Satan!! What is he responsible for??

[magisterfaust]

Whenever there is a "natural" disaster, it is sometimes said by religious people as a punshment from God in response to the (still) sinful nature of humankind.

So, if that is the case, then what is Satan responsible for?

If a natural disaster is the work of god, the he is indiscriminate in his vengeance, which to me appears evil. Babies, Innocent people, (and, yes, they maybe innocent) drowned, buried alive. Or even suffer a slow agonising death of starvation and disease. Yes, that does appear evil. So how can the Evil One top that?

Is god nothing but a narccisatic megalomaniac?

Also...

Could Satan be forgiven?
What about....
SHOULD Satan be forgiven?

Or even...

Satan is the epitomy of Evil. The Dark One. Abaddon. The Accuser of the Brethren. The Adversary. The Adversary. Apollyon. the Tempter.
the Enemy, and many more....
Does / would he want forgiveness? __________________

 

[timmeh]

If there is a god, I want nothing to do with him. Violent, muderous, jealous, deceitful, creates souls for them to be in torment and agony for eternity, creates souls and then tests them......now why would anyone respect a god like that? Give me free thought and freedom from religion for life, even if it means an eternity in hell, because if god is in heaven.....I don't want to be there, hell can't be any worse!

 

[Ben johnson]

God cannot be blamed for all the bad that's happening in the world. Face it --- the world is "fallen", just as we are. Certain natural rules set in place from the beginning, when broken, have consequences; maybe it's just using a certain chemical in manufacturing, and an innocent dies from cancer. Maybe it's someone driving 20 miles above the speed limit, and two parents and three children die.

It's not God's fault. He cries about things, too.

The hope to we-who-believe, is that Jesus is returning; very likely in just a few years. When He does --- we will not die, and evil will not seem to win.

The world was created with "free will"; Adam chose wrongly; and too often so do we. The reality of the Creator exists on many levels. Jesus lived and died; and the record says He cheated death. There is no more "legally supportable" record in existence.

The world is far too complex to have arisen all by itself. Anyone who has studied cellular processes knows how vastly sophisticated life is.

No, God is not in control. It was not God's fault that Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews; or Stalin his 15,000,000. It's not God's fault that children are massacred in schools, or that disasters kill and maim so many.

....and, neither is it satan's. Oh satan would LIKE to take credit; but he's just a fallen angel. Not very bright to have HAD Heaven, and thrown it away. satan too often gets credit for things that go wrong; but usually it's just because of bad choices, or others' bad choices, or consequences of living in a fallen world.

In my heart, God is REAL. Yes I have periods of "testing"; but with certainty I KNOW that a man hung dying on a Cross, long ago --- and it was for ME.

I can speak to you of "hyperdimensional physics", of "Einstein-Rosen Bridges"; of relativity and "edges to the Universe". I can tell you of time dilation, and certain scientific constraints that DEMAND intelligent cause. Yet, as in ALL aspects of our lives, there will be faith required.

The evolutionist has faith --- that life began by itself; zero evidence.

The athiest has faith --- that there is no God.

You and I have faith, whether we believe in God or not; things like Dinosaurs, and other things that we have never seen, never dug in an archeological excavation, never studied under a microscope --- we have to take others' words for it.

This then will be my answer to you, both previous posters, and to all who ask the same question. Make no mistake, EVERYONE asks this question. Research the facts, prove to yourself that the Bible is the most credible record around. Read "Evidence that demands a verdict" --- tough read, but worth it.

Then ask the same questions I once asked: "God --- are You real? Do You want me?

There is a difference between an "atheist", and an "agnostic"; an atheist does not know EVERYTHING in the Universe, thus he cannot say for sure "there is no God, perhaps in the part of the Universe I don't know." An agnostic is a doubter; he doesn't know.

...and there are two kinds of doubters:
HONEST --- doesn't know, and WANTS to know (if there's a God)
DISHONEST --- doesn't know, and does not WANT to know if there's a God.


I pray and encourage each of you, to be an honest doubter; for then, when you ask the question, you are WILLING to receive the answer.

God is real; when I asked Him, He answered me "YES", and "YES"!

Not everything in my life is going well; yet, this is not my world; it's not my life. I was born with nothing, and I will die with nothing; He has become everything to me. I belong to HIM, always and forever. I pray that people can know Him, as I know Him.

