Sans Scripture, Evolution?

[Tomk80]

The prevailing Scriptures in 1490 was the AV1389 Wycliffe Version - in English.

Which wycliffe version? You talk about it as if there is only one version of it, which is not true. There are multiple Wycliff versions available.

It was the KJV of It's time, and I'm sure there were people who were WVO - (Wycliffe Version Only).

Doubtful, given that the Wycliffe version was unauthorized.

 

[AV1611VET]

Could it be because popularity, not God, was behind it?

Both, I hope --- as if I even care.

That's ancient history to me, and surely you're not advocating we emulate that, are you?

Let's just all turn in our Bibles and listen to the clergy?

Is that your point?

 

[Tomk80]

Not hard to understand at all. Do I believe it though? Not for a second.

That, of course, does not surprise anyone here for a second. Your adherence to truth has always been minimal.

Facts can take a hike.
Reality can take a hike.
Truth can take a hike.

It all can take a hike as long as you can keep worshipping your own ideas, unhindered by any historical knowledge, context or accuracy.

 

[Split Rock]

That is correct --- the Geneva Bible, of which I have a copy, was God's choice for the Pilgrims and early America. Why? I don't know, but after independence was declared from England, the King James Version took the throne as God's choice for the world.

ETA: just FYI, we are not, nor ever have been, Protestants.

So... God changed his mind on which version of the Bible was his True Inerrant Word? Fascinating. You make less and less sense the more you argue.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

That is correct --- the Geneva Bible, of which I have a copy, was God's choice for the Pilgrims and early America. Why? I don't know, but after independence was declared from England, the King James Version took the throne as God's choice for the world.

ETA: just FYI, we are not, nor ever have been, Protestants.

So god’s truth changes with time, or are more recent people being deceived by the devil, I mean everything else is blamed on the devil, perhaps he is responsible for the KJB.

The one thing that is absolutely clear from this thread is that the content of the bible/s has changed greatly over time and is not, I repeat “is not” a true representation of the original text or the early Jewish region, which Christianity is an off shot of.

So any creationist stories cannot be taken seriously in light of the fact that the bible has changes dramatically through time.

YECs paradigms have changed through time, thus cannot be taken seriously; case closed.

 

[AV1611VET]

It all can take a hike as long as you can keep worshipping your own ideas, unhindered by any historical knowledge, context or accuracy.

I thought it was the Bible I was worshipping?

 

[Tomk80]

I thought it was the Bible I was worshipping?

Not as far as I'm concerned. I've stated before that you worship your own ideas. The more you post, the more I'm convinced that this is the case.

 

[AV1611VET]

The one thing that is absolutely clear from this thread is that the content of the bible/s has changed greatly over time and is not, I repeat “is not” a true representation of the original text or the early Jewish region, which Christianity is an off shot of.

Show me a passage from the Geneva Bible, and the same passage from the King James Bible that contradicts it.

Here's the Johanine Comma, one of the most, if not the most, controversial passages in all of Scripture:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

For there are three, which beare recorde in heauen, the Father, the Worde, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Don't tell me the content of the Bibles have changed over a period of time --- tell your know-nothing ignorant scientific colleagues --- they'll fall for it.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Both, I hope --- as if I even care.

Yes I know, history can take a hike, right?

That's ancient history to me, and surely you're not advocating we emulate that, are you?

No, but I might suggest that you already are. When history takes a hike, it tends to sneak back in.

Let's just all turn in our Bibles and listen to the clergy?

Is that your point?

You seem to be way ahead of me on that one -- you've already decided that God speaks to you through this Bible but not that one.

Even if you're worshipping the right book, it's still the wrong God.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Show me a passage from the Geneva Bible, and the same passage from the King James Bible that contradicts it.

Here's the Johanine Comma, one of the most, if not the most, controversial passages in all of Scripture:

Don't tell me the content of the Bibles have changed over a period of time --- tell your know-nothing ignorant scientific colleagues --- they'll fall for it.

