Same Name

[heymikey80]

I think there are some interesting aspects to this initial posting.

Who truly defines Israel? I don't mean the small state on the corner of the Mediterranean. I mean the Israel that pre-existed that state, that existed afterward, that exists today. Who defines what it is?

How is it defined? Is it defined as the state -- the vassal state -- of First Century Rome? Is it defined as the vassal states under Assyrian and Babylonian influence? Maybe the nation founded in 1948?

The terms used by God to define the people He calls Israel are correspondingly applied to the Church of Christ.

There are indeed distinctions. But does God intend the people of Israel to be separately and specifically recipients of promises different from the Church? Where is this explicitly stated?

There are reasons to want to find this explicitly stated -- because the contrary is both strongly implied in some cases in Eph 2, as well as directly stated in other cases in Eph 2 -- that these people are no longer aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, but fellow-citizens with them and members of God's family.

To answer Lamorak about "true Israel", God does have a particular people in view when He speaks of Israel: they're the promised people of God in some cases, and the visible people of God in other cases. And there could definitely be more meanings intended by God there. Many systematic theologies would think one of those groups is "true", the other "apparent". But as the term "Israel" is used in multiple senses in Scripture at some point we really need to distinguish them ourselves and decide which ones we're truly talking about.

The same is true of the Church. Is everyone who signs up to membership in a Church Christian, raised to the heavens with Christ? That alone would draw quite a few comments; I think we can agree, "No", here. But to say that we have to distinguish the different meanings of the term "church" used in Scripture as well.

And some meanings matter more than others. Those theologies I've talked about before, then identify those meanings that matter the most as "true" churches, and "true" Israel.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Hi foundinhim,

The synogogue is full of AntiChrists and the Church is full of the people of God, a holy nation, the flock of God, the wife of God, the seed of Abraham. Big difference!!!!

A Pauline Dispensatioanlist would disagree on the basis that the church, or those who makeup the church (seeing we don't believe that the Body of Christ and Israel are synonymous) are not a nation, nor have we ever been one will ever be.

Exodus 19:6
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

Peter makes reference to this scripture from Exodus in his epistle.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Now, while I agree that there are many horizontal truths found throughout the Bible, such as God's righteousness, justice, and holiness; not to mention mans total depravity and need of an election and an atonement; I not persuaded that Peter was refering to the Body, but to the remnant of Israel.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/roi/I Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christhttp://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/roi/

 

[heymikey80]

A Pauline Dispensatioanlist would disagree on the basis that the church, or those who makeup the church (seeing we don't believe that the Body of Christ and Israel are synonymous) are not a nation, nor have we ever been one will ever be.

Exodus 19:6
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

Peter makes reference to this scripture from Exodus in his epistle.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Now, while I agree that there are many horizontal truths found throughout the Bible, such as God's righteousness, justice, and holiness; not to mention mans total depravity and need of an election and an atonement; I not persuaded that Peter was refering to the Body, but to the remnant of Israel.

I Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

I'd certainly agree with you that Paul is not saying the Gentiles have become citizens of Judea or the Jewish nation. But I think Paul's complaint is that the Judeans are not the citizens of God's nation as He intended it (cf Rom 9:6-7). Instead to Paul God actually intended to found this other-worldy empire, based not on rules of human government but of Spiritual authority:

so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God Ep 2:19
​

The existence of the nation of Israel in the land thus isn't really the rule God intended for His people -- even in Sinai's time -- but instead God sought the start of a worldwide Empire based on submission to the Throne of Christ, of God, in the power of the Spirit.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

How is it defined? Is it defined as the state -- the vassal state -- of First Century Rome? Is it defined as the vassal states under Assyrian and Babylonian influence? Maybe the nation founded in 1948?

I don't define Israel so much as a political entity; rather Israel is a people. According to the exilic prophet Daniel Israel is defined in Dan 9:7 as
-- the men of Judah and people of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us...

As a group of people, Israel is in a specific covenant relationship with the LORD. This covenant relationship is the basis for which the LORD pronounces judgment and blessing on them.

The terms used by God to define the people He calls Israel are correspondingly applied to the Church of Christ.

There are indeed distinctions. But does God intend the people of Israel to be separately and specifically recipients of promises different from the Church? Where is this explicitly stated?

What are you defining as "Israel" and as the "Church"?

I hold that Israel consists of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. Israel is in a covenant relationship with God - there are specific Biblical covenants with promises and stipulations that God has covenanted with Israel as a whole. There are certain land promises associated with Israel. And one of the Biblical requirements of Jews is that they be circumcised.

The church - begun on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 - first consisted of believing Jews, and later believing Gentiles were added (Acts 10). Certain new covenant promises began with the church, such as the promise of the Holy Spirit. While believing Gentiles are members of the church and share in some of the new covenant blessings, believing Gentiles are not members of Israel. The church is a new entity - made up of believing Jews and Gentiles.

So I hold that there is some overlap between the church and Israel. That is, the believing Jews in this age of grace - i.e. Peter, Paul, John - are simultaneously members of Israel and members of the church. Believing Gentiles are members of the church, but they are not members of Israel. For example, believing Gentiles were not required to be circumcised. Cornelius didn't become a Jew. The Galatian Gentiles didn't become Jews. Titus didn't become a Jew. But Timothy was circumcised, and he did become a Jew to witness to the Jews.

