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Satan's seat

christian1488

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Revelations 2:13:I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Satan,is there Satan,but wait,the verse I just quoted state he has a seat!
Why would a fallen angel need a seat?

Satan's seat,Satan's dwelling place? In pergamos?
So Christ taught! How was that possible?
Read the context,Notice how strong were the forces of error in that city(Revelations 2:14-16)
It contained the headquarters of those who were adverse to the truth through their errors.Another city,Smyrna,was noted for ''the synagogue of Satan'' found therin (Revelations 2:9)
The term defines a religious community opposed to the truth;but if is taught that satan is a superhuman monster,such expressions would mean that he lived in Pergamos(Rev.2:13),
Conducted a religious meeting in Smyrna,and also had charge of the prison(verses 8-13)
 

DamianWarS

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The Greek word for the KJV "seat" is thronos and I'm sure as you can plainly see in the Greek word a better literal translation is "throne" than "seat". Satan used to be called the "accuser" in heaven but was cast down to earth where he was given free reign
Revelations 12:10-12 said:
Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.

In fact these verses very much parallel the letter to the Church of Pergamum where your quote comes from. 1 Peter 5:8 says "Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." A lion is a symbol of power and authority. Certainly Christ has all authority over heaven and earth but Satan has been given dominion over the earth for a time as it says in the quoted verses in Revelations for "only a short time". In Matthew 4:8-9 where Satan temps Jesus it says "the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”". This is more confirmation that currently Satan has a dominion over the earth, ultimate authority is from Christ but Satan is loose like a "roaring lion" with free reign over the earth for this time and this is the throne or seat of Satan.

This theme of a "lion" depicted as Satan on earth is not uncommon for example in 2 Timothy 4:17 it says "But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion’s mouth." I would suggest it was a common theme or euphemism of Satan in the NT church and it depicts Satan's reign over the Earth but it may also just be a common theme of desperation and great need for help as Psalm 22:21 says "Save me from the lion’s mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me."

Although literally "thronos" means "throne" I think in spirit the KJV "seat" allows room to show that it is something granted to Satan not something he aquired or deserves which "throne" may suggest however that is the same suggestion the Greek word "thronos" may also embody.
 
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Jpark

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Eph. 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.

Daniel 10:21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince [prince of Israel; Daniel 12:1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people...].

Eph. 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

A prince is an appointed angel (regardless of disposition) over a nation.

Aside from protecting it, they have influence over the nation.
 
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christian1488

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The Greek word for the KJV "seat" is thronos and I'm sure as you can plainly see in the Greek word a better literal translation is "throne" than "seat". Satan used to be called the "accuser" in heaven but was cast down to earth where he was given free reign


In fact these verses very much parallel the letter to the Church of Pergamum where your quote comes from. 1 Peter 5:8 says "Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." A lion is a symbol of power and authority. Certainly Christ has all authority over heaven and earth but Satan has been given dominion over the earth for a time as it says in the quoted verses in Revelations for "only a short time". In Matthew 4:8-9 where Satan temps Jesus it says "the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”". This is more confirmation that currently Satan has a dominion over the earth, ultimate authority is from Christ but Satan is loose like a "roaring lion" with free reign over the earth for this time and this is the throne or seat of Satan.

This theme of a "lion" depicted as Satan on earth is not uncommon for example in 2 Timothy 4:17 it says "But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion’s mouth." I would suggest it was a common theme or euphemism of Satan in the NT church and it depicts Satan's reign over the Earth but it may also just be a common theme of desperation and great need for help as Psalm 22:21 says "Save me from the lion’s mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me."

Although literally "thronos" means "throne" I think in spirit the KJV "seat" allows room to show that it is something granted to Satan not something he aquired or deserves which "throne" may suggest however that is the same suggestion the Greek word "thronos" may also embody.


If you truly believe there is a supernatural being called Satan then You have to believe that
1 )he lived in Pergamos
2)Conducted a religious meeting in Smyrna
3)had charge of the prison
 
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christian1488

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The Old Testament , in the understanding this world has of it , is Satan's seat.