Here's a few changes made to the bible through time; all in bold has been removed in most modern bibles

Matthew1:25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.5:44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;6:13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.6:33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.8:29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?9:13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.12:35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.13:51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.15:8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.16:3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?16:20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.18:11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.19:9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.20:7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.20:16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.20:22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.23:14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.25:13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.27:35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.28:9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.Mark1:14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,1:31And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she ministered unto them.2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.6:11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.6:16But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.7:8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.7:16If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.9:42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.9:44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.9:46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.9:49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.10:21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.11:10Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:13:33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.14:68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.15:28And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.16:9-20

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(typically marginalized or set in brackets. Footnotes in NIV are patently false.)Luke1:28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.4:4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.4:8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.4:41And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.7:31And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?9:54-56And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.11:2-4And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.11:29And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.17:36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.21:4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.22:31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:22:64And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?23:17(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)23:38And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.23:42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.24:6He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,24:40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.24:51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.John1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.1:27He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.3:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.5:3-4In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.6:69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.11:41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.16:16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Tiberius]

How would I know?

If I had to guess, I would say 100 AD --- and if "priests" were reading the Bible in church, you can bet they were reading them at home as well. If I was a "priest" back then, I'd make sure the members of my congregation had One too.

You guess?

GUESS?

You, probably the biggest Bible pusher I have ever met in my whole entire life, and you don't even know when the Bible in any form became freely available?

let me educate you.

read THIS site and then THIS Wiki article. As you'll see, the first time that common people had access to a Bible that they could own and read in their own homes was after William Tyndale translated it into English. This was in the year 1525. You are more than 1400 years too early.

So, when we look at this post...

There are two major documents we are taught to stay away from --- Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus for two good reasons:

1. These are considered the oldest. Why? Because the common people never used them. Thus they were preserved by disuse.*
2. Codex Sinaiticus was found in a trash can, and Codex Vaticanus was found locked in the Vatican, well out of reach of the common people.

* Whenever you see a footnote say "oldest manuscript says...", or "better manuscript says...", never rely on it - ever. The common people rejected these manuscripts and refused to use them.

These versions of the Bible were in the 3rd and 4th century. You claim that the common people didn't use them because they weren't the best manuscript. I've demonstrated that this position is wrong. The common people didn't use them because the common people never even had a Bible that they themselves could use until 1200 years later!

Until then, they relied on being read the Bible at church. As said in the first thing I linked to, "Having God's Word available to the public in the language of the common man, English, would have meant disaster to the church. No longer would they control access to the scriptures. If people were able to read the Bible in their own tongue, the church's income and power would crumble."

And it is true. The church today has nowhere near the power it had back then.

Your claim is just plain wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

As you'll see, the first time that common people had access to a Bible that they could own and read in their own homes was after William Tyndale translated it into English. This was in the year 1525. You are more than 1400 years too early.

Are you talking about the English-speaking people? If so, I'm not. What about the AV330 Gothic Version that Ulfilas translated into his own language? What about the AV1389 Wycliffe Version?

 

[Tomk80]

YThese versions of the Bible were in the 3rd and 4th century. You claim that the common people didn't use them because they weren't the best manuscript. I've demonstrated that this position is wrong. The common people didn't use them because the common people never even had a Bible that they themselves could use until 1200 years later!

Until then, they relied on being read the Bible at church. As said in the first thing I linked to, "Having God's Word available to the public in the language of the common man, English, would have meant disaster to the church. No longer would they control access to the scriptures. If people were able to read the Bible in their own tongue, the church's income and power would crumble."

And it is true. The church today has nowhere near the power it had back then.

Your claim is just plain wrong.

A strange parallel with scientology, in fact. Scientologists are generally not shown the complete works of Hubbard until the have been indoctrinated into the cult for a long time. They have long resisted, and still resist, getting these works out in the open. Christianity before the 1600's shows the same pattern of trying to shield the bible from the masses.

 

[AV1611VET]

Tiberius, I'm quoting from In Awe of Thy Word, by Gail A. Riplinger, pp. 676-677:

Foxe gives seven proofs that the gospel spread over England, from the time of the apostles through the sixth century - long before Rome's emissaries arrived. He writes: "The first I take of the testimony of Gildas [writing in A.D. 633], our countryman; who in his history affirmeth plainly, that Britain received the gospel in the time of Tiberius, the emperor, under whom Christ suffered; and saith moreover, that Joseph of Aramathea, after the dispersion of the early church by the Jews, was sent of Philip the apostle from France to Britain, about the year of our Lord 63, and here remained in this land all his time; and so, with his followers, laid the first foundation of Christian faith among the British people, whereupon other preachers and teachers coming afterward, confirmed the same and increased it."

