Same tree?

Tone said:

I was a speaking of the time of Eve's testing (trial)...the account says she and the serpent were having a conversation and the Creator didn't intervene. Then, after they (Adam & Eve) both had eaten of the tree, the Creator returns.

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I liked the thought behind thread,

Tone said:

...wait wut?...

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No wait, no wut.

I liked your wondering if they were the same tree or not.

Tone said:

Oh yeah, that's kinda worn off. I like this from Hazelelponi:

"No. Not the same tree. Matthew 7:18states:

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Also:

1 Corinthians 15:45-48"

This, plus the rest of this discussion kind of cleared it up for me.

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Yeah, that,s what they all say, as if they bear good fruit themselves.

There is a certain kind of tree that does not bear fruit until it is 70 years or more.

"Just as the olive yields light only when it is pounded,

so are man,s greatest potentials realized under the pressure
of adversity."

(Talmud)

Tone said:

I think she was just saying that, in the case of the two trees mentioned in Eden, one was good and the other was evil, so yeah...good is definitely not evil, so they couldn't be the same tree. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought forth death so it must be the evil tree.



70 years or more huh, what kind is that?

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I wish I had noted the specie, but I did not,

Tone said:

I think she was just saying that, in the case of the two trees mentioned in Eden, one was good and the other was evil, so yeah...good is definitely not evil, so they couldn't be the same tree. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought forth death so it must be the evil tree.



70 years or more huh, what kind is that?

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The way to the tree of life is barred and guarded by the revolving sword.

Just in case someone pops up proclaiming that he gives life eternal, just by believing him.

And being proclaimed a deity.

Tone said:

Maybe the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the enemy, and the tree of life is Messiah...

The tree of life is eternal life and the way is Messiah, Who, until He came to be nailed to a tree, was gaurded by the two cherubim.

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This is kind of how I came to understand these two trees as well. The tree of good and evil is the world, where both good and evil exist, and the serpent is the enemy, the evil whisperer, tempting us to be bound to the dust and to die. The Tree of Life is the gift of Christ. He has offered us eternal life!

Tone said:

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the midst of the garden...where was the tree of life...are they one and the same...the former being the result of a carnal approach and the latter being the fruit of a real faith and in spirit?

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In the narrative they are two very different trees.

-CryptoLutheran

This thread illustrates the difficulties of discussing myths that have been appropriated and retconned by at LEAST three different religions (not counting the various substrata of each of these, some of which are distinct enough to merit their own entry on the list).
Even if we were to go solely by what the text(s) say(s), we'd already be burdened by millennia of exegetic tradition, coming to a different conclusion for each distinct faith.
Earliest Talmudic references to the Serpent make it perfectly clear that proto-Judaism regarded this creature as a literal snake, for example, not a secret disguise of a rogue angel.
Likewise, some Christian traditions hold that El's address to his assembled sons (a leftover from the Canaanite roots of these texts) is a first reference to the Trinity, with the Father talking to the Son and Spirit. (Jews, by contrast, will assert it's a majestic plural, and G_d's just prone to monologuing.)
And now we've got people claiming that one of the Trees was planted by Satan. I never heard that one before, to be honest. I know neo-Gnostics who seize upon the notion that Biblegod is the Demiurge, and the Serpent is the Spirit rescuing Man from imprisonment in a faulty creation - but even there, the Trees are very much part of the Garden as planned.

Tone said:

Maybe the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the enemy, and the tree of life is Messiah...

Or

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is utter death and the way is through the serpent.

And

The tree of life is eternal life and the way is Messiah, Who, until He came to be nailed to a tree, was gaurded by the two cherubim.

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The essence of the narrative is similar to many other myths--why things are the way they are (and how they aren't all that good). The ancient Greeks had the story of Pandora and her box, the unleashing of all that evil into the world is what brought humanity from its golden age into the state we see it today.

The biblical narrative in Genesis is this: the Creator God made everything good, but yet we look around and see that things aren't good. There's suffering and death all around us. The point of the story is to capture this idea, that things really aren't the way they ought to be.

The Christian interpretation of the story has been that the serpent is to be regarded as the devil (the text makes no effort to make this claim, this idea comes much later), the original or ancestral sin which has fundamentally infected ourselves and the rest of creation is human disobedience and rebellion. To know not only the good things of God and the life He has given, but also evil, death, and suffering. Human beings become culpable of moral evil in the universe as unique moral agents, as unique creatures who were made to bear the Divine Image (as distinct from the rest of animal life and the created order). And thus as the stewards, caretakers, and moral agents made to tend to this world of ours we chose death, suffering, and waywardness from God. In other words, the reason why things aren't great is because we screwed it up; and the net flow of the entire biblical drama is ultimately to be found in the coming of Jesus Christ who is the One to save us--and all of creation--from this mess and to bring the entirety of God's creation to be what it is supposed to be--"exceedingly good". But the Christian Gospel is not some Platonic cycle of fall and returning to the original condition; but something better than that. The Age to Come and restoration of all creation is not Eden 2.0, it is better, it is what Eden was ultimately supposed to become, the reality of which is found in Christ Himself.

I mention the "Christian interpretation" here quite broadly, I'm not talking about literal interpretations or allegorical interpretation or the like, but instead how Christianity has broadly taken the purpose of the text within the grand scope of the redemptive drama centered on Jesus; as the Christian use of all biblical Scripture is firmly Christocentric, Jesus gives meaning and theme to the entire biblical narrative in Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

Tone said:

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the midst of the garden...where was the tree of life...are they one and the same...the former being the result of a carnal approach and the latter being the fruit of a real faith and in spirit?

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The account is so lacking it invites to many hours of pondering,
if one is inclined to do so.

I just try and compare it with coming into this world.

I knew nothing, but when I opened my eyes and saw,
sky. grass, birds, fish, cattle, etc,

then I think of Adam how he must have experienced it.

But he must have known more than story tells.

Otherwise the conversation may have been something like;

"Of the fruit of that tree you shall not eat, because on that day you will die.
Do you understand?"

"Well, of course I understand, why would I not understand?

I mean just been created, cannot say I have seen anyone come and go yet."

Today, thousands of years later not all are in agreement with what, "To die," means either.

Just something that is often swept under the carpet.

Would seem.

Robban said:

The account is so lacking it invites to many hours of pondering,
if one is inclined to do so.

I just try and compare it with coming into this world.

I knew nothing, but when I opened my eyes and saw,
sky. grass, birds, fish, cattle, etc,

then I think of Adam how he must have experienced it.

But he must have known more than story tells.

Otherwise the conversation may have been something like;

"Of the fruit of that tree you shall not eat, because on that day you will die.
Do you understand?"

"Well, of course I understand, why would I not understand?

I mean just been created, cannot say I have seen anyone come and go yet."

Today, thousands of years later not all are in agreement with what, "To die," means either.

Just something that is often swept under the carpet.

Would seem.

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It is so sad. There is much wisdom in understanding the detail of the "eating" of the "fruit" - knowing that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was always there for them to admire, but it was not to be the way of life for them.

They could have a way of life (eating) by any fruit or herb of the garden, because that was it's valid purpose .. but to use the product of the knowledge of good and evil for the way of life, to grow and to be satisfied (Genesis 3:6), that is where sin gets to have it's way in the world, and people are forced to conceal their deeds with deceit (ie: not walking in the light, that is the "life" of mankind: John 1:4, John 3:20, 1 John 2:9-10).

Those who don't simply live according to the valid way, but who reckon whether good and evil will be profitable for them - that is the "eating" of the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" - they have to conceal their true intentions by lying and making pacts of loyalty to cooperate for a wicked purpose. That is the cause of unfair suffering.

(IOW: the world would be a paradise if everyone only ever did what was good by their conscience).

Tone said:

I think this has to do with the mark of the beast...

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Could you explain that idea a bit more?