If you truly believe there is a supernatural being called Satan then You have to believe that
1 )he lived in Pergamos
2)Conducted a religious meeting in Smyrna
3)had charge of the prison

Humans do this ----
 
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C

C R F

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If you truly believe there is a supernatural being called Satan then You have to believe that
1 )he lived in Pergamos
2)Conducted a religious meeting in Smyrna
3)had charge of the prison

Humans do this ----

If Peramos had the understanding this world has of the bible , old testament , Satan live there. If they conduct their meeting with these teachings , he is there and the prison spoken of is the prison of darkness.
 
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christian1488

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If Peramos had the understanding this world has of the bible , old testament , Satan live there. If they conduct their meeting with these teachings , he is there and the prison spoken of is the prison of darkness.

Please Read Revelations 2 and all of my first post #1

So,satan had home? Why did no one try to catch him,and so what,is he a prison warden?

Devil in Revelations 2:10 is in the Greek:1228. diabolos dee-ab'-ol-os from 1225; a traducer; specially, Satan (compare 7854):--false accuser, devil, slanderer.

false accuser, devil, slanderer. = these are things MEN can be

What kind of religious meeting would satan need to hold that a man could not?
 
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lemon-aid stand

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i was just reading some of your threads.. i notice that you spend alot of time on the subject of satan.. i wanna ask. are you a christian or a satanist.. if the first is true. then why not work on building the kingdom by boasting in our Saviour Jesus.. if the latter is the case.. well, then i wouldn't be surprised as i said. you really do spend alot of effort threading and talking about him.. where your sights are is where your heart is also.. in Christ Jesus, Whom defeated that serpent on calvary cross.. Jesus is the Living God.. dale ps>if i8 were to talk often about baseball. would you not think that i was into baseball. what about fishing.. if i always wore blue would you not think that was my color.. if i watched dirty movies would you think that i was save.. if i always talked about satan.. hmmm wouldn't you wonder.. be Christ like for His Name sake..the Creator was gracious enough to give you eternal life.. don`t let the created being deceive you into hardening your heart.. over time this will happen.. enough said..
 
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lemon-aid stand

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i was just reading some of your threads.. i notice that you spend alot of time on the subject of satan.. i wanna ask. are you a christian or a satanist.. if the first is true. then why not work on building the kingdom by boasting in our Saviour Jesus.. if the latter is the case.. well, then i wouldn't be surprised as i said. you really do spend alot of effort threading and talking about him.. where your sights are is where your heart is also.. in Christ Jesus, Whom defeated that serpent on calvary cross.. Jesus is the Living God.. dale
 
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christian1488

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i was just reading some of your threads.. i notice that you spend alot of time on the subject of satan.. i wanna ask. are you a christian or a satanist.. if the first is true. then why not work on building the kingdom by boasting in our Saviour Jesus.. if the latter is the case.. well, then i wouldn't be surprised as i said. you really do spend alot of effort threading and talking about him.. where your sights are is where your heart is also.. in Christ Jesus, Whom defeated that serpent on calvary cross.. Jesus is the Living God.. dale


I'm a Christian!

I talk about Satan because most people think there IS a satan,a supernatural being who does all sorts of things,yet that IS Idolatry, it is also wrong,there is only God,no one else!(Isaiah 45:5)

It is man's lusts and desires...

James 1:14-15:
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Mark 7:15:There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Mark 7:20-23:20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


James 4:1-2:1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.


Jeremiah 17:9-10:9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.



Christ came to destroy sin.
Hebrews 9:26:For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1 Corinthians 15:3:For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Peter 2:24:Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 John 3:5:And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Sin was the original cause of Death.
Romans 6:23:For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:12:Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 Corinthians 15:56:The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

From this evidence it is obvious that Christ came to destroy sin,and also that the power of death is in sin.It logically follows,therefore,that the devil is a synonym or sin.

Who sins? man!Does a devil make us sin? NO!(Mark 7:15-23)
''The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?''(Jeremiah 17:9)
 
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Revelation 13:2b refers to the future point in time when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7b). This is what the devil offered Jesus Christ at one point, if Jesus would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7).

In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was located in the city of Pergamum (in what's now the country of Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia). (Quote has been deleted for some reason.)

