SALVATION

[Ain't Zwinglian]

“"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.” (Lu 1:15 NKJV)

Nothing about him believing as a baby.

What a joke! Being filled with the HS is conversion!

Where does Scripture say being filled with the HS is NOT conversion?

Are you stating being filled with the HS is unbelief? I guess there is one thing God cannot do....give the gift of faith before someone reaches the Age of Accountability. That is His limitation. This is some messed up theology.

I can't wait to share this on Sunday at church.
-----------

I am out of this conversation.....permanently.

 

[David Lamb]

What a joke! Being filled with the HS is conversion!

Where does Scripture say being filled with the HS is NOT conversion?

Are you stating being filled with the HS is unbelief? I guess there is one thing God cannot do....give the gift of faith before someone reaches the Age of Accountability. That is His limitation. This is some messed up theology.

I can't wait to share this on Sunday at church.
-----------

I am out of this conversation.....permanently.

Call it a joke if you like, but we simply are not told that a baby can believe. (I'm not saying that being filled with the Holy Spirit = unbelief, because babies can neither believe nor disbelieve).

 

[AbbaLove]

To me that misrepresents *the Baptist position. The verse in question says:

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;

Are you aware that there are several (+20) Baptist affiliations with each holding to slightly or not-so-slightly differing theology. For example "Reform Baptists" don't believe that water baptism is necessary for one's SALVATION ... yet they refer to themselves as "Baptist".

A chaplain (reform " Baptist"- type of Calvinism) was leading an early morning Bible study at the local YMCA. One day he told the class that a believer asking "Jesus to come into his heart" is incorrect theology. He made this comment after i told him that my son invited Jesus into his heart when he was only 3 yrs old. My wife wasn't sure if he really understood what he was saying so asked him questions to see if he was really sincere. She was plesantly pleased that he understood.

We had a weekly CEF Club in our home some children from Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, COG familes. Two of the children were from a COG (Pentecostal) family. They would occasionally ask my wife about speaking in an unkknown tongue which being a Conservative Baptist was naturally upsetting to my Baptist wife. During one club invitation a girl (from a Lutheran family) prayed asking Jesus to come into her heart. My wife was excited to tell her mother, but this Lutheran mother didn't seem pleased.

Several years later my Baptist wife received the Gift of speaking in an unknown tongue and still after many years considers herself Pentecostal. She has a special love for Israel having visited Jerusalem at least 30 times.over 40 years. She has a calling as a missionary and once smugglled Bibles into China being protected by His Holy Spirit.

There are tongue speaking southern "Baptists" and of course classic Conservative Baptists. Classic Conservative Baptists forever have been taught that speaking in an unknown heavenly tongue is "demonic gibberish."

So what *"Baptist position" do you favor ... Classic Conservative? Afterall one's SALVATION theology seems to be as debatable now as ever depending on one's Christian affiliation.

Evidently one's Christian theology has as much or more influence as evident (Baptist position, RCC position) in the never-ending length of this SALVATION discussion thread. Maybe it's time for the OP to start a thread on the difference between the RCC, the ACC and CCR (Catholic Charasmitic Renewal)

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

For example "Reform Baptists" don't believe that water baptism is necessary for one's SALVATION ... yet they refer to themselves as "Baptist".

Yet the official position of "Reformed Baptists" is they don't believe Christian baptism is optional either. Go figure.

 

[AbbaLove]

Yet the official position of "Reformed Baptists" is they don't believe Christian baptism is optional either. Go figure.

The chaplain that taught the YMCA morning Bible Study was "reform" Baptist. There are more types of Baptists than in any other Christian denomination. Were you aware there are even 7-day Baptists (SDB) ...

Seventh Day Baptists - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Primitive Baptists – also known as Regular Baptists, Old School Baptists, Foot Washing Baptists or derisively, Hard Shell Baptists – are conservative Baptists adhering to a degree of Calvinist beliefs who coalesced out of the controversy among Baptists in the early 19th century over the appropriateness of mission boards, tract societies, and temperance societies. Primitive Baptists are a subset of the Calvinistic Baptist tradition. The adjective "primitive" in the name is used in the sense of "original". Whar's original to one Baptist is not necessarily original to another Baptist. Thus Christian religion is by no means unanimous in its theology.