...

William of Malmesbury, writing in the 1100s, reconfirms that Christianity was brought to Britain by at least the year A.D. 63, by Joseph of Arimathea with 12 companions.

 

[Tomk80]

Tiberius, I'm quoting from In Awe of Thy Word, by Gail A. Riplinger, pp. 676-677:

Why would this point to the universal availability of scripture in written form?

 

[Tomk80]

Are you talking about the English-speaking people? If so, I'm not. What about the AV330 Gothic Version that Ulfilas translated into his own language?

Which was not available to the common people. It was a single effort, no other copies of the book were made.

What about the AV1389 Wycliffe Version?

That one probably was relatively well available. This has little to do with whether people thought it was good or not, but rather because it was the only bible available in native tongue for the english at the time. But why pick the 1389 version? Why not the early or late versions?

 

[Tiberius]

Are you talking about the English-speaking people? If so, I'm not. What about the AV330 Gothic Version that Ulfilas translated into his own language? What about the AV1389 Wycliffe Version?

And was this available to many people? Were these many people able to take this version of the Bible into their own homes and read it whenever they wanted?

Tiberius, I'm quoting from In Awe of Thy Word, by Gail A. Riplinger, pp. 676-677:

Foxe gives seven proofs that the gospel spread over England, from the time of the apostles through the sixth century - long before Rome's emissaries arrived. He writes: "The first I take of the testimony of Gildas [writing in A.D. 633], our countryman; who in his history affirmeth plainly, that Britain received the gospel in the time of Tiberius, the emperor, under whom Christ suffered; and saith moreover, that Joseph of Aramathea, after the dispersion of the early church by the Jews, was sent of Philip the apostle from France to Britain, about the year of our Lord 63, and here remained in this land all his time; and so, with his followers, laid the first foundation of Christian faith among the British people, whereupon other preachers and teachers coming afterward, confirmed the same and increased it."

...

William of Malmesbury, writing in the 1100s, reconfirms that Christianity was brought to Britain by at least the year A.D. 63, by Joseph of Arimathea with 12 companions.

I'm not denying that there were versions of the Bible in britian before 1525. I am saying that until 1525 people weren't able to have their own personal copies of the Bible to read in their own homes.

 

[Tomk80]

And was this available to many people? Were these many people able to take this version of the Bible into their own homes and read it whenever they wanted?

Regarding the gothic text, definitely not. As far as I can tell, only one copy of it was ever made.

The Wycliffe versions at least have been more widely distributed, given that we have some 250 (partial) copies of these even now. However, they come before the invention of the printing press, which means they had to be copied manually. This means they would have been very expensive and not available to the general public. Only the wealthy would have one in their possession. Literacy in those times probably wasn't too wide spread either.

I'm not denying that there were versions of the Bible in britian before 1525. I am saying that until 1525 people weren't able to have their own personal copies of the Bible to read in their own homes.

Note tha the quote from AV wouldn't have necessitated a printed bible. Word of mouth would have been a different, possible route to spread the gospel. Given the illiteracy in those times, this is the more likely option.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Note tha the quote from AV wouldn't have necessitated a printed bible. Word of mouth would have been a different, possible route to spread the gospel. Given the illiteracy in those times, this is the more likely option.

The few printed Bibles which would've existed would've been in the hands of either the elite few, or the Church itself -- both of whom jealously guarded their secrets.

Thus, the only source for Scripture for the masses would've been out of the mouths of the people in power -- how much incentive do they ever have to tell the truth?

 

[Herman Hedning]

Are you talking about the English-speaking people? If so, I'm not. What about the AV330 Gothic Version that Ulfilas translated into his own language? What about the AV1389 Wycliffe Version?

Repeating what has been said many times already: Before the invention of the printing press, books where rare and incredibly expensive. Only rich churches and nobility could afford to have any. As for AV330, yes, a few copies where made. The most famous is the Codex Argenteus, written some 200 years after Wulfilas original translation. That, by the way, is a pretty bad translation from the greek original, and would have sounded very strange to a Gothic speaker of the day - maybe something like KJV does to us today.