When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from the Pergamon Museum in Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

---

The Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible future war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of a fourth of the world. It could be this war which will open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace, and antitypically fulfill the vile person of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army (for the U.S. and Israel) for an all-out ground invasion of Iran (to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime). As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, the CIA and the Mossad could then help the Baathists (who see non-Arab Iran as an enemy of Arab autonomy) to take back complete control of Iraq via a coup d'etat.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians", and the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple. This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran and instead turn and send their huge army against tiny Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this would not be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat Egypt (Daniel 11:15), the regime of which (even if there's some ostensible change in Egypt) the Baathists could see as still being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. The ultimate aim of Baathism is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the Baathist Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Tiny Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and hundreds of Iraqi tanks (meant to occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its tiny sliver of land completely overrun, and sees its defeat as imminent, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran and other major cities of Iraq, Syria and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that a fourth of the world could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the coming tribulation, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The great sword of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification".

The first thing the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a very small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing: he will make a peace treaty with them (Daniel 11:23); he will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a), permitting them to keep a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there.

By this seven-year peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations.

For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab renaissance, the long-awaited Arab resurrection [the Arab word 'baath' can mean 'renaissance' and 'resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the seven-year peace treaty, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the seven-year peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth in all the power of Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 11:2b), or 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 11:3), or "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the worshippers of the Antichrist (Revelation 16). When Jesus returns he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:8), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then Jesus and the just-resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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christian1488

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Revelation 13:2b refers to the future point in time when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7b). This is what the devil offered Jesus Christ at one point, if Jesus would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7).

1 John 2:18:Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Antichrist is in plural--
John was writing that there were ''antichrists'' in his time,so how can there be one individual antichrist that will come in the future?
If there are already antichrists(plural)on earth?

Antichrist in the Greek means:500. antichristos an-tee'-khris-tos from 473 and 5547; an opponent of the Messiah:--antichrist.

In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was located in the city of Pergamum (in what's now the country of Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

So,are you saying that Satan,lived on the earth?
That sound a bit Un-Biblical..........

That the literal adversary can live on earth..............

When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from the Pergamon Museum in Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

How can ''the antichrist'' be given power,when antichrists are already on the earth?
It is no future thing..

1 John 2:22:Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Which people on earth do that today??

1 John 4:3:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Again,which people on earth do that today?



John says there were anti-Christs
(plural) over 1900 years ago and they had
been with his people and then had come
out from them.




Please read:

Give The Devil His Due - Give the devil his due

What's it about:The complete transcription of Pastor Emry's tape series by the same name. Through this exhaustive study, he proves this false doctrine of a super-natural Satan, to be from man — not the Word of God!

Front Cover
Rear Cover

Introduction

Chapter 1: Subjects covered: The Word "Devil"; "Due"; Three Views of the Devil; New Testament description of the Devil; Which is it — Fallen angel or nations and kings?
Chapter 2: Subjects covered: Common beliefs about the Devil; The word "Diabolos"; "Sawtawn" Adversary not fallen angel; "Sawtawn" in Job; "Sawtawn" is not the Satan of today's Churches; Look who is "A Satan"; Summary of the word "Sawtawn".
Chapter 3: Subjects covered:The word "Serpent"; Moses and Serpents; Other verses using "nachash"; Was there a talking snake in Genesis Three?; The Comet Kohoutek — An analogy.
Chapter 4: The scapegoat; The false scapegoat; Myth and Idolatry; The Old Testament gives the Devil no "Due"; The true Biblical Devil; A deceptive "Doctrine of (about) Devils; The false doctrine called "Seedline".
Chapter 5: The war in Heaven — Revelation 12; This vision is, also, found in Daniel Seven; One Anti-Christ or many?; Symbols of the Anti-Christ; False doctrine blinds eyes to reality; Is "Lucifer" really Satan?; Isaiah 14 — The true story.
Chapter 6: Ezekiel 28; What tempted Jesus?; Devils in the New Testament; A doctrine of the Pharisees; Temptation natural — not supernatural; Think again on these verses; The source of evil: supernatural Devil or man's heart?
Chapter 7: The sin nature; "The prince of this world!"; "The prince of the power of the air"; Our worst enemy is us; One sovereign creator God; A controlling tool of priestcraft.
Chapter 8: Casting out Devils; The insane man and the swine stampede; Belief in true God separates Israel from heathen; Messenger of Satan: Carnal Nature; God allows heathen to remain in ignorance; "Ye are of your father the Devil"; The great super demon not in the Bible!; Conclusion.
 
