding of blood because evil hates good. No good deed goes unpunished? Jesus made God's love visible and the consequence of sin is hatred of the good of God. To evil spirits and men good is evil and evil deserves punished. God knew He would have to sacrifice His life to restore order. The Prophets lived this truth out in their own lives.

 

[Philip_B]

I understand it's almost unavoidable but that language projects mutability onto God. I don't know if the substitution I believe is either. I think man upset the order of creation( all beings primary being us.) as God intended but didn't upset God or prevent Him from being able to forgive. The disordering of human nature and obstructing the perfection of man to be united to God is restored by Jesus. Jesus, being a human made available to all humans that human perfection and the end intended for human life.

God made us in his image, yet we preferred not to accept the gift but rather take action that it might be our doing, and as it transpired it was our great undoing. In Jesus, that which we once had has been restored.

 

[redleghunter]

I understand it's almost unavoidable but that language projects mutability onto God. I don't know if the substitution I believe is either. I think man upset the order of creation( all beings primary being us.) as God intended but didn't upset God or prevent Him from being able to forgive. The disordering of human nature and obstructing the perfection of man to be united to God is restored by Jesus. Jesus, being a human made available to all humans that human perfection and the end intended for human life.

The "means" used by the Father was propitiation.

 

[Philip_B]

Propitiation: the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.​

I think we have to be very careful with this language lest we sound as though we are making God like the gods of primitive tribes requiring sacrifice to make them happy or less angry. If that is all we have to offer, then maybe JB Phillips is correct Our God is too small

I just don't think any discussion of the atonement without mystery or ineffability is ever going to be ultimately satisfactory.

That having been said, I am quite comfortable with the idea that Jesus is the lamb of the new testament covenant.

 

[redleghunter]

Propitiation: the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.​

I think we have to be very careful with this language lest we sound as though we are making God like the gods of primitive tribes requiring sacrifice to make them happy or less angry. If that is all we have to offer, then maybe JB Phillips is correct Our God is too small

I just don't think any discussion of the atonement without mystery or ineffability is ever going to be ultimately satisfactory.

That having been said, I am quite comfortable with the idea that Jesus is the lamb of the new testament covenant.

STRONGS NT 2434: ἱλασμός
ἱλασμός, ἱλασμοῦ, ὁ (ἱλάσκομαι);
1. an appeasing, propitiating, Vulg.propitiatio (Plutarch, de sera num. vind. c. 17; plural joined with καθαρμοι, Plutarch, Sol. 12; with the genitive of the object τῶν θεῶν, the Orphica Arg. 39; Plutarch, Fab. 18; θεῶν μῆνιν ἱλασμοῦ καί χαριστηριων δεομένην, vit. Camill. 7 at the end; ποιεῖσθαι ἱλασμόν, of a priest offering an expiatory sacrifice, 2 Macc. 3:33).
2. in Alex. usage the means of appeasing, a propitiation: Philo, alleg. leg. 3: § 61; προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περί τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10 (κριός τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; (cf. ἡμέρα τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9); also for סְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (Ps. 130:4); Daniel 9:9, Theod.). (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)

Yet it was the word/phrase Paul and John used.

 

[Philip_B]

STRONGS NT 2434: ἱλασμός
ἱλασμός, ἱλασμοῦ, ὁ (ἱλάσκομαι);
1. an appeasing, propitiating, Vulg.propitiatio (Plutarch, de sera num. vind. c. 17; plural joined with καθαρμοι, Plutarch, Sol. 12; with the genitive of the object τῶν θεῶν, the Orphica Arg. 39; Plutarch, Fab. 18; θεῶν μῆνιν ἱλασμοῦ καί χαριστηριων δεομένην, vit. Camill. 7 at the end; ποιεῖσθαι ἱλασμόν, of a priest offering an expiatory sacrifice, 2 Macc. 3:33).
2. in Alex. usage the means of appeasing, a propitiation: Philo, alleg. leg. 3: § 61; προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περί τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10 (κριός τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; (cf. ἡμέρα τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9); also for סְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (Ps. 130:4); Daniel 9:9, Theod.). (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)

Yet it was the word/phrase Paul and John used.

Yes, look I am good with this as you know. The word is used 4 times in the NT (and not in the Gospels). Redemption is used 12 times. just saying. I think the NT use of the propitiation word is to lead us back to the image of the passover lamb.

 

[Micah888]

Propitiation: the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.
I think we have to be very careful with this language lest we sound as though we are making God like the gods of primitive tribes requiring sacrifice to make them happy or less angry.

While propitiation (or atoning sacrifice) is applicable to false pagan gods, there is no question that it is properly applicable to Christ as the Lamb of God. As Paul says those other gods are no gods, simply devils.

There is no question that God's wrath is directed at sin and sinners throughout the Bible. Indeed the Flood of Noah's day is the perfect example of God's wrath against human wickedness. God wiped out the whole human race of that time, and saved just eight souls.