Apparently a "Reform Baptist" is not the same as a "Reformed Baptist." As previously mentioned there are more than 20 Baptist affiliations, each with their own uniqueness, and yet all "Baptist's" even if a "Reform Baptist" doesn't believe water immersion baptism is necessary as a testimony of one's SALVATION.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The chaplain that taught the YMCA morning Bible Study was "reform" Baptist. There are more types of Baptists than in any other Christian denomination. Were you aware there are even 7-day Baptists (SDB) ...

Seventh Day Baptists - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Primitive Baptists – also known as Regular Baptists, Old School Baptists, Foot Washing Baptists or derisively, Hard Shell Baptists – are conservative Baptists adhering to a degree of Calvinist beliefs who coalesced out of the controversy among Baptists in the early 19th century over the appropriateness of mission boards, tract societies, and temperance societies. Primitive Baptists are a subset of the Calvinistic Baptist tradition. The adjective "primitive" in the name is used in the sense of "original". Whar's original to one Baptist is not necessarily original to another Baptist. Thus Christian religion is by no means unanimous in its theology.

Apparently a "Reform Baptist" is not the same as a "Reformed Baptist." As previously mentioned there are more than 20 Baptist affiliations, each with their own uniqueness, and yet all "Baptist's" even if a "Reform Baptist" doesn't believe water immersion baptism is necessary for one's SALVATION.

Baptists because they don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation they should make Christian baptism optional and allow a person to choose whether or not to be baptized....after all baptism is not necessary for salvation. I wonder when Baptist preachers will teach that Baptism should be avoided at all costs.

 

[David Lamb]

Are you aware that there are several (+20) Baptist affiliations with each holding to slightly or not-so-slightly differing theology. For example "Reform Baptists" don't believe that water baptism is necessary for one's SALVATION ... yet they refer to themselves as "Baptist".

A chaplain (reform " Baptist"- type of Calvinism) was leading an early morning Bible study at the local YMCA. One day he told the class that a believer asking "Jesus to come into his heart" is incorrect theology. He made this comment after i told him that my son invited Jesus into his heart when he was only 3 yrs old. My wife wasn't sure if he really understood what he was saying so asked him questions to see if he was really sincere. She was plesantly pleased that he understood.

We had a weekly CEF Club in our home some children from Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, COG familes. Two of the children were from a COG (Pentecostal) family. They would occasionally ask my wife about speaking in an unkknown tongue which being a Conservative Baptist was naturally upsetting to my Baptist wife. During one club invitation a girl (from a Lutheran family) prayed asking Jesus to come into her heart. My wife was excited to tell her mother, but this Lutheran mother didn't seem pleased.

Several years later my Baptist wife received the Gift of speaking in an unknown tongue and still after many years considers herself Pentecostal. She has a special love for Israel having visited Jerusalem at least 30 times.over 40 years. She has a calling as a missionary and once smugglled Bibles into China being protected by His Holy Spirit.

There are tongue speaking southern "Baptists" and of course classic Conservative Baptists. Classic Conservative Baptists forever have been taught that speaking in an unknown heavenly tongue is "demonic gibberish."

So what *"Baptist position" do you favor ... Classic Conservative? Afterall one's SALVATION theology seems to be as debatable now as ever depending on one's Christian affiliation.

Evidently one's Christian theology has as much or more influence as evident (Baptist position, RCC position) in the never-ending length of this SALVATION discussion thread. Maybe it's time for the OP to start a thread on the difference between the RCC, the ACC and CCR (Catholic Charasmitic Renewal)

I'm sorry, but to me you seem to have a mistaken idea about what baptists believe. Although, as you say, there are various kinds of baptists, like reformed baptists, general baptists, etc., one of the baptist distinctives is that they hold to baptism of believers, that is to people who are saved, so I would say it just isn't possible to be a baptist and at the same time to believe that baptism is essential for salvation. In fact it's the other way round; baptists believe that salvation is an essential prerequisite for baptism.