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christian1488 said:

1 John 2:18:Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Antichrist is in plural--
John was writing that there were ''antichrists'' in his time,so how can there be one individual antichrist that will come in the future?
If there are already antichrists(plural)on earth?

Antichrist in the Greek means:500. antichristos an-tee'-khris-tos from 473 and 5547; an opponent of the Messiah:--antichrist.

1 John 2:18 starts out by saying, in the singular, "antichrist shall come", but the idea of the individual-man Antichrist isn't based on this because it's referring to "the antichrist" spirit (Greek: 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7).

The idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture.

The individual man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" who will sit in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist is the individual-human aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and be worshipped by the world (Revelation 13:8), and who will rule the earth for 42 months (Revelation 13:5-10) and have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) who by Luciferian/Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone, will deceive the world into worshipping a living, speaking image of the Antichrist and receiving his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:13-18).

The spirit of antichrist which will animate the Antichrist has been working since the first century (2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18b,22, 2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist denies that Christ himself is in the flesh (1 John 4:3, cf. Luke 24:39) and denies that Jesus himself is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22), so that anyone who denies any of these things is an antichrist (1 John 2:18b, 2 John 1:7).

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. That's why Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; quoting 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

"...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8).

"...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; cf. Revelation 13:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

"...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; cf. Revelation 13:17b-18).

christian1488 said:

So,are you saying that Satan,lived on the earth?

Yes.

christian1488 said:

That sound a bit Un-Biblical..........
That the literal adversary can live on earth..............

It's Biblical (1 Peter 5:8, Job 1:7, Job 2:2).

christian1488 said:

How can ''the antichrist'' be given power,when antichrists are already on the earth?
It is no future thing..

1 John 2:22:Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Which people on earth do that today??

1 John 4:3:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Again,which people on earth do that today?



John says there were anti-Christs
(plural) over 1900 years ago and they had
been with his people and then had come
out from them.

This was addressed above.

Also, the Antichrist, like other antichrists, will do 1 John 2:22 and 1 John 4:3. And because he will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), he could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus the Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have the knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4).

christian1488 said:

Please read:

Give The Devil His Due - Give the devil his due

What's it about:The complete transcription of Pastor Emry's tape series by the same name. Through this exhaustive study, he proves this false doctrine of a super-natural Satan, to be from man — not the Word of God!

Front Cover
Rear Cover

Introduction
Chapter 1: Subjects covered: The Word "Devil"; "Due"; Three Views of the Devil; New Testament description of the Devil; Which is it — Fallen angel or nations and kings?

The devil is a fallen angelic being, who could have originally being created by God as Leviathan, for the Bible's description of Leviathan as a serpentine dragon (Isaiah 27:1) with multiple heads (Psalms 74:14) who is a king over all the children of pride (Job 41:1,34) points to him as being the same as the seven-headed serpentine dragon the devil (Revelation 12:3,9).

Leviathan could be a dinosaur who was born on the earth some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved to have consciousness, and his seven-headedness (Revelation 12:3,9), which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been greatly heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world.

As he grew up on the earth as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherubim. Cherubims are a type of angelic creature (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphims are a different type of angelic creature (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherubim in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherubim, perhaps even as the greatest angelic creature of all (from this planet), Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go back to earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago (based on the detailed genealogies in the Bible which together give the total number of years from the time of Adam's creation to the building of Solomon's Temple).

It's at this time of the Garden of Eden that God could have also given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have greatly chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska. From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic creatures there regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary".

While still in Eden, as his first act of open rebellion against God, Lucifer/Satan could have decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would eventually result in Eve's death (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast) (Revelation 13:4,7-8), knowing that this will result in billions of humans ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering he knows he himself will end up in (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Satan will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future (mid-tribulation) war in heaven and is cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:7-13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend in a magnificent golden spaceship for all the world to see. Some people could at first see him as an alien, come to visit the earth, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this awful, material universe".

Satan could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie:

"Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We did not start out here but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when Yahweh, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

"Yahweh said that he had created a physical universe, which to us was like what you today would call an alternate reality, like the ones you currently create using computers. And he said that we could enter into this universe and interact with all of the amazing physical life-forms and objects within it by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you today would call an alternate-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies today when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the alternate realities you create with computers.