The sacrifice of Christ on the Cross (which included His intense sufferings in His body, soul, and spirit) and well as the shedding of His blood was the SATISFACTORY SACRIFICE for all the sins of all mankind. So Christ is called the Propitiation for our sins (the believer's sins) as well as the sins of the whole world.

Christians cannot pick and choose which part of the finished work of Christ is *acceptable* and which is not. It is the Holy Spirit who called Christ the HILASMOS through John. That should settle the matter. This argument about satisfaction v penal atonement has no biblical basis.

 

[Eloy Craft]

God made us in his image, yet we preferred not to accept the gift but rather take action that it might be our doing, and as it transpired it was our great undoing. In Jesus, that which we once had has been restored.

Yes I see that as true. We were presented a good that we considered better for us than the good of God. In deciding that it was better 'for us' a false image of ourselves must be constructed in order for the evil presented to be a good. I think, if I understand, when Satan made God out to be nefarious in His commandment "to not eat" A false mental image of God formed and a corresponding false image of man.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The cost of which is the shedding of blood because evil hates good. No good deed goes unpunished? Jesus made God's love visible and the consequence of sin is hatred of the good of God. To evil spirits and men good is evil and evil deserves punished. God knew He would have to sacrifice His life to restore order. The Prophets lived this truth out in their own lives.

The "means" used by the Father was propitiation.

The wrath of God is appeased=propitiation. I don't disagree with the term but what was it that appeased the Father is mistaken when terms are used that are used in exchange of money. Or conceptualizing God's anger as if He is like us and is suffering deprivation.

God's acts are love. Jesus, in obedience to His Father, obedient all the way to death on the cross, offered a sacrifice of love that was greater than the offense against His Father. It was obedience of such magnitude, in His Father's sight, it demonstrated love that could forgive every offense ever and infinitely more. That obedience mended the offense of rejection from mankind. Man who was a creature that God created everything for and made to be His son and friend, a son who was given everything his Father had made and more. In return His created son rejected the love of his Father and best friend He could ever desire. I think this is the nature of the debt and the atonement.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

PeaceByJesus said: ↑ Whereas in penal substitution Christ is punished instead of us, satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins.

Forgiving= is when the offended foregoes what's justly due from the offender- Somehow that definition of substitution doesn't square with forgiveness.

It is forgiving without the ultimate need for a sin-bearer and atonement - which the shedding of righteous life-blood provides and effectual penitent faith appropriates - that doesn't square with God's forgiveness.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:11)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:24-26)

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:9)

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:14)

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6)

 

[PeaceByJesus]

The wrath of God is appeased=propitiation. I don't disagree with the term but what was it that appeased the Father is mistaken when terms are used that are used in exchange of money. Or conceptualizing God's anger as if He is like us and is suffering deprivation.

God's acts are love. Jesus, in obedience to His Father, obedient all the way to death on the cross, offered a sacrifice of love that was greater than the offense against His Father. It was obedience of such magnitude, in His Father's sight, it demonstrated love that could forgive every offense ever and infinitely more. That obedience mended the offense of rejection from mankind. Man who was a creature that God created everything for and made to be His son and friend, a son who was given everything his Father had made and more. In return His created son rejected the love of his Father and best friend He could ever desire. I think this is the nature of the debt and the atonement.

While theology on the atonement is necessary, i am glad conversion in the Bible only required convicted contrite souls to believe on the Son sent by the Father to be the savior of the world, (1 John 4:14) and who died for our sins and rose again in accordance with the prophetic Scripture, and rise again, so that whoever believes on Him shall receive forgiveness of sins, on His account. (Acts 10:43) And thus characteristically follow Him.

Have you come to God as a penitent damned and morally destitute sinner, and cast all your faith on the risen Lord Jesus, sent by the Father, to save who by His sinless shed blood?

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Yes I see that as true. We were presented a good that we considered better for us than the good of God. In deciding that it was better 'for us' a false image of ourselves must be constructed in order for the evil presented to be a good. I think, if I understand, when Satan made God out to be nefarious in His commandment "to not eat" A false mental image of God formed and a corresponding false image of man.

The devil was the original Communist Liberal Elite, who thought it was his right (not as one in need of mercy and grace) to sit in glory and power (Isaiah 14:14) and presumed to "climb up some other way" (John 10:1) than that which is ordained of God (by mercy avoiding what one deserves, and under grace receiving what one does not deserve, and also rewarding obedience, which God motivates and enables, whereby overcomers will sit with Christ in His throne, Revelation 3:21, which promotion the devil arrogantly presumed).