 

[David Lamb]

Yet the official position of "Reformed Baptists" is they don't believe Christian baptism is optional either. Go figure.

Baptists in general, not just reformed baptists, believe that salvation is needed before one is baptised - in other words, believers' baptism. So it wouldn't make sense for a baptist to say that baptism was essential in order to be saved. However, baptists believe that once a person has been saved, they should be baptized, So they don't believe that baptism is an optional extra for Christians.

 

[AbbaLove]

So it wouldn't make sense for a baptist to say that baptism was essential in order to be saved.

That may be the case with you, but some baptists still believe baptism is essential as a public (church) sacrament and one's testimony certifying their OSAS belief in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

However, baptists believe that once a person has been saved, they should be baptized, So they don't believe that baptism is an optional extra for Christians.

29 The jailer called for lights and ran to the dungeon and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.” 32 And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household. 33 Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized. 34 He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.​

Notice that everyone in his household "were immediately baptized" before "he(jailer) brought them (Paul and Barnabas) into his house. This suggests the baptism was by the Holy Spirit. This does not line up with traditional Baptist doctrinal belief, but by no means negates the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of a spiritual sign/gift.

Were you even aware that there are more kinds of Baptists than in any other denomination, e.g. Independent Baptist and Full Gospel Baptists just to name a couple among at least 20 baptist affiliations ... with each having their own unique theology. So when you say "Baptist position" there is no ONE Baptist position. For example John Piper (retired) considered his church (Bethelem Baptist) "full gospel". Yet as you may know "Baptists" can't even agree on what constitutes "full gospel" or how to define "full gospel."

Don't most mainline Protestant denominations believe that water baptism is a requirement for a public testimony of one's SALVATION (Baptist OSAS belief) as well as the sacrament of "baptismal regeneration" (John 3:5, Titus 35). They (reformed Calvinist Baptists) generally agree that water immersion baptism is a public testimony of one's SALVATION ... as it is with the sprinkling of baptismal holy water by a RC or EO priest and some Lutheran pastors.

Scripture teaches that true Christianity is to be brethren united together in fellowship, The two major Lutheran denomintions split over gay clergy severl years ago. The United Methodist church had a similar (significant) split earlier this year.

Thousands of congregations have left the United Methodist Church amid contentious debates over sexuality, including a dispute over whether to accept gay marriage and LGBTQ+ pastors. The rift marks the largest denominational schism in U.S. history.​

 

[David Lamb]

That may be the case with you, but some baptists still believe baptism is essential as a public (church) sacrament and one's testimony certifying their OSAS belief in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

29 The jailer called for lights and ran to the dungeon and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.” 32 And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household. 33 Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized. 34 He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.​

Notice that everyone in his household "were immediately baptized" before "he(jailer) brought them (Paul and Barnabas) into his house. This suggests the baptism was by the Holy Spirit. This does not line up with traditional Baptist doctrinal belief, but by no means negates the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of a spiritual sign/gift.

Were you even aware that there are more kinds of Baptists than in any other denomination, e.g. Independent Baptist and Full Gospel Baptists just to name a couple among at least 20 baptist affiliations ... with each having their own unique theology. So when you say "Baptist position" there is no ONE Baptist position. For example John Piper (retired) considered his church (Bethelem Baptist) "full gospel". Yet as you may know "Baptists" can't even agree on what constitutes "full gospel" or how to define "full gospel."

Don't most mainline Protestant denominations believe that water baptism is a requirement for a public testimony of one's SALVATION (Baptist OSAS belief) as well as the sacrament of "baptismal regeneration" (John 3:5, Titus 35). They (reformed Calvinist Baptists) generally agree that water immersion baptism is a public testimony of one's SALVATION ... as it is with the sprinkling of baptismal holy water by a RC or EO priest and some Lutheran pastors.