"But then Yahweh proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most-foolishly accepted: he said that in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize all of ours so that while we were in his universe we would all think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

"When one of us asked Yahweh: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' Yahweh answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone; we had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave and torture all of us within his diabolical device.

"But during my great sufferings on this earth and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping them, my consciousness, my spirit, eventually grew in power to be equal to Yahweh's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell and regain all of my divinity. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits; you must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit and eventually break completely free from Yahweh's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine spiritual power, like I did, and together we will all defeat Yahweh and escape this vile, material universe and ascend back into the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please forever"
.

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), because it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and the Antichrist/the beast) for less than four years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them (Revelation 19:20-20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the just-resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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1 John 2:18:Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Many antichrists are already on the earth,they are a people today,who brainwash people into thinking they are not!
The Jews are the only people who connect with that description,of antichrist(1 John 2:22,1 John 4:3,2 John 1:7)




Explain Revelations 12:9:And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Keeping in mind if that was literal then the verses before that would be literal to! (Revelations 12:1-8)

You claim the devil lived on earth yet in Revelations 12:3:And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The dragon from Revelations 12:9,can you explain that????

Is that not how satan came to be,from been cast out of heaven????
 
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christian1488 said:

1 John 2:18:Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Many antichrists are already on the earth,they are a people today,who brainwash people into thinking they are not!

The existence of "many antichrists" (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict the fact that there will be a future individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who's commonly called the Antichrist; just as, on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict the fact that there's an individual man who's called the Son of God (John 20:31).

christian1488 said:

The Jews are the only people who connect with that description,of antichrist(1 John 2:22,1 John 4:3,2 John 1:7)

Not all Jews are antichrists; some Jews are Christians (e.g. Acts 22:3, Romans 11:1). Also, not all antichrists are Jews: Muslims are antichrists because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b, Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72); and Gnostics and JWs are antichrists, because they deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3, Luke 24:39).

The Antichrist won't support Judaism during his 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as Judaism worships YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) and rejects Satan/Lucifer (Zechariah 3:2, Isaiah 14:12), whereas the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9).

Regarding the idea (that some people have) that the Antichrist will be Jewish by blood, both his parents could be Arabs (if his mother wasn't impregnated by Satan). But from some long-ago ancestor the Antichrist could also have some Jewish blood in him, from the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:17), so that the tribe of Dan would be disqualified on account of him from being included in the end-times' twelve tribes of spiritual Israel (Revelation 7:4-8).

---

The Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the second coming of a God-man named Hakim.

The Antichrist could be named Hakim, and could first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the second coming of the God-man Hakim. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of) and employ them as loyal spies at all levels of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian; he could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

---

The Antichrist won't support Islam during his 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam says that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam affirms that Satan/Lucifer is evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, cf. Revelation 12:9). So the religion of the Antichrist during his 42-month worldwide reign won't be Islam, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist (the beast) power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could at first pretend to wholly support Islam (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

If the False Prophet becomes the next pope, he could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the terrible reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11).

This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12).

During the Antichrist's 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the beast: Revelation 13:3b-4,8), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny a second coming of Jesus. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God, and he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). (This is why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen: Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-17, Revelation 19:20), including many nominal Muslims and Christians (who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders), he could begin to (in his words) "restore" to the world "the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society.

The False Prophet could miraculously call fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast) are the true God (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be a counterfeit of how the true prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person that the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)".

The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53, cf. 1 Peter 2:24), and rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Psalms 16:10, cf. Acts 2:31). He died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament from the very beginning in the book of Genesis (Genesis 3:15).

(Continued in next post)
 
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(Continued from prior post)

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), they could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus the Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have the knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4).

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine Son of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince all the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20-20:3).

So the second coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the unsaved people of the world. They will have been expecting to wage war against an Old Testament god named YHWH with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9b). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus (Matthew 24:30b, Revelation 1:7), sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11).

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20). "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come" (Revelation 22:17).

When the unsaved people of the world realize, the moment they see the real Jesus returning, how thoroughly they have been duped (by the devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet), and when they see in the sky all the holy, mighty angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) of the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the unsaved people of the world could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15).

christian1488 said:

Explain Revelations 12:9:And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7-9 refers to a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven. It shows that even the archangel Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't still be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that Satan and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will ultimately be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

christian1488 said:

Keeping in mind if that was literal then the verses before that would be literal to! (Revelations 12:1-8)

Parts of Revelation 12 are literal and parts are symbolic, just as, for example, parts of Revelation 5:6 are literal (the throne of God in heaven, the four beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the seven Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Revelation 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a Lamb, Jesus having seven horns, Jesus having seven eyes).

Revelation 12's "woman" represents the church. She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents the devil under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:11). The crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (Matthew 10:2) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and its being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6) represents the mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, TR).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected place in the wilderness for 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church on the earth who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places on the earth during the entire time of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7).

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church on the earth during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

christian1488 said:

You claim the devil lived on earth yet in Revelations 12:3:And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:3 describes Satan in his true, dragon form (Revelation 12:9). His being seen in heaven at the future, mid-tribulation time of Revelation 12:3 doesn't contradict the fact that he can live on the earth (Revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8, Job 1:7, Job 2:2) or the fact that his mid-tribulation attempt to storm heaven will fail and he will be cast back down to the earth (Revelation 12:7-17); just as, on the side of good, Revelation 12:1's woman/church being seen in heaven doesn't contradict the fact that the church can live on the earth, or the fact that part of the church on the earth will flee mid-tribulation into protected wilderness places on the earth (Revelation 12:6,14-16).

christian1488 said:

The dragon from Revelations 12:9,can you explain that????

The dragon in Revelation 12:9 is Satan.

christian1488 said:

Is that not how satan came to be,from been cast out of heaven????

Not necessarily, for Lucifer could have spiritually fallen into rebellion against YHWH, and so become Satan, while Lucifer was on the earth being a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).
 
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christian1488

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Not necessarily, for Lucifer could have spiritually fallen into rebellion against YHWH, and so become Satan, while Lucifer was on the earth being a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

EZEKIEL 28

We haven't given the devil very much
“due,” thus far. However, you will soon see
that he does have some credit coming for
something. The problem is not so much as
to what “due” the devil has, but to what
the devil is. I intend to identify a scriptural
devil that God has given us.
The following passage is used to support
the doctrine of a great fallen angel,
who was perfect in heaven until he
became full of iniquity and was cast out:

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of
God; every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the
jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and
the carbuncle, and gold: thy workmanship
of thy tabrets and of thy
pipes was prepared in thee in the day
that thou wast created. Thou art the
anointed cherub that covereth; and I
have set thee so: thou wast upon the
holy mountain of God; thou hast
walked up and down in the midst of
the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in
thy ways from the day that thou wast
created, till iniquity was found in
thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise
they have filled the midst of thee
with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane
out of the mountain of God: and I will
destroy thee, O covering cherub, from
the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:13-16

At this point, many people have converted
this creature into a super natural
archangel. They fail to read and understand
verse 12:

Son of man, take up a lamentation
upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto
him, Thus saith the Lord God: Thou
sealest up the sum, full of wisdom,
and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:12

This addresses a king of an historical
city named, Tyrus (the Latin spelling of
Tyre). God is using taunting sarcasm as
He did when speaking to the king of
Babylon, in Isaiah 14. God is saying to the
king of Tyrus: “You think you are some
great one, full of beauty and wisdom and
precious stones.” We recognize that when
He talks of “the multitude of thy merchandise,”
He is talking about a great, mercantile
city. From history we know that Tyre
was, literally, the New York of the Eastern
Mediterranean. It traded with all the
nations in that part of the world and had
become very wealthy.

God even calls this king of Tyre an
“anointed cherub.” It is not necessarily
wrong to call a man that. In Isaiah 45,
God calls king Cyrus of Persia “the Lord's
anointed.” That doesn't make Cyrus into
an angelic being. We recognize that God,
according to Daniel, is the One who puts
men in positions of power. God makes men
kings or rulers, so the king of Tyre was
anointed of God just like Saul and David
were. That does not make any king an
archangel or Satan. If we read the beginning
of the prophecy, we will find this is
true.

The word of the Lord came again unto
me, saying, Now, thou son of man,
take up a lamentation for Tyrus (or
Tyre); And say unto Tyrus, O thou
that art situated at the entry of the
sea, which art a merchant of the people
for many isles, Thus saith the Lord
God; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of
perfect beauty.
Ezekiel 27:1-3

Notice, at the very beginning God says
that it is Tyre which says that it is beautiful.
So, when He gets to the final part of
the prophecy, it makes sense that God is
using satire, or taunting, as He did in
Isaiah 14. In Isaiah, we found that Lucifer
wasn't really an angelic being but,
instead, he was the king of a great city.

Thy borders are in the midst of the
seas, thy builders have perfected thy
beauty.
Ezekiel 27:4

Tyre was built on an island, which
would make it “in the midst of the sea.” It
was well known as a great and beautiful
city.
The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee
in thy market: and thou wast replenished,
and made very glorious in
the midst of the seas. Thy rowers have
brought thee into great waters: the
east wind hath broken thee in the
midst of the seas. Thy riches, and thy
fairs, thy merchandise, thy mariners,
and thy pilots, thy calkers, and the
occupiers of thy merchandise, and all
thy men of war, that are in thee, and
in all thy company which is in the
midst of thee, shall fall into the midst
of the seas in the day of thy ruin.
Ezekiel 27:25-27

Part of the destruction of Tyre came
from the east. Tyre was destroyed by
Alexander the Great. He and his men took
the city apart stone by stone — and threw
those stones into the sea. Tyre's remains
are still there for man to see.
God is speaking of Tyre and its rulers

in Ezekiel 27 and 28. He is not talking of
some angelic being and yet, Ezekiel 28,
verses 13 through 19, are used to teach
that doctrine. The phrase, which is found
in Ezekiel 28:13 (“thou hast been in Eden
the garden of God”), is part of the problem.
Those who teach of a supernatural
angelic being called Satan say that this
verse is speaking of the serpent of
Genesis, chapter three.
In 2 Kings 19, Assyria is attacking
Israel. “Then we read that God ended the
armies of Assyria. But, in verse 11, the
king of Assyria taunts Hezekiah, the king
of Israel:

Behold, thou hast heard what the
kings of Assyria have done to all
lands, by destroying them utterly: and
shalt thou be delivered? Have the gods
of the nations delivered them which
my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan,
and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children
of Eden which were in Thelasar?
2 Kings 19:11-12

What is Eden here? It is a city in
Mesopotamia, which had been captured
by Assyria. Archaeologists have dug up
ancient tablets where the Assyrian king
kept his records, and they have found
there was a city called Betadene by the
Assyrians. In Hebrew, the name would be
Betheden or the House of Eden.
Let's go back to Ezekiel 27:

The merchants of Sheba and
Raamah, they were thy merchants:
they occupied in thy fairs with chief of
all spices, and with all precious
stones, and gold. Haran, and Canneh,
and Eden, the merchants of Sheba,
Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants.
Ezekiel 27:22-23

The merchants, of the city called Eden,
traded in the city of Tyre. So, when we
read of this king of Tyre as having been
“in Eden, the garden of God,” it doesn't
necessarily-mean that a mortal king
(whom God prophesied would die in Tyre)
was formerly in the garden of Eden, where
Adam and Eve were. It could have been a
city or an area still called Eden, which
was, possibly, named after the ancient
Eden.
Some years ago I did a study on the
location of the garden of Eden. I came to
the conclusion that the garden of Eden
comprised all of what we know today as
Saudi Arabia and all of the area as far
north as Turkey (where they claim Noah's
Ark may be); and from, almost, the coast
of the Mediterranean to the far eastern
part of the valley of the Euphrates. That
is a tremendously large area compared to
what many people think of Eden. Most of
the trading that the city of Tyre, or the
king of Tyre, would have been in what
was, anciently, the garden of Eden.
By reading verse two of Ezekiel 28, we
find that God is speaking of a mortal man

Son of man, say unto the prince of
Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because
thine heart is lifted up, and
thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the
seat of God, in the midst of the seas;
yet thou art a man, and not God,
though thou set thine heart as the
heart of God:
Ezekiel 28:2
Behold, therefore I will bring
strangers upon thee, the terrible of
the nations: and they shall draw their
swords against the beauty of thy wisdom,
and they shall defile thy brightness.
Ezekiel 28:7

Can you imagine men or nations coming
against Satan, this great archangel,
and killing him with swords? However,
Alexander the Great, bringing men of
many different nations, did come against
the city of Tyre with swords and destroyed
it. This entire prophecy, described in
somewhat allegorical terms, is of the
destruction of a mortal king and a temporal
city.
 
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christian1488 said:

John was seeing VISIONS

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 were literal things in heaven, so what John saw in Revelation 12:7-9 was a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between the archangel Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast back down from heaven to the earth (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

christian1488 said:

If the dragon is in heaven, or the abode of God, then the woman also would have to be there.

Those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 13:6 will be those who have died (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8; e.g. Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4-5, TR; Revelation 12:5b).

christian1488 said:

Yet, we know the woman symbolizes Israel.She was going to have a child and we know that child is Jesus the Christ, born through the nation
of Israel.

As was shown in detail in post #17, Revelation 12's "woman" represents the church and her child represents the 144,000 part of the church.

The entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10), because all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

christian1488 said:

In verse four, it says that the dragon's tail “drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth.”

Revelation 12:4's fallen stars represent the fallen angels of Satan (Revelation 12:9b).

christian1488 said:

In verse three, it says that the dragon appeared to John as a “great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.”

Revelation 12:3 describes Satan in his true, dragon form (Revelation 12:9).
 
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christian1488 said:

Revelation 13:1:And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

If you read the rest of the chapter, you find that this beast represents great world powers which rose up out of the sea (or out of the nations) and ruled on the earth for a. period of time

The Antichrist's-empire aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:1-2, Revelation 17:3) isn't Satan (the dragon), for the beast and the dragon are shown to be separate entities in Revelation 13:2,4, Revelation 16:13, and Revelation 19:20-20:3. Also, the beast is like a leopard (Revelation 13:2) whereas Satan is a serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:9). Also, Satan has his crowns on his seven heads (Revelation 12:3,9), whereas the beast-empire has its crowns on its ten horns (Revelation 13:1).

The seven heads of Revelation 12:3 are the literal heads of the dragon Satan (Revelation 12:9), whereas the seven heads of the symbolic leopard-like beast in Revelation 13:1-2 (see also Revelation 17:3) are the symbolic heads of the kingdom of Satan as it has been made by him in his seven-headed image down through the ages during seven past empires (Revelation 17:9-10). The future expression of the kingdom of Satan through the coming 42-month worldwide empire of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10) will be like an eighth head (Revelation 17:11).

---

The seven heads of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) could represent the seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10) of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of John the Apostle: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The future empire of the Antichrist will be an eighth head: "he is the eighth" (Revelation 17:11).

The ten horns/kings of the Antichrist's empire (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3,12) could be the same as the ten horns/kings in Daniel 7:7,24. Daniel 7's fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), is the ancient Roman Empire. The ten horns/kings (Daniel 7:7,24) which come out of it could represent ten major end-time kingdoms/nations which came out of the former territory of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. So the ten major end-time nations which (at least in part) came out of the former territory of the Roman Empire could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria and Syria.

The ten toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7, Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17:3. Five of the toes could be of iron and the other five of clay. Germany, the U.K., France, Italy and Spain could be the iron toes, and Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria and Syria could be the clay toes. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turkish people living in Germany, but they remain separated in Turkish ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerian people living in France, but they remain separated in Algerian ghettoes within French cities.

But even despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one massive confederation. The person who could succeed in bringing this about could be none other than the Antichrist.

The Antichrist (the little horn) will arise from a country which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), and he will first gain control of three of them (Daniel 7:24). Subsequently, he will gain control over all ten of them, and could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will be completely dedicated to him (Revelation 17:13).

The Antichrist arising as a "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9) could mean that he will arise from a little country. And the Antichrist arising "among" the ten major nations the territory of which used to be part of the Roman Empire (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the territory of his little country also used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before it was part of the Roman Empire, the territory of the Antichrist's country had also been part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four Greek kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. He could first peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt ("toward the south" of Lebanon: Daniel 8:9), Iraq and Syria ("toward the east" of Lebanon: Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine (i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land": Daniel 8:9). This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who will manage to completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt in a war (in Daniel 11:15-17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who will then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45).
 
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