Satan

[Exial]

If he is so evil and the cause of so much harm, why does God simply not destroy him? It is well within his power.

 

[elman]

If he is so evil and the cause of so much harm, why does God simply not destroy him? It is well within his power.

I think the only satan there is or ever will be is the satan we can become. If we chose to be vitorious over evil and death with the help of Jesus we need fear no other power in heaven or on earth. If we chose to be evil and unloving, we destroy ourselves. God does not have to destroy evil because the wages of sin is death.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Well, at least according to some saints and fathers of the Church, there is always the possibility for the devil to repent and be reconciled to God. From, at least that perspective then, God won't simply erase the devil from existence because ostensibly he could find forgiveness and stop being the devil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[wpage]

God had created Satan as one of his best objects. Satan thought he was better and rebelled and tried to take over...

The struggle goes on. We have the free will to decide which way to go. The outcome is already written.

 

[Exial]

God had created Satan as one of his best objects. Satan thought he was better and rebelled and tried to take over...

The struggle goes on. We have the free will to decide which way to go. The outcome is already written.

My point is though why does god not simply destroy him? he is all powerful, if he cannot destroy Satan instantly then he is either not all powerful or Satan is equally as powerful. To god, there would be no struggle, he could snap his celestial fingers and erase the universe so why doesn't he rid mankind of something that is apparently causing so much sin and evil in the world?

 

[Spirko]

If he is so evil and the cause of so much harm, why does God simply not destroy him? It is well within his power.

I know you're only here to argue and just contradict whatever we say, but I'll answer your question anyway, and then bow out.

First of all, Satan does relatively little harm. What you're thinking of, where the Devil runs around causing all sorts of mischief, is the Hollywood Devil, created by Dante and Milton, not the Biblical Devil. Honestly, the Smithfield Ham Devil is a more accurate portrayal than the Hollywood Devil.

The Devil is not omnipresent, is not omniscient, and is not omnipowerful. He cannot be in more than one place at a time and does not have the ability to do physical things.

The evil in the world is caused by man's sin (Romans 5), not the Devil.

Second, yes, God could destroy him (by which I mean cause him to no longer exist, as opposed to the Biblical use of the word, which means to defeat and punish). But why? Christ has already defeated Satan at the cross and has assured us that Satan will be judged and punished at the appropriate time. God has no obligation to change His perfect plan to suit your whims.

For the Christian, the Devil is powerless. For the unregenerate, the Devil is both a father figure, illustrating the nature of unregenerate man, and a constant call to repentance by reminding us that evil exists and will be judged and punished.

All the Devil can do to the born again believer is to taunt him. For the unregenerate, the unrepentant sinner, the Devil is not a tormentor, but a kindred spirit. This is why Jesus said, "You are of your father, the Devil".

What obligation does God have to protect His enemies from their own father?

 

[Exial]

I know you're only here to argue and just contradict whatever we say, but I'll answer your question anyway, and then bow out.

You can read minds? I like to get people to question their religious beliefs because I think religious beliefs should be questioned.

First of all, Satan does relatively little harm. What you're thinking of, where the Devil runs around causing all sorts of mischief, is the Hollywood Devil, created by Dante and Milton, not the Biblical Devil. Honestly, the Smithfield Ham Devil is a more accurate portrayal than the Hollywood Devil.

Many Christians seem very afraid of the devil.

God has no obligation to change His perfect plan to suit your whims.[/quote

So prayer is useless? I mean if god has a perfect plan that will not change for mortals why bother? Whatever is going to happen will happen so why petition him to change something?

For the Christian, the Devil is powerless.

Many certainly do not think that.

For the unregenerate, the Devil is both a father figure, illustrating the nature of unregenerate man, and a constant call to repentance by reminding us that evil exists and will be judged and punished.

All the Devil can do to the born again believer is to taunt him. For the unregenerate, the unrepentant sinner, the Devil is not a tormentor, but a kindred spirit. This is why Jesus said, "You are of your father, the Devil".

The devil is certainly not a father figure to me. You make a rather insulting assertions that non beleivers in Christianity are friend/son's of the devil.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

*edit

wrong forum.

 

[solarwave]

Another point is that you say the universe is so complex it requires a designer, but the designer has to be AT LEAST as complex as what it designs so by your own logic the designer, god, has to have a designer! Obviously your argument cannot be true as it would lead to an infinite regress. That is your own logic used against you.

Although I don't agree with ID I don't think this is the best argument against it (though it is simple). A designer doesn't have to be as complex as the design. It depends on how you define complexity. God tends to be thought of as very simple because He doesn't have arbitrary values in His attributes whereas the universe does seem to have values in which arn't infinite or zero.

 

[drich0150]

If he is so evil and the cause of so much harm, why does God simply not destroy him? It is well within his power.

Satan is not the "god" of evil. He is the embodiment of it. In turn any one of us could strive for this goal in our life as well. I could list a few names of men who have tried. Should God have to step in and destroy them as well?

Isn't that what Hell is? the separation or destruction of an individual from God and the rest of creation?
Why can't God destroy the devil?

He does in Hell.

What of all of those who mirror the intent or the acts of the devil? what is God to do with them? You are aware that being willfully in sin is the same as the intent and acts of Satan himself.. So the real question is what should God do with you?
Why should he be punished and you being of the same heart be set free?

 

[Exial]

Satan is not the "god" of evil. He is the embodiment of it. In turn any one of us could strive for this goal in our life as well. I could list a few names of men who have tried. Should God have to step in and destroy them as well?

Isn't that what Hell is? the separation or destruction of an individual from God and the rest of creation?
Why can't God destroy the devil?

He does in Hell.

So it takes him a while to destroy Satan? That is not befitting of an omnipotent being. If he is destroying Satan it could be done instantly, or he is not all powerful. Their is no reason why god lets Satan live.

What of all of those who mirror the intent or the acts of the devil? what is God to do with them? You are aware that being willfully in sin is the same as the intent and acts of Satan himself.. So the real question is what should God do with you?
Why should he be punished and you being of the same heart be set free?

I don't care about sin. Sin is meaningless to me. That doesn't mean I go around murdering people or robbing people because I'm a godless heathen and reject the Christian version of bad deeds (sin). I am a good person, I try my very very best to be a good friend, boyfriend and son and treat people with dignity and respect. I try and better myself, and I've worked on this for a long time.

You will not extend that virtue to me, instead you say I am in league with the devil, it doesn't seem to matter to Christians how much good I do in my life as long as I don't believe what you believe I am still evil and with the devil. You value beliefs over actions. You turn people away from your religion with your insulting words.

But, have I said that just because you don't believe what I believe that you will be tortured forever, that you are evil? That you are a bad person in league with Stalin because you don't think the same as me? No! That would make me a bad person because I have no idea how you have spent your life. You might volunteer, you might be a very good friend/husband/family member. I do not assume things about you just because of your beliefs, but you do that to me.

 

[aiki]

So it takes him a while to destroy Satan?

LOL! No. God will destroy Satan when it suits Him to do so, not when you think He should.

That is not befitting of an omnipotent being.

How would you as a non-omnipotent being know what is and isn't "befitting" for one who is? Satan isn't in control; he has only as much freedom to act as God allows. God is working out His holy, just, loving purposes even through his enemy the devil.

If he is destroying Satan it could be done instantly, or he is not all powerful.

This is what is known as a non-sequitur. The one statement does not necessarily follow from the other. How long God chooses to take to accomplish His will has nothing to do with His level of power. Sometimes people who could fly to their destination in a few hours drive for days to get there instead. Their choice to drive doesn't necessarily mean they weren't able to get where they were going much faster. Perhaps the journey was as important to them as the destination. In any case, capacity and choice are not always reflective of each other.

Their is no reason why god lets Satan live.

None you care to accept, anyway -- and doubtless some you couldn't as a finite, imperfect being begin to comprehend as well.

Selah.

 

[Mr.Williamson]

If there was no evil, there could be no God.

 

[elman]

If there was no evil, there could be no God.

I do not agree God is not evil. When there was only God, there was no evil.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

If he is destroying Satan it could be done instantly, or he is not all powerful

Yes.

Their is no reason why god lets Satan live.

Perhaps there is. Satan, according to Christian though, is simply fulfilling a purpose. God is in control and nothing satan does happens that God isn't aware; indeed all of the enemy's power is given to him,, for this limited time.

 

[Mr.Williamson]

I do not agree God is not evil. When there was only God, there was no evil.

God is not evil, you mistook what I was trying to portrait. God is necessary in our lives because of the evil we face daily. If there was no evil, there would still be a God, but no need for his protection.

 

[elman]

God is not evil, you mistook what I was trying to portrait. God is necessary in our lives because of the evil we face daily. If there was no evil, there would still be a God, but no need for his protection.

OK

 

[drich0150]

So it takes him a while to destroy Satan?

From who's perspective? From yours? are you the yardstick of time that the whole universe and eternity is measured? If God took a trillion years to destroy Satan that amount of time is still but a moment a blink of an eye, when compared to all of eternity past and future.

That is not befitting of an omnipotent being.

The "Omni" aspects of God Nature is an antiquated and extremely limited set of definitions created by religious men in an attempt to define a specific aspect of God's infinite nature. These definitions are not biblical so they do not or can not accurately describe what it is they are trying to describe. In other words God is not bound by the "Omni" aspects we have labeled Him with.

If he is destroying Satan it could be done instantly, or he is not all powerful. Their is no reason why god lets Satan live.

Did you not read what I wrote?

Satan is evil yes, but He is not the god of evil.. So in turn some of us are evil (yes?) So if God instantly destroys Satan for being evil, then why shouldn't he also destroy us for being evil? Neither satan nor any of us truly repersents a source of evil. We are beings who choose to be evil.

Evilness serves a purpose in this life. Evil is the ultimate expression of free will. Without "Evil" and all of the consequences of it we indeed do not have the freedom to choose to be outside the expressed will of God.

So again if God destroys all evil instantly then all of us would in turn be destroyed as well.

I don't care about sin. Sin is meaningless to me. That doesn't mean I go around murdering people or robbing people because I'm a godless heathen and reject the Christian version of bad deeds (sin). I am a good person, I try my very very best to be a good friend, boyfriend and son and treat people with dignity and respect. I try and better myself, and I've worked on this for a long time.

again who made you the yardstick in which the whole of the universe is to be measured? What is Good if God and His standard is not "good." Your ideas of "good" are subjective to the society we live in. For example Oscar Schlindler was considered "good" by many men, because he saved many Jews from execution.. But in reality he was still a Nazi and a war profiteer. By any other societal standards he would not be considered "good" if he had not live in such a evil society.

So, again your measure of "good" is only a comparison of all of the evil that you could be doing.

This is not what "Good and evil" is all about. Good is an absolute standard. Evil is a malicious intent to be outside of that standard.

You will not extend that virtue to me, instead you say I am in league with the devil, it doesn't seem to matter to Christians how much good I do in my life as long as I don't believe what you believe I am still evil and with the devil.

If you think this then truthfully you do not understand the basic concepts of good and evil.

You value beliefs over actions. You turn people away from your religion with your insulting words.

If one does not pander to another's pride is that an insult? Do you pander to our pride? look at you last paragraph you were indirect conflict with all that we believe, was I to take that as an insult?

If you come here truthfully exploring a different or a Godly perspective on your life, you must know that your ideals will not automatically line up with that of the bible. you must also be aware that you will not find a 'spiritual compromise" as is the norm with all of western society. So perhaps instead of getting mad because you can not find the approval on the way you live your life from a biblical perspective, you should take sometime and do some soul searching as to why you are here what you want from us and God.

If it is the truth you seek then know it will look different than what you currently hold close to your heart.

But, have I said that just because you don't believe what I believe that you will be tortured forever, that you are evil?

again evil and sin are not the same thing. You are not sent to hell just because you are bad. This is a 4th graders understanding of a medieval doctrine. No one goes to hell who wants to truthfully be with God. In turn no one is with God who does not truthfully want to be with Him.

The bottom line question is do you want to be with God for eternity yes or no. If you do then He has provided a way through Christ. if not the do nothing except "be good" in your own eyes.

That you are a bad person in league with Stalin because you don't think the same as me? No! That would make me a bad person because I have no idea how you have spent your life. You might volunteer, you might be a very good friend/husband/family member. I do not assume things about you just because of your beliefs, but you do that to me

Again the Heaven and Hell described in scripture has nothing to do with good or bad.. If it did then we would all rightfully deserve Hell end of story.

 

[LWB]

It would be bad form to do anything but destroy the great villain of humankind at any other time except the climax of the tale. Satan is just an element of this amazing story God is telling us. The technology of Heaven is far superior to anything we'd find at one of our cinemas though. 3D is a joke there. In Heaven the audience demands nothing but total immersion, and so here we are.

 

[Exial]

I don't see a down side here...

I didn't think you would.

Why does god create us sick in original sin and on the pain of eternal torture command us to be well again?

And what was the context within which such a command was given?

Genocide is never justified.

Well, if you have come here looking for evidence then obviously you are ignorant of it. This is not a crime, mind you.

Here're are a few arguments you might consider:

Do you not consider it possible that I have already examined the evidence and decided that it is not valuable?

The Kalam Cosmological Argument.

1. Everything that exists has a cause.
2. The universe exists.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Ok, I'll apply the exact same logic to god.

1, Everything that exists has a cause
2, God exists
3, Therefore, God has a cause.

What a poor argument.

Leibniz's Cosmological Argument.

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
3. The universe exists.
4. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence.
5. Therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is God.

Essentially the same as the first, according to the rules set out by the argument God also requires an explanation. This is nonsensical and would lead to infinite regress so the argument is false.

But in any case, why does the explanation to the universe have to be God?
Why does the cause have to be God? Which God? How do you know which God? Why can it not have always existed?

(I can almost guarantee in your response you will claim that God has always existed, needs no explanation and cause which is breaking the rules of your own argument)

It leads to more questions than answers.

The Moral Argument.

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

This argument is formally valid, but it requires that some baseless assertions are true. These assertions are,

a, Objective morality does exist
b, Objective morality is the work of a God
c, Objective morality cannot exist without a God.

According to the Bible, no one is "raised Christian." No one is a Christian by association and no one is Christian by observing Christian rituals and duties. This is clearly spelled out in Scripture.

Its just a saying. I was raised to believe the bible was true. So whatever you want to call it then fine, but I prefer to say I was raised Christian.

Well, that's too bad because there's plenty of it -- if you actually want it, that is.

Got anything empirical?

There is a reasonable basis for believing that the Bible communicates the truth to us. You may not accept that basis for yourself but you cannot claim that it doesn't exist or that it is utterly unreasonable.

I am asking what the basis is.

Why do you believe the Bible to be true? It is a very simple question, why will you not answer it clearly?

Oh? And what reason is that, exactly?

Simply put, you cannot see a reason to believe.