Scripture teaches that true Christianity is to be brethren united together in fellowship, The two major Lutheran denomintions split over gay clergy severl years ago. The United Methodist church had a similar (significant) split earlier this year.

Thousands of congregations have left the United Methodist Church amid contentious debates over sexuality, including a dispute over whether to accept gay marriage and LGBTQ+ pastors. The rift marks the largest denominational schism in U.S. history.​

But being a public testimony to the fact that one has come to be a Christian, baptism cannot be essential to salvation, because to be a Christian in the first place a person has to have been granted salvation.

Yes, I do now that there are many kinds of baptists, indeed, another baptist distinctive is the autonomy under Christ of each local church. Baptist churches may voluntarily join some grouping of churches (here in the UK we have the Baptist Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Grace Baptist Assembly, for example). However, I have never come across a baptist who says that baptism is essential for salvation.

 

[setst777]

But being a public testimony to the fact that one has come to be a Christian, baptism cannot be essential to salvation, because to be a Christian in the first place a person has to have been granted salvation.

Yes, I do now that there are many kinds of baptists, indeed, another baptist distinctive is the autonomy under Christ of each local church. Baptist churches may voluntarily join some grouping of churches (here in the UK we have the Baptist Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Grace Baptist Assembly, for example). However, I have never come across a baptist who says that baptism is essential for salvation.

Brother David, I appreciate your responses to all the arguments and questions as to the function of water Baptism, as Lord Jesus, the Book of Acts, and the Epistles (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17) plainly teach about. I could not have done better.

We cannot assume that, because a household was baptized, that this includes infant baptism; because the Gospel Commission that Lord Jesus commanded teaches us that only repentant believers (those who are made to be disciples of Lord Jesus) are to be baptized (Matthew 28:19-20). Peter taught the same thing (Acts 2:37-38), and so did Paul (Romans 6:1-6). Blessings to you.

 

[setst777]

What a joke! Being filled with the HS is conversion!

Where does Scripture say being filled with the HS is NOT conversion?

Are you stating being filled with the HS is unbelief? I guess there is one thing God cannot do....give the gift of faith before someone reaches the Age of Accountability. That is His limitation. This is some messed up theology.

I can't wait to share this on Sunday at church.
-----------

I am out of this conversation.....permanently.

IF this repentance is authentic, then such a change of mind is “conversion,” which is a firm decision to “renounce sin” and to “turn to God” to be saved from sin's condemnation and power over his life (Acts 26:15-20; Acts 3:19; Acts 20:20-21).

We are commanded to repent and be converted for our sins to be forgiven and blotted out

Acts 3:19 (KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted [turned], that your sins may be blotted out

Acts 20:20 [I have] taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 earnestly declaring to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God [conversion] and manifest their repentance by their deeds.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness [conversion].

By this repentance and faith we receive the Holy Spirit - not before.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

 

[David Lamb]

Brother David, I appreciate your responses to all the arguments and questions as to the function of water Baptism, as Lord Jesus, the Book of Acts, and the Epistles (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17) plainly teach about. I could not have done better.

We cannot assume that, because a household was baptized, that this includes infant baptism; because the Gospel Commission that Lord Jesus commanded teaches us that only repentant believers (those who are made to be disciples of Lord Jesus) are to be baptized (Matthew 28:19-20). Peter taught the same thing (Acts 2:37-38), and so did Paul (Romans 6:1-6). Blessings to you.

Thank you very much!

 

[AbbaLove]

But being a public testimony to the fact that one has come to be a Christian, baptism cannot be essential to salvation, because to be a Christian in the first place a person has to have been granted salvation.

Perhaps you have forgotten the importance of why some Christians first referred to themsleves as "Baptists". Your "Baptist" position is based on modern Baptist theology. IOW, the importance of baptism is no longer as important as it once was to one's heart-felt Salvation with rejoicing (Acts 8:26-40) ...

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.​

Another verse often used by Baptists in CEF clubs shortly after a child invites Jesus into his/her heart is Acts 16:29-34 ...