To answer Lamorak about "true Israel", God does have a particular people in view when He speaks of Israel: they're the promised people of God in some cases, and the visible people of God in other cases. And there could definitely be more meanings intended by God there. Many systematic theologies would think one of those groups is "true", the other "apparent". But as the term "Israel" is used in multiple senses in Scripture at some point we really need to distinguish them ourselves and decide which ones we're truly talking about.

I wholeheartedly agree that the definitions of terms used in this discussion need to ultimately refer to Scripture passages and Scripture usage.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[heymikey80]

I don't define Israel so much as a political entity; rather Israel is a people. According to the exilic prophet Daniel Israel is defined in Dan 9:7 as
-- the men of Judah and people of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us...

I think dealing with Israel as an ethnic or political boundary runs contrary to the clear statement of God in terms of defining Israel. Israel is anyone truly allying himself with the people of God. In ancient times that would demand his loyalty to the God Whom they served.

It certainly would've implied some visible signs of loyalty -- circumcision, adherence to the Law God gave. But of course outward signs can't be the definition. As Paul said, "A Jew isn't one outwardly, but inwardly."

As a group of people, Israel is in a specific covenant relationship with the LORD. This covenant relationship is the basis for which the LORD pronounces judgment and blessing on them.

That covenant is spiritual, is it not? It's meant to accomplish something spiritual, not physical. It may have outward signs, but it has an inward meaning.

What are you defining as "Israel" and as the "Church"?

I asked you first! Seriously, that's definitely the basic problem here. I think we talk past this issue too often, hijacking each others' definitions and trying to apply them in unusual ways. I have a feeling I'm about to do just that, so ... um, bear with me. I'm obstinate, but I do mean to further my understanding by saying plainly what's got me gigged on this issue.

I hold that Israel consists of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. Israel is in a covenant relationship with God - there are specific Biblical covenants with promises and stipulations that God has covenanted with Israel as a whole. There are certain land promises associated with Israel. And one of the Biblical requirements of Jews is that they be circumcised.

Which to some extent I would agree. But I hold that the Church consists of believing Christians and unbelieving Christians. The Church is in a covenant relationship with God.

As the covenant relationship with Israel was with God and by God, it's a spiritual relationship. Whatever specific physical promises and benefits were instituted by God serve a spiritual purpose which must either be fulfilled, or must still apply. According to Paul those purposes have been leveled, so that God's purposes for both Jew and Gentile are now the same (Rom 11:27). And coincidentally it's at that point that the Church appears, inviting Gentiles into fellow-citizenship in God's Kingdom with the Jews.

As a physical religion (e.g., circumcision and sacrifice), as a human national entity (e.g., Judean citizenship), it's clear the church is not Israel in either of these senses. But as the reason-for-being for the physical religion; as the very spiritual definition behind the national entity; these things are not nearly so clear to me.

The church - begun on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 - first consisted of believing Jews, and later believing Gentiles were added (Acts 10). Certain new covenant promises began with the church, such as the promise of the Holy Spirit. While believing Gentiles are members of the church and share in some of the new covenant blessings, believing Gentiles are not members of Israel. The church is a new entity - made up of believing Jews and Gentiles.

Mmm, the promise of the Spirit was to the Jewish people:

But now hear, O Jacob my servant,
Israel whom I have chosen!
Thus says the LORD who made you,
who formed you from the womb and will help you:
Fear not, O Jacob my servant,
Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants. Is 44:1-3

Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.' And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. Ezek 11:17-19

Then he remembered the days of old,
of Moses and his people.
Where is he who brought them up out of the sea
with the shepherds of his flock?
Where is he who put in the midst of them
his Holy Spirit, Is 63:11
​

True, it was also promised "on all flesh" ... um, by the prophet Joel ... spoken to the Jewish people under the auspices of the covenant with Israel. That was on all flesh, and then Joel says to Israel, "your own sons, even your own daughters will get it."

So I hold that there is some overlap between the church and Israel. That is, the believing Jews in this age of grace - i.e. Peter, Paul, John - are simultaneously members of Israel and members of the church. Believing Gentiles are members of the church, but they are not members of Israel. For example, believing Gentiles were not required to be circumcised. Cornelius didn't become a Jew. The Galatian Gentiles didn't become Jews. Titus didn't become a Jew. But Timothy was circumcised, and he did become a Jew to witness to the Jews.

I think the overlap in a number of spiritual senses (and I don't mean figurative) is far more comprehensive. Paul talks about the Christians as being circumcised, though not physically (Col, somewhere). Paul talks about the Christians as being "once aliens of the commonwealth of Israel", but now "fellow-citizens" (Ep 2). Paul talks about real insight into Moses coming through the New Covenant (2 Cor 3). I think Paul is very effective in stating that whatever Judaism "is" -- nationally, corporately, spiritually -- he seems to point at the church in some sense as being that, too. Though Paul rejects outright (as in, Galatians), the idea that Christian Gentiles should truly join the citizenry of Judea. Paul can also say with confidence, "not all Israel is Israel." (Rom 9) If Paul always had the meaning being attributed to Israel, that of "the men of Judah" in Daniel, I can't account for why Paul is saying such things. Such men are the ethnic people of Judah.

 

[stratt]

just trying to view my character

 

[eph3Nine]

just trying to view my character

Ooooooo that is ONE scary dude...LOL...wink.