It is reasonable and honest to ask such questions; but ask them with an honest heart, open to Him ANSWERING.

 

[HannahBanana]

So, Ben, if God dislikes the bad things that are happening in the world today, and if he is truly "all-knowing," then why did he even tempt Adam and Eve with that darned apple tree in the first place, if he knew that tempting them would lead to this?

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't know the answer to that, "Hannah". I suspect it has to do with the nature of "love". The best description ever of love, is 1Cor13; in that, (verse 5), Paul says "Love does not demand its own way". Perhaps the possibility TO fall, must exist for love to be free.

Love cannot demand to be returned --- suppose I was to fall in love with a girl, and want to be with her; can I MAKE her love me back? No. All I can do, is ASK; perhaps the answer is "yes", but it might be "no".

Without a CHOICE to rebel, then how can man be "free" to love God? This is only speculation; I have a list of things to ask God in person, some day --- this is one of 'em.

Another thing --- picture Eve in the garden, and a snake walks up and starts talking to her.

Why didn't she run away, SCREAMING? I dunno.


God is love; and He did not mean for bad things to happen, or for people to perish. The nature of "love", means that it can only ASK to be returned. We can say "yes", and we can say "no".

He is real to me; the Bible is real, both in my heart, and in the world --- no archeology has ever refuted Scriptural places or events. All that is happening in the world, is real; the "end of time", seems to be unfolding just as foretold. When the world collapses and economies crash, when one world leader emerges --- and when an identification mark is required for every person --- remember this discussion. And remember that the Bible predicted it.


BTW --- does anyone know the PHONE NUMBER for the Garden of Eden?


Whyyyyy, it was "Adam 8-1-2".

 

[PetersKeys]

Whenever there is a "natural" disaster, it is sometimes said by religious people as a punshment from God in response to the (still) sinful nature of humankind.

So, if that is the case, then what is Satan responsible for?

If a natural disaster is the work of god, the he is indiscriminate in his vengeance, which to me appears evil. Babies, Innocent people, (and, yes, they maybe innocent) drowned, buried alive. Or even suffer a slow agonising death of starvation and disease. Yes, that does appear evil. So how can the Evil One top that?

Is god nothing but a narccisatic megalomaniac?

Also...

Could Satan be forgiven?
What about....
SHOULD Satan be forgiven?

Or even...

Satan is the epitomy of Evil. The Dark One. Abaddon. The Accuser of the Brethren. The Adversary. The Adversary. Apollyon. the Tempter.
the Enemy, and many more....
Does / would he want forgiveness? __________________

No Satan could not be forgivin because before he sinned he had foreknowledge of what would happen. Angels are more perfect than humans and have much higher culpability.

The sun shines on both the good and the bad. True justice dosen't happen until the afterlife. However there are cases of God's justice on earth, like Sodom and Gommorah. but for the most part these happen in order for people to realize the power of God and bring them to the faith. Our human minds cannot understand the justice of God, and we cannot put it into perspective. If we try to we will fail. Evil happens in this world not because of God, but because of abuse of our free will. So if you want to blame evil on someone, it is to blame on humanitys fall and their abuse of their free will. In fact evil is not a thing like good is. Evil cannot exist if there is no good, it is like a bloodsucking mosquito that cannot be without a good host. Evil is dependent on good because what we view as evil is simply a perversion of good. Everything at the begining starts out good. Everything in the world God created as good.

 

[Beanieboy]

The irony is that people claim that God offered a temptation (the Knowledge of Good and Evil), to offer man freewill. When you ask if there will be a Lucifer to tempt us in heaven, or if we are able to have free will to sin in heaven, they say no - so basically, you end up without freewill in the first place.

And the "free will"? To either obey God or be tortured for eternity in hell.
That's like putting a gun to someone's head and giving them free will to give you their money.

Personally, I don't believe in the devil. I believe that if there were no man, there would be no evil. There wouldn't be giraffes killing neighboring giraffes in a giraffe gang. There wouldn't be kittens gone bad.

Evil and good seem to live inside mankind, and whichever you feed becomes stronger. Unfortunately, it is beyond most people to admit that we have the ability, in the right situation, to kill someone with our bare hands, for example. So, instead, we put that bad image outside of us, call it Satan, and even if we succumb to it, are still telling God "it wasn't me - it was the serpent! He told me to do it!"

I've told a story about a BornAgain friend of mine who saw her entire life as a chess game between God and Satan. If she had to wait for a long red light, it was Satan testing her patience. When it changed, it was an intervention of God. She say every action and experience in her life as literally a blessing or a curse.

Conversely, Buddhism teaches that everything is a blessing. The bible even says to rejoice in all things. So, when it rains, I don't think Satan is raining on me personally, but thank the sky for watering the earth, and rejuvenating it. And no matter what happens, I try to give thanks.

It's a very different way to live.

 

[Ben johnson]

e

quoted by Beanieboy:
The irony is that people claim that God offered a temptation (the Knowledge of Good and Evil), to offer man freewill. When you ask if there will be a Lucifer to tempt us in heaven, or if we are able to have free will to sin in heaven, they say no - so basically, you end up without freewill in the first place.​

It is "fallen flesh" from which comes temptations, according to passages like Rom8; there is no sinful flesh in Heaven. Now, lucifer became conceited --- so arguably men have the same "free will"; yet --- given the example of how lucifer fell, the absence of weak sinful flesh, and full cognizance of our identity and position in Christ, I don't think there is a possibility of anyone getting "conceited" and thinking "I'll raise myself above God".

Quote:
And the "free will"? To either obey God or be tortured for eternity in hell.​

That's not the paradigm; it's either "love God and be with Him, or He doesn't have any other place to send you".

Quote:
That's like putting a gun to someone's head and giving them free will to give you their money. ​

Only if a person BELIEVES in the gun...

Quote:
Personally, I don't believe in the devil. I believe that if there were no man, there would be no evil. There wouldn't be giraffes killing neighboring giraffes in a giraffe gang. There wouldn't be kittens gone bad. ​

Whether you or I believe in him or not, doesn't change whether or not he exists.

Quote:
Evil and good seem to live inside mankind, and whichever you feed becomes stronger. Unfortunately, it is beyond most people to admit that we have the ability, in the right situation, to kill someone with our bare hands, for example. So, instead, we put that bad image outside of us, call it satan, and even if we succumb to it, are still telling God "it wasn't me - it was the serpent! He told me to do it!" ​

We have a text called "The Bible". It makes clear assertions --- one of which is "satan is real". So if a person believes "there is no devil", then he's thinking (by definition) "the Bible is not true". And the Bible is true or not, completely without consideration of whether we believe it or not.

This is why there is value in studying the Scripture, its archeological and genealogical assertions, to see "accuracy" or "error". I've never seen error.

Quote:
I've told a story about a BornAgain friend of mine who saw her entire life as a chess game between God and satan. If she had to wait for a long red light, it was satan testing her patience. When it changed, it was an intervention of God. She (sees) every action and experience in her life as literally a blessing or a curse. ​

This denies two other influences; herself, and her peers.

Quote:
Conversely, Buddhism teaches that everything is a blessing. The bible even says to rejoice in all things. So, when it rains, I don't think Satan is raining on me personally, but thank the sky for watering the earth, and rejuvenating it. And no matter what happens, I try to give thanks.

It's a very different way to live.
​

On the other hand, reality is not "man sitting before a table, on which is spread many different religions; man decides which one is best for him."

Reality is man sitting before a table, on which is spread a vast array of beliefs, and man wonders "which one is TRUTH"?

As Christians, we believe that there is a great factory somewhere, within whose walls is a production line, cranking out package after package of "counterfeit religions"; each designed to lead people away from God.

What all the counterfeits have in common (different from Christianity), are two things:
1. Jesus is not God.
2. The path to God (or enlightenment, or oneness, or eternity, whatever) --- is by good deeds.

Christianity asserts:
1. Jesus is God; no beginning, no end --- became man to pay for our sins.
2. The path to God has nothing to do with works; it is a free gift, which changes the heart of he who receives it, so that good works FOLLOW.

So it all boils down to a simple decision: "Which one is truth?" More than one cannot be right ("all roads lead to God") --- because they all say different things. And Jesus said "I'm the ONLY way"; He was, or was not and knew it and was a LIAR, or was not and didn't know it and was a lunatic. C.S.Lewis proposed the "Lord Liar Lunatic" argument. It is not credible to say "the Bible does not record events and Jesus' words accurately"; too much evidence that it is an accurate record.

So that's our decision --- the Bible is on the table with the rest of them, and it has the credibility we seek. Jesus was God, is God, and the path TO God is not by works.

It's not up to us to decide "which we like best"; but rather, "which is history"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Peterskeys:
No satan could not be forgiven because before he sinned he had foreknowledge of what would happen. Angels are more perfect than humans and have much higher culpability.

The sun shines on both the good and the bad. True justice dosen't happen until the afterlife. However there are cases of God's justice on earth, like Sodom and Gommorah. but for the most part these happen in order for people to realize the power of God and bring them to the faith. Our human minds cannot understand the justice of God, and we cannot put it into perspective. If we try to we will fail. Evil happens in this world not because of God, but because of abuse of our free will. So if you want to blame evil on someone, it is to blame on humanity's fall and their abuse of their free will. In fact evil is not a thing like good is. Evil cannot exist if there is no good, it is like a bloodsucking mosquito that cannot be without a good host. Evil is dependent on good because what we view as evil is simply a perversion of good. Everything at the begining starts out good. Everything in the world God created as good.​

Excellent post, "Peter".

 

[Beanieboy]

e

quoted by Beanieboy:
So it all boils down to a simple decision: "Which one is truth?" More than one cannot be right ("all roads lead to God") --- because they all say different things. And Jesus said "I'm the ONLY way"; He was, or was not and knew it and was a LIAR, or was not and didn't know it and was a lunatic. C.S.Lewis proposed the "Lord Liar Lunatic" argument. It is not credible to say "the Bible does not record events and Jesus' words accurately"; too much evidence that it is an accurate record.

So that's our decision --- the Bible is on the table with the rest of them, and it has the credibility we seek. Jesus was God, is God, and the path TO God is not by works.

It's not up to us to decide "which we like best"; but rather, "which is history"?​

In a interesting point in Quitting Religion without Quitting God, Zender has this conversation:
Evangelist: Jesus died for you sins!
Zender: Great! That's great news!
E: But you have to repent, and ask him into your heart.
Z: Now, he's not my Savior?
E: No, he is. But you have to ask him into your heart.
Z: Now he's not again. Did he die for my sins or not?
E: Yes!
Z: Um, good.
E: But you must accept him.
Z: Now he didn't again??? Ok, what do I have to do to be saved?
E: There is nothing that you can do.
Z: Well that's sad
E: But he has already done the work.
Z: Ah. Now, he's my Savior, is he? But I have to activate his salvation.

And on and on it continues.

I respect your right to believe that Jesus died on the cross, and only a fraction of humans who are Christian will be with God in heaven, while all of the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., will roast in a lake of fire.

I simply don't and can't believe it.

You can believe a guy with horns and a pitchfork is what made you lose your temper, but I would say, no one tempted you. You made a choice.

You can believe that demons made you tell a lie, but I say, you consciously made another choice.

Point to the woman who said that you talked her into it. She will point to the talking, walking snake.

However, this argument didn't even work with my parents when I was five.​

 

[Beanieboy]

I tell this story pretty often, so forgive me if you've read it before, but it illistrates how one can give power to Satan - more than he even has.

My born-again friend told me that she went to the store to get food for a picnic with a friend and to fellowship in the Lord. Satan wasn't having it, and tested her patience by making her park more than a block away. However, she said, "Fine, Satan. I'll just sing Jesus' Love is a bubblin' over on the walk. Hah!" The Lord blessed her with a sale on strawberries, praise the Lord, but Satan, not giving up, decided to test her patience again by making her wait in line. She prayed in tongues silently to herself, to anger Satan. Once she met her friend, they talked and praised the Lord. Angered, Satan sent a storm, and the clouds grew angry and dark. They ran to the car, and sang praises to God, mocking Satan.

She claimed that she was fighting darkness, and yet, Satan filled the parking lot, made the people get in line in front of her, and even controlled the weather!

My version, as a Buddhist: I was going to have a picnic, but had to park far away. It was a nice day, so I enjoyed the weather and exercise. I found a sale on Strawberries. The line was naturally long, since there were so many cars. I took some time to be in the here and now. I looked at the people in line, looked at what they were buying, gave a smile to someone else waiting. I had a nice picnic, but it started to rain. I waited it out in the car, and enjoyed the beauty and strength of nature seen in storms.

"Satan" had no power. There was nothing bad that happened to me.

So, is that really so bad?

 

[Beanieboy]

Another story that I really like from Northern Exposure:
A man has a beautiful horse. One day, the gate was left often, and the horse ran away. The people of the village said, "How unfortunate!" The man said, "Perhaps."

The horse returned with many wild horses. The people said, "What good fortune!" The man said, "Perhaps."

The man's son was riding the horse and fell and broke his leg. They said, "What bad luck!" The man said, "Perhaps."

A neighboring tribe began to war with the village. The men of the town rode the man's horses into battle. All of the men died except for the son, because he had broken his leg and could not ride.


The point of the story is that any event can be a blessing or a curse when you look at the longterm effect.

However, people like Pat Robertson tend to look at every event and make it into an act of God or Satan. If tornadoes hit Florida, it is God's Judgement on Disney and Gay Day. If tornadoes rip apart a church, it is Satan's attack on the people.

I would contend that it is neither God nor Satan, but the tornado.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
In a interesting point in Quitting Religion without Quitting God, Zender has this conversation:
Evangelist: Jesus died for your sins!
Zender: Great! That's great news!
E: But you have to repent, and ask him into your heart.
Z: Now, he's not my Savior?
E: No, he is. But you have to ask him into your heart.
Z: Now he's not again. Did he die for my sins or not?
E: Yes!
Z: Um, good.
E: But you must accept him.
Z: Now he didn't again??? Ok, what do I have to do to be saved?
E: There is nothing that you can do.
Z: Well that's sad
E: But he has already done the work.
Z: Ah. Now, he's my Savior, is he? But I have to activate his salvation.​

Sad that this "evangelist" didn't know Scripture well.

There is only one path to God, Jesus; He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Jn14:6 There is no credible way to assert "Jesus didn't really say that"; so He spoke truth, or He spoke a lie.

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I respect your right to believe that Jesus died on the cross, and only a fraction of humans who are Christian will be with God in heaven, while all of the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., will roast in a lake of fire. ​

I wouldn't bet on ALL Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus being absent from Heaven. My understanding of Rom2:14-16, is that those who have never HEARD of Jesus, nevertheless can have Him written in their hearts, as much as they understand Him. What of a Moslem, or Buddhist, or Hindu, who was never TOLD of the Savior? Is God unjust? No.

In Rom1:19-20, God is revealed through what He has made. Someone who seeks the Creator with all their heart, will FIND Him.

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I simply don't and can't believe it. ​

Truth stands alone, "Beanieboy". It doesn't need you, it doesn't need me. History, is what happened.

Jesus lived, and died; if He was not resurrected, then it was the greatest con of all time.

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You can believe a guy with horns and a pitchfork is what made you lose your temper, but I would say, no one tempted you. You made a choice. ​

I would agree. satan is just a "fallen angel"; it is a crime to give him too much credit.

In the book "The Fakers: Exploding the Myths of the Supernatural", Korem and Meier state that "it is just as much error to give too much credit to evil, as it is to believe evil does not exist; either is an extreme." Excellent book; Danny Korem is a professional magician (and tells you HOW the psychcs and fortune tellers work), and Paul Meier is a clinical psychiatrist (and tells you WHY they do.)

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You can believe that demons made you tell a lie, but I say, you consciously made another choice. ​

All actions, are choice. Yet --- Humans have not the POWER to resist sin. Not always. Christianity asserts that Jesus and the Spirit indwell the person, and EMPOWER him/her towards righteousness.

Quote:
Point to the woman who said that you talked her into it. She will point to the talking, walking snake. ​

I've seen animals that talk, and associate meaning with what they say. African Grey Parrots for instance. Actual words, and they KNOW what they're saying. Coco the gorilla for another; though she uses sign language --- she absolutely associates meaning.

But of course the snake was possessed; the most effective tool satan has, nowadays, is for people not to believe in him. One cannot defend against that which he believes does not exist.

Do you reserve the right to judge what is "valid" or "credible"? How much do you know about the Universe?

Suppose I told you that a Black Hole can reach "critical mass", and drop out of the Universe? You can travel right up to where it was, and never find it.

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However, this argument didn't even work with my parents when I was five.​

I'm betting your parents did not believe in bad-angels.

...but they believe in us....

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
I tell this story pretty often, so forgive me if you've read it before, but it illustrates how one can give power to satan - more than he even has.

My born-again friend told me that she went to the store to get food for a picnic with a friend and to fellowship in the Lord. satan wasn't having it, and tested her patience by making her park more than a block away. However, she said, "Fine, satan. I'll just sing Jesus' Love is a bubblin' over on the walk. Hah!" The Lord blessed her with a sale on strawberries, praise the Lord, but satan, not giving up, decided to test her patience again by making her wait in line. She prayed in tongues silently to herself, to anger satan. Once she met her friend, they talked and praised the Lord. Angered, satan sent a storm, and the clouds grew angry and dark. They ran to the car, and sang praises to God, mocking satan.

She claimed that she was fighting darkness, and yet, satan filled the parking lot, made the people get in line in front of her, and even controlled the weather!​

Let me share a verse with you, from a Christian perspective:
The seventy returned with joy, saying "Lord, even the demons are subject to us."
Jesus said, "I saw satan fall like lightning from Heaven; behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy --- and NOTHING shall hurt you." Lk10:17-19

Isn't that GREAT? That evil is subject to us!

No, it's NOT "great", it's nothing. For the key, is in the next verse:
"Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven." Lk10:20

By focusing on satan, he wins; we're THINKING of him, and we're hating. Both positions are supposed to be foreign to us.

The key to overcoming the world, is to fill our hearts full of God, that evil has no room. In Proverbs is the truism, "As a man thinks (reckons within), so is he." Thus, we should spend our time thinking about the Lord who loves us, and died for us.

Quote:
My version, as a Buddhist: I was going to have a picnic, but had to park far away. It was a nice day, so I enjoyed the weather and exercise. I found a sale on Strawberries. The line was naturally long, since there were so many cars. I took some time to be in the here and now. I looked at the people in line, looked at what they were buying, gave a smile to someone else waiting. I had a nice picnic, but it started to rain. I waited it out in the car, and enjoyed the beauty and strength of nature seen in storms. ​

And in many long lines, I've siezed many opportunities to tell people about Jesus. I've talked with witches, and pagans. With Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. With Moonies and Atheists. And in every case, I succeeded in conveying God's love to them, and that I myself fully deserved Hell except for His love.

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"satan" had no power.​

This is true; he has no power except that which we give him.

Quote:
There was nothing bad that happened to me.

So, is that really so bad?​

The vast majority of those who think they're Christian, have no idea what it means. We (believers) are not our own, we are bought with a price. We are ambassadors for Christ, for He indwells us. And what the world knows of Him, they know because of us.

Col3:23-24 speaks of doing all things without grumbling, knowing that the LORD is the real boss.

The difference between Buddhism and Christianity, is Buddhism asserts "look to the happiness inside"; and Christianity asserts "Jesus is my joy, inside".

If only everyone knew the real Jesus, in the intimate fellowship that is real salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

To everyone on the thread --- I highly recommend a movie, "The Hiding Place". Corrie Tenboom lost everything; her home, possessions, her family --- her father taken from her, her sister dying before her eyes. Yet through all of it, Jesus remained real to her.

Two weeks before the women in her group were executed, she was released due to a "clerical error". One of the woman (who had been a concert pianist until her hands were smashed for stealing aspirin), said: "I want Him, Corrie!"

Corrie said, "Just ask; He'll answer."

That's my advice to you. Bad things DO happen to good people; I don't have all the answers, but I have the One who does. Some day, we'll have the answers. Until then, we have Him.

I pray that I can know Him as well as Corrie did; and I pray that each of you can too.

 

[Beanieboy]

Quote:
​

Sad that this "evangelist" didn't know Scripture well.

Zender knows the Scripture very well. What he is arguing is that most lay people don't.

There is only one path to God, Jesus; He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Jn14:6 There is no credible way to assert "Jesus didn't really say that"; so He spoke truth, or He spoke a lie.

When Jesus spoke that, he wasn't crucified. He was alive and living. I must therefore conclude that to follow him meant to act Christ-like. However, most Christians think this means that you must repent, accept Jesus into your heart, etc, despite the fact that when this was said to the people that Jesus was alive, and there was no *pending my crucifiction of sins and resurrection small print.

I wouldn't bet on ALL Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus being absent from Heaven. My understanding of Rom2:14-16, is that those who have never HEARD of Jesus, nevertheless can have Him written in their hearts, as much as they understand Him. What of a Moslem, or Buddhist, or Hindu, who was never TOLD of the Savior? Is God unjust? No.

So, it would be better that Missionaries just leave people from other countries alone, and that they never hear of Christ, and get in on the ignorance clause, rather than teach people about Christ, and reject the other religion from the one that they were raised. My grandparents were Lutheran, my parents were Lutheran, and my brothers and sisters are Lutheran with children who go to Lutheran churches. I alone am Buddhist. Is this a coincidence? Did they choose Christianity? Or do you simply believe what you are taught? Is there not family pressure more than one's consideration of eternity?

Most Hindus continue to be Hindu, Muslims continue to practice Islam, etc.
Religion is as much about culture as it is personal, or even spiritual.

In Rom1:19-20, God is revealed through what He has made. Someone who seeks the Creator with all their heart, will FIND Him.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP.

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I simply don't and can't believe it. ​

Truth stands alone, "Beanieboy". It doesn't need you, it doesn't need me. History, is what happened.

Jesus lived, and died; if He was not resurrected, then it was the greatest con of all time.

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You can believe a guy with horns and a pitchfork is what made you lose your temper, but I would say, no one tempted you. You made a choice. ​

I would agree. satan is just a "fallen angel"; it is a crime to give him too much credit.

In the book "The Fakers: Exploding the Myths of the Supernatural", Korem and Meier state that "it is just as much error to give too much credit to evil, as it is to believe evil does not exist; either is an extreme." Excellent book; Danny Korem is a professional magician (and tells you HOW the psychcs and fortune tellers work), and Paul Meier is a clinical psychiatrist (and tells you WHY they do.)

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You can believe that demons made you tell a lie, but I say, you consciously made another choice. ​

All actions, are choice. Yet --- Humans have not the POWER to resist sin. Not always. Christianity asserts that Jesus and the Spirit indwell the person, and EMPOWER him/her towards righteousness.

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Point to the woman who said that you talked her into it. She will point to the talking, walking snake. ​

I've seen animals that talk, and associate meaning with what they say. African Grey Parrots for instance. Actual words, and they KNOW what they're saying. Coco the gorilla for another; though she uses sign language --- she absolutely associates meaning.

But of course the snake was possessed; the most effective tool satan has, nowadays, is for people not to believe in him. One cannot defend against that which he believes does not exist.

But one can question whether a snake had the brain capacity to form language, the lips to form words, or was walking around. Has that never crossed your mind? And the serpent was cursed. Do you believe that serpents are actually evil, with souls like humans, and the ability to communicate? God took away the limbs, but not their speech.
So, I find it a metaphor.

Do you reserve the right to judge what is "valid" or "credible"? How much do you know about the Universe?

Suppose I told you that a Black Hole can reach "critical mass", and drop out of the Universe? You can travel right up to where it was, and never find it.

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However, this argument didn't even work with my parents when I was five.​

I'm betting your parents did not believe in bad-angels.

...but they believe in us....

On the contrary, my parents believed in demons. People with mental illness were possessed by demons. Apparently, taking medication calms or casts out the demons. Strange, huh?

Do I know all there is in the world? Of course not.
However, people once believed that angels once pushed the planets around. I mean, they didn't push themselves around, right? But, there is a nonspiritual thing called gravity. No spiritual entities. Just a force of nature.

When Dali Lama was asked whether he believed that there was a God, he said that it was pointless to speculate. There is no way to prove it, so it is only speculation. However, living Christ, loving your neighbor as yourself, blessing your enemies, etc., is something tangible, is something that should be concentrated on much more.

The ironic thing is that often, those who claim that there is a God, that they are worshippers of that God, will show disdain, condemnation, rudeness, mockery, etc., which is the antithesis of the Scripture that they claim to follow, and then they say that all others are Children of the Devil.

However, Christ said that of the Pharisees, the religious leaders of his day. Somehow, Christ's gentleness with the prostitutes and tax collectors seems to be labeled "hand holding people's way to hell" these days.

If one is convinced that they follow the Bible, and they are right, they are easily misled. I have seen people actually say that hating people is the most loving thing that they could do for their neighbor who is sinning, someone who claimed that Jesus mocked people, so they should to, and someone who claimed that since God hated his enemies, she should, too, and enemy of God's is an enemy of hers. Except that that is negated in Romans 12.

Does Satan make her hate in the name of God? Or does she simply have the capacity to love and hate, and just chooses the latter, and justifies it in the name of God, and in so, gives God and Christians a bad name?

Satan could go on holiday, because people like her, her claim to be Christian, are pushing people away from God all by themselves.

 

[timmeh]

God cannot be blamed for all the bad that's hJesus lived and died; and the record says He cheated death. There is no more "legally supportable" record in existence.

I'm sorry, but the "record" is horribly inaccurate and contradictory and cannot be used as evidence.

The world is far too complex to have arisen all by itself. Anyone who has studied cellular processes knows how vastly sophisticated life is.

Life is sophisticated, and us humans as sophisticated human beings have a good grasp on how life started, it is not too complex to have arisen all by itself. Remember the life we see now, is nothing like the life which arose billions of years ago, that was very very basic life.

In my heart, God is REAL. Yes I have periods of "testing"; but with certainty I KNOW that a man hung dying on a Cross, long ago --- and it was for ME.

Annnnd bingo. There we have it. You believe, you really do and I don't doubt that. But this is not evidence of any kind of existence of god.

and certain scientific constraints that DEMAND intelligent cause.

Examples please.

The evolutionist has faith --- that life began by itself; zero evidence.

You misunderstand the theory of evolution. It doesn't attempt to explain the origins of life. Just the evolution of life, hence the name, and there is so much evidence for it that it's irrefutable.

The athiest has faith --- that there is no God.

Also not quite true, an atheist believes in evidence and reasoned logic. Since there is no evidence whatsoever of a god, why should one believe it? There is no evidence for flying elephants....do you believe in those too?

You and I have faith, whether we believe in God or not; things like Dinosaurs, and other things that we have never seen, never dug in an archeological excavation, never studied under a microscope --- we have to take others' words for it.

Hmm, this is intellectually dishonest. I could go tomorrow to a science lab and see the evidence for myself, you cannot say the same about god.

Research the facts, prove to yourself that the Bible is the most credible record around.

I know you are convinced it is the most credible record around, but I'm afraid it is no where near credible and is not used an accurate historical record by any stretch.

Then ask the same questions I once asked: "God --- are You real? Do You want me?

To who? Myself, the dog, my partner?

It is reasonable and honest to ask such questions; but ask them with an honest heart, open to Him ANSWERING.

How will I know he's answered? Voice in my head? A sign on some toast?

 

[Athene]

In answer to the OP, it appears that Satan has been responsible for all the movements in our history which have led to the liberation of certain groups of people or any call for society to develop a conscience. Satan was said to be behind the abolition of slavery, the end of apartheid, feminism, and most recently fair-trade (wanting poor farmers to receive a fair deal is anti-capitalism and therefore a work of Satan)... what else, oh yes Socialism, any form of government which looks after the poorest in society is Satanic.

 

[Beanieboy]

My parents watch the 700 Club. I remember watching it as a teen. Satan did everything. The reason for violence? Not man's nature for revenge, but Satan. The reason for divorce? Not people failing to communicate, to appreciate the other, taking time to listen, being honest, but Satan, of course! People certainly couldn't do it on their own! The reason for terrorism? Satan! Surely, the USA, with In God We Trust on our money, has never done anything bad to any other country, so it must be Satan!

And you reading this? Satan has nothing better to do than follow you around personally, making sure that you sin as much as possible. You have almost no control over it. Surely, you wouldn't do such things of your own volition. There must have been an invisible unseen entity that convinced you to do it.

However, Buddhism teaches that it does not come from without, but from within.
I would liken it to eating. Sometimes I want to eat candy. Sometimes, I could eat a can of frosting, for that matter. However, I choose not to, and the more I forgo sweets, the less addicted I feel to them, and the more my body wants to eat nutritious food.

Is a small demon telling me to eat at McDonald's, or to eat a pound of licorice?
I doubt it. It is my own heart that is desiring it, and my mind that knows better, and knows what the body wants, rather than what it sometimes craves. And with each resistance, the heart no longer desires unhealthy food, but healthy food.

That is basically what one does in meditation - quiets the unpure thoughts, and focuses and entertains the pure. One doesn't fight the thought. One simply acknowledges it, but lets it pass.

When I was a kid, I used to sing, "This little light of mine." When I thought of that recently, I came to this thought - that light does not fight the darkness, but simply changes darkness into light simply by being in existence.

 

[Ave Maria]

Absolutely nothing because "Satan" does not exist!