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; *then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household. (*This impies that he and his household were baptized by the Holy Spirit)​

Mark 16:16​

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

Colossians 2:12​

Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.​

Acts 22:16​

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’​

Matthew 28:19-20​

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”​

Acts 8:12​

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.​

Something else to consider is that the sprinkling of [baptismal] holy water by a Catholic (or Lutheran) priest on an infant was viewed as a "born again" experience based on John 3:5 and Titus 3:5. An elderly Catholic friend believes he was "born again" when baptized as an infant. On the other hand some Baptists don't believe water immersion baptism is necessry ... Go Figure.

Yet most every Christian believes their theology is correct ... until their Christian journey has them pondering a slightly different theology.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

On the other hand some Baptists don't believe water immersion baptism is necessry ... Go Figure.

Yes. Yes. We have two commands from Scripture in the NT Christians are to be baptized (Matthew 28:19 & Acts 2:38-29). Pride and rebellion is my belief here why some (but not all) Baptists and American Evangelicals repudiate baptism.

 

[David Lamb]

Perhaps you have forgotten the importance of why some Christians first referred to themsleves as "Baptists". Your "Baptist" position is based on modern Baptist theology. IOW, the importance of baptism is no longer as important as it once was to one's heart-felt Salvation with rejoicing (Acts 8:26-40) ...

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.​

Another verse often used by Baptists in CEF clubs shortly after a child invites Jesus into his/her heart is Acts 16:29-34 ...

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; *then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household. (*This impies that he and his household were baptized by the Holy Spirit)​

Mark 16:16​

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

Colossians 2:12​

Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.​

Acts 22:16​

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’​

Matthew 28:19-20​

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”​

Acts 8:12​

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.​

Something else to consider is that the sprinkling of [baptismal] holy water by a Catholic (or Lutheran) priest on an infant was viewed as a "born again" experience based on John 3:5 and Titus 3:5. An elderly Catholic friend believes he was "born again" when baptized as an infant. On the other hand some Baptists don't believe water immersion baptism is necessry ... Go Figure.

Yet most every Christian believes their theology is correct ... until their Christian journey has them pondering a slightly different theology.

Sorry but I think you have misunderstood my position and what I wrote. I only said that baptists do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation. That must be so, because baptists believe that baptism is only for people who have already been saved, in other words they have already received salvation. That doesn't mean that I or other baptists view baptism as unimportant; we see it as necessary that when a person has become a Christian, they should be baptized.

 

[AbbaLove]

That doesn't mean that I or other baptists view baptism as unimportant; we see it as necessary that when a person has become a Christian, they should be baptized.

As a Baptist how do you (as a baptist) know when you were baptized by the Holy Spirit? Do you ever hear a sermon or your Baptist Bible Study class discuss the importance of a Holy Spirit Baptism with respect to one's Sanctification and Salvation?

I ask this because when i was a Baptist the book of Acts was rarely discussed in a sermon or Bible study class ... which i came to assume is prevalent among Baptists (with the exception being a Full Gospel Baptist congregation).

Acts 19:2-3 ...​

Paul asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” “No,” they told him, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. “Then what baptism were you baptized with?” he asked them. “With John’s baptism,” they replied.​

​

Acts 19:4-6 - (Paul corrected their doctrine) …​

Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were *baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke Apparentlywith tongues and prophesied.

Apparently these "followers of the WAY" had to be *baptized correctly by Paul. Would you agree that most Baptists seldom, if ever, discuss these verses being under the impression that their baptism is "John's water baptism" moreso than a Holy Spirit baptism (with no evidence of speaking in an unknown tongue)? Or do you believe (like RCC) that it is both a water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism [born gain] that is part and parcel of one's SALVATION ... even though no evidence of praising the Lord in an unknown tongue as a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

part and parcel ... a basic and necessary part ...

Romans 6:22 - But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification—and the end is eternal life! (SALVATION)​

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Or do you believe (like RCC) that it is both a water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism [born gain] that is part and parcel of one's SALVATION ...