And being abased for his self-exaltation in the original "Occupy Movement," he proceeded to work to seduce Eve with the psychology of the original victim-entitlement mentality, and its "share the wealth" demand, presenting God as maliciously selfishly keeping Eve away from Divine power which was rightfully hers. Thus her rebellion to obtain what was withheld seemed be just, while the devil, who presented himself as her savior, obtained power by her "vote," becoming the "god of this world." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

And ever since then he was sought to enlarge his kingdom and rob God of glory and gain it for himself in an alternative world, with perverse corruptions of what God ordained, even marriage and Christ and the gospel, and which world he works to accomplish thru his proxy servants. Who likewise typically seduce souls with the victim-entitlement mentality, though they typically have actual injustices to work with, but which are used to obtain power by the proxy servants of satan, whether it be Stalin or lesser devils, and who end up being the only ones who having all that they worked souls be envious of.

Now back to my garden (not Eden). Thanks and glory be to God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand it's almost unavoidable but that language projects mutability onto God. I don't know if the substitution I believe is either. I think man upset the order of creation( all beings primary being us.) as God intended but didn't upset God or prevent Him from being able to forgive. The disordering of human nature and obstructing the perfection of man to be united to God is restored by Jesus. Jesus, also a human, made available to all humans that lost human perfection and the end intended for human life.

The cost of which is the shedding of blood because evil hates good. No good deed goes unpunished? Jesus made God's love visible and the consequence of sin is hatred of the good of God. To evil spirits and men good is evil and evil deserves punished. God knew He would have to sacrifice His life to restore order. The Prophets lived this truth out in their own lives.

Can you explain the thought in red further?

Creation was finished and mankind was living in Eden at the time that sin came about

 

[ToBeLoved]

Forgiving= is when the offended foregoes what's justly due from the offender- Somehow that definition of substitution doesn't square with forgiveness.

And what form of substitution would each of us accept for forgiveness? Mankind doesn't really forgive in the real sense of the word.

It is only God, in perfect love that gives true forgiveness. We 'think' we forgive, but it is not in the true sense of the word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The devil was the original Communist Liberal, who thought it was his right (not as one in need of mercy and grace) to sit in glory and power and presumed to "climb up some other way" (John 10:1) than that which is ordained of God (mercy avoiding what one deserves, and grace giving what one does not, and under grace rewarding obedience which God motivates and enables, whereby overcomers will sit with Christ in His throne, Revelation 3:21, which promotion the devil arrogantly presumed).

And being abased for his self-exaltation in the original "Occupy Movement," he proceeded to work to seduce Eve with the original victim-entitlement psychology and "share the wealth" demand, presenting God as maliciously selfishly keeping Eve away from Divine power that which was rightfully hers. Thus her rebellion to obtain what was withheld seemed be just, while the devil, who presented himself as her savior, obtained power by her "vote," becoming the "god of this world."

And ever since then he was sought to enlarge his kingdom and rob God of glory via an alternative world, with perverse corruptions of what is of God, even marriage and Christ and the gospel, which he accomplishes thru his proxy servants. Who likewise typically seduce souls with the victim-entitlement mentality, though he typically has actual injustices to work with, but which are used to obtain power for his proxies, whether it be Stalin or lesser devils, who end up being the only ones who have what they worked souls be envious of.

Now back to my garden (not Eden).

The devil has already lost. He is only trying to take as many human beings as he can down to get back at God now. its a temporary thing.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Can you explain the thought in red further?

Creation was finished and mankind was living in Eden at the time that sin came about

When Adam sinned his body no longer shared in the immortality of his soul. He lost the Grace that ordered his body and soul to life everlasting. His body became a body of death. The lower powers of the soul that operate organic matter could no longer cooperate with the intellect or upper faculties and powers. The will and reason conscience, all these are informed by the sensitive powers or lower powers of the soul that are forced to adopt a law natural to death. The human body after sin is obedient to the law of the beasts. The law of survival. The disharmony in the soul externalizes to disharmony between Adam and Eve, Man and the powers of nature. The harmonious bond with God is with man and binds his body and soul, his personal relationships and mankind with nature.
Romans 7: 14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.

 

[Eloy Craft]

And what form of substitution would each of us accept for forgiveness? Mankind doesn't really forgive in the real sense of the word.

All of us as one man is Adam. Jesus substitutes for Adam. Is that what you mean?

 

[ToBeLoved]

When Adam sinned his body no longer shared in the immortality of his soul. He lost the Grace that ordered his body and soul to life everlasting. His body became a body of death. The lower powers of the soul that operate organic matter could no longer cooperate with the intellect or upper faculties and powers. The will and reason conscience, all these are informed by the sensitive powers or lower powers of the soul that are forced to adopt a law natural to death. The human body after sin is obedient to the law of the beasts. The law of survival. The disharmony in the soul externalizes to disharmony between Adam and Eve, Man and the powers of nature. The harmonious bond with God is with man and binds his body and soul, his personal relationships and mankind with nature.

So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.

That isn’t in the Bible.

The Bible said he was removed from Eden and the Tree of Life so he/they wouldn’t live forever in sin.

You sure take liberties on what happened And why.