Satan is NOT Lucifer

[467AIR]

Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.

 

[467AIR]

Rome as past down thought the ages that Lucifer is Satan, problem is this cannot be. Satan is a creation of God not as a angel but a liar and a murderer.

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible, which is found in Isaiah 14:12, It reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning!" This so very often and little understood word comes from the Hebrew word HEYLEL which simply means SHINING ONE (Young's Concordance), MORNING STAR (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), BRIGHT STAR or SPLENDID STAR (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). etc. LUCIFER is the Latin word which was translated from heylel. Heylel is not a proper noun but is a word that tells us something about the one spoken of. The Hebrew does not indicate this is a
personal name, not in the remotest sense; nonetheless, the Latin translators rendered it as such.

The word LUCIFER is used only ONCE in the entirety of the Bible,
which is found in Isaiah 14:12, It reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning!" This so very often and little understood word comes from the Hebrew word HEYLEL which simply means SHINING ONE (Young's Concordance),
MORNING STAR (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), BRIGHT STAR or SPLENDID STAR (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). etc. LUCIFER is the Latin word which was translated from heylel.
Heylel is not a proper noun but is a word that tells us something about the one spoken of. The Hebrew does not indicate this is a personal name, not in the remotest sense; nonetheless, the Latin translators rendered it as such.

The only other verse we can recall which mentions anything about Satan in reference to light is II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not transform -- it is MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been to being light -- as a masquerading actor.

 

[Dave101]

I need 15 posts to send a pm.
Sorry.

 

[Glorthac]

I can agree that Lucifer wasn't an actual name for Satan, it's just become a synonymn. But as for Satan being a liar from the beginning, yea, he was, but what does it mean 'the beginning'? The beginning of time, the beginning of man, the beginning of the fall?
You interpret it as being the beginning of the 1st day, we interpret it as being the beginning of the end of the 1st day, when God "divided the light from the darkness".
Also, if God created Satan evil, isn't God the creator of evil?

 

[467AIR]

SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus not my opinion as all you seem to depend on, this should be enough to settle the querying minds of all, that he was never a shining angel of light. He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44;

Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, so if he has never stood fo the light of the truth how can Satan be a light bearer??????

Also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not.



When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question. It is written of Jesus when He had turned water into wine, "THIS BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (Jn. 2:11). This means, simply, that the miraculous aspect of the ministry of Jesus Christ had as its originating point this miracle of the water turned into wine. He had performed no miracles before this time, but from this day forth many more were to follow. This, so far as His miracles were concerned, was "the beginning." Thus we may clearly see that if something is manifested in a certain form "from the beginning" that means that from the time it was first formed, established, and came into being it has been in that condition.
The scriptures clearly declare that Satan was a liar from his beginning that is the way"God" created Satan. If God created the waster to didtroy then how can he first be a angle, he was created a liar a murderer never an angel.

Scriptures does not say: "beginning of time, the beginning of man, the beginning of the fall" this is but an interpetation. The whole issue is Satan was never an angel who rebeled from God. God is in complete control of Satan and Satan has no power unless God ordains it.

I can agree that Lucifer wasn't an actual name for Satan, it's just become a synonymn. But as for Satan being a liar from the beginning, yea, he was, but what does it mean 'the beginning'? The beginning of time, the beginning of man, the beginning of the fall?
You interpret it as being the beginning of the 1st day, we interpret it as being the beginning of the end of the 1st day, when God "divided the light from the darkness".quote]

 

[467AIR]

evil, isn't God the creator of evil?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Here is some further detail as to how He makes use of the "evil factor":
Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
This is not to "blame" God for evil, but to simply clarify that evil is also a tool He uses in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning.

This "beginning" is not to be understood as the first beginning. For in life there are many beginnings.

God did NOT create Satan as a liar and a murderer anymore than He created man to be a liar and murderer.

God created Satan as the most perfect angel and gave Satan free will to tell the truth (which sometimes Satan did and does) and also to lie.

Satan CHOSE (and chooses) to lie and murder on account of the free will the LORD hath given him (Job 1:12).

because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.

Since Jesus is the truth (John 14:6) what he means is that there is no Jesus in him i.e. no love in him. When Jesus says "when he speaketh a lie" implies there are times when Satan told and tells the truth (e.g. in Genesis and Job).

If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings?

Umm ... let me guess: he doesn't.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Rome as past down thought the ages that Lucifer is Satan, problem is this cannot be.

Lucifer is the Morning Star which is the planet Venus.

Lucifer was an agent of Satan (destruction).

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:" -- Revelation 12:4

Satan is a creation of God not as a angel but a liar and a murderer.

I disagree.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." -- Job 1:6

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The word Lucifer means light in Latin I believe and if I am not mistaken, that name is only found in both KJV and NKJV. No other translations I believe use the word Lucifer.

You're right, Lucifer cannot be a description of Satan because Satan is not light.

 

[Soul Searcher]

True Lucifer is not Satan. In fact the passage where the word Lucifer appears is not talking about Satan or any other supernatural being it is refering to the King of Babylon and his fall from glory to death. The word is Latin and was improperly translated yet many people are sure that this story is about Satans fall from grace. Sad really that people pay so little attention to the book they believe to be devine.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The word Lucifer means light in Latin I believe and if I am not mistaken, that name is only found in both KJV and NKJV. No other translations I believe use the word Lucifer.

You're right, Lucifer cannot be a description of Satan because Satan is not light.

It is in the KJV for sure. It is not in the MKJV. I do not have the NKJV.

It is also in Websters which for the most part seems to be a carbon copy of the KJV.

 

[agape101]

I can agree that Lucifer wasn't an actual name for Satan, it's just become a synonymn. But as for Satan being a liar from the beginning, yea, he was, but what does it mean 'the beginning'? The beginning of time, the beginning of man, the beginning of the fall?
You interpret it as being the beginning of the 1st day, we interpret it as being the beginning of the end of the 1st day, when God "divided the light from the darkness".
Also, if God created Satan evil, isn't God the creator of evil?

Yes God created evil. also kills, mames, makes vessels of dishonor, sends lying spirits to the mouths of 400 prophets, leads jesus to be tempted by the devil, hardens hearts, unleashes satan on job, binds up satan for 1000 years then releases him again to "decieve" the nations, sacrificed his own son, created all principalities and authorities- all things visible and invisible. All things were made by him, for him, and held together through him. The ends justify the means with God. Look at the reason God hardened pharaoh's heart. it wasn't just to be mean. It was so His name be proclaimed throughout the earth.


btw- I find it odd that you abhor the idea that God created evil, yet you could still subscribe to the belief that he created a place where his lost flock would be tortured forever....

If the end of evil and death were neverending torture then it would all be a travesty, but if the end of misery and affliction is grace, mercy, love and the vification and restoration of all creation to God- then there was a purpose for all that evil and death.

 

[agape101]

Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.

Satan was a created adversary from the beginning? I thought Satan was ruining God's plan this whole time while God was doing nothing to stop it... hmm. Here's a simple question: if satan is ruining God's plan then why doesn't God just destroy satan? However- we find the opposite in scripture. Satan is deployed by God. It is the spirit who leads Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. It is God who gives permission for satan to "destroy" Job's life- with restrictions btw. and it is written in revelation that satan will be bound for a thousand years then released to "deceive the nations." Here you have a glimpse of the purpose of the waster. God created him to destroy. He has only the authority given him by God. Don't you think it is contrary to orthodoxy that God will release satan for the purpose of deceiving the nations? If he will do that in the future- isn't he trying to do that now? Doesn't that mean he has been granted authority to try to decieve us? Decieve the nations now? Where is his opposition? God has given an authority to satan to destroy and deceive in this age. He will bind him up for a thousand in one of the ages to come, then release him again for the same destructive purpose. Why? I am obligated through reason to deduce that SATAN is a created adversary- made for a time period and prepared for destruction. Satan has no power that God has not given him. God can take it away and destroy him at any time, yet He doesn't.

again; the ends justify the means with God. after destruction, death, and affliction, comes restoration, life, and grace and mercy and love. God's ultimate end involves the restitution of all things. Where justice means (to make all things right with God). He will make all things right at the end of the ages.


bravo- btw- very pointed and accurate op- pardon my rambling... ;-)

 

[agape101]

SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus not my opinion as all you seem to depend on, this should be enough to settle the querying minds of all, that he was never a shining angel of light. He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44;

Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, so if he has never stood fo the light of the truth how can Satan be a light bearer??????

Also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not.



When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question. It is written of Jesus when He had turned water into wine, "THIS BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (Jn. 2:11). This means, simply, that the miraculous aspect of the ministry of Jesus Christ had as its originating point this miracle of the water turned into wine. He had performed no miracles before this time, but from this day forth many more were to follow. This, so far as His miracles were concerned, was "the beginning." Thus we may clearly see that if something is manifested in a certain form "from the beginning" that means that from the time it was first formed, established, and came into being it has been in that condition.
The scriptures clearly declare that Satan was a liar from his beginning that is the way"God" created Satan. If God created the waster to didtroy then how can he first be a angle, he was created a liar a murderer never an angel.

Scriptures does not say: "beginning of time, the beginning of man, the beginning of the fall" this is but an interpetation. The whole issue is Satan was never an angel who rebeled from God. God is in complete control of Satan and Satan has no power unless God ordains it.

I can agree that Lucifer wasn't an actual name for Satan, it's just become a synonymn. But as for Satan being a liar from the beginning, yea, he was, but what does it mean 'the beginning'? The beginning of time, the beginning of man, the beginning of the fall?
You interpret it as being the beginning of the 1st day, we interpret it as being the beginning of the end of the 1st day, when God "divided the light from the darkness".quote]

I agree- I think the argument doesn't even need to go so far as giving credence to a midieval fairytale such ad this one. If someone wants to claim that satan is a fallen angel named lucifer that once was some sort of important being in God's realm, then they should do so with a presentation of a case including a premise and evidence.

THIS CASE GETS THROWN OUT immediately if you try to use a latin term "lucifer" in it in the first place. My bible is not in latin and the codeces used to translate the bibles I use aren't translated from latin. Therefore, show me where "lucifer" is in my bible....

My bible has no latin in it. "lucifer" does not appear in my bible. Why should I subscribe to a story of a person who is not even named in the bible I'm reading?

argument hereby destroyed; you're welcome.

 

[agape101]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Here is some further detail as to how He makes use of the "evil factor":
Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
This is not to "blame" God for evil, but to simply clarify that evil is also a tool He uses in the grand scheme of things.

Beautiful. Thank you.

 

[agape101]

The word Lucifer means light in Latin I believe and if I am not mistaken, that name is only found in both KJV and NKJV. No other translations I believe use the word Lucifer.

You're right, Lucifer cannot be a description of Satan because Satan is not light.

It comes from the same latin root where we get our english words; lucid, translucent. Spanish; luz = light, If I knew other latin languages I'm sure I could come up with more examples. But you are correct.