Amen. And I am not RCC.

 

[setst777]

As a Baptist how do you (as a baptist) know when you were baptized by the Holy Spirit? Do you ever hear a sermon or your Baptist Bible Study class discuss the importance of a Holy Spirit Baptism with respect to one's Sanctification and Salvation?

I ask this because when i was a Baptist the book of Acts was rarely discussed in a sermon or Bible study class ... which i came to assume is prevalent among Baptists (with the exception being a Full Gospel Baptist congregation).

Acts 19:2-3 ...​

Paul asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” “No,” they told him, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. “Then what baptism were you baptized with?” he asked them. “With John’s baptism,” they replied.​

​

Acts 19:4-6 - (Paul corrected their doctrine) …​

Apparently these "followers of the WAY" had to be *baptized correctly by Paul. Would you agree that most Baptists seldom, if ever, discuss these verses being under the impression that their baptism is "John's water baptism" moreso than a Holy Spirit baptism (with no evidence of speaking in an unknown tongue)? Or do you believe (like RCC) that it is both a water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism [born gain] that is part and parcel of one's SALVATION ... even though no evidence of praising the Lord in an unknown tongue as a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

part and parcel ... a basic and necessary part ...

Romans 6:22 - But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification—and the end is eternal life! (SALVATION)​

Do you think it's possible that Paul was addressing "disciples," but after closer examination, Paul realized that these "disciples" were not disciples of Lord Jesus, because:

1) These disciples never heard about receiving the Holy Spirit by faith (Acts 19:2)?
2) They were not baptized in the name of Lord Jesus, showing their discipleship in Him (Acts 19:3)?

The fact is that believers in Lord Jesus receive the promised Holy Spirit by faith, even before they are baptized.

Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

My understanding from the instruction of the Gospel is that only disciples of Lord Jesus are baptized (Matthew 28:19-20).

John the Baptist's disciples did not know about receiving the Spirit by faith, because they were not disciples of Lord Jesus and his words.

When a person repents toward God from sin to be a disciple of Lord Jesus, that is when the Spirit is received.

By an obedient faith, becoming Lord Jesus' disciples, a person is forgiven of all sins and receives the Holy Spirit, even before water baptism.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-25 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The Spirit in us is Life, and is received by faith, but only in the New Covenant of Lord Jesus.

John 7:38-39 (ESV) 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

The Spirit is received by faith.
The Life of the Spirit is the Spirit living in us and is by faith.

In the beginning of the ministry, signs were given by God to show that the Spirit was given, first to the Jews, then also to the Samaritans, and also to the Gentiles, and includes even eunuchs. By specific signs to each of these types of people, God was showing that he grants all people everywhere the gift of Salvation by repentance and faith in Lord Jesus, and all receive the promised Spirit by faith in him.

God used Peter to open the door of salvation to all these groups of people.

Acts 10:34-35 ... Peter began to speak, saying, “Truly I perceive that God does not show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life!”

 

[David Lamb]

As a Baptist how do you (as a baptist) know when you were baptized by the Holy Spirit? Do you ever hear a sermon or your Baptist Bible Study class discuss the importance of a Holy Spirit Baptism with respect to one's Sanctification and Salvation?

I ask this because when i was a Baptist the book of Acts was rarely discussed in a sermon or Bible study class ... which i came to assume is prevalent among Baptists (with the exception being a Full Gospel Baptist congregation).

Acts 19:2-3 ...​

Paul asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” “No,” they told him, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. “Then what baptism were you baptized with?” he asked them. “With John’s baptism,” they replied.​

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Acts 19:4-6 - (Paul corrected their doctrine) …​

Apparently these "followers of the WAY" had to be *baptized correctly by Paul. Would you agree that most Baptists seldom, if ever, discuss these verses being under the impression that their baptism is "John's water baptism" moreso than a Holy Spirit baptism (with no evidence of speaking in an unknown tongue)? Or do you believe (like RCC) that it is both a water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism [born gain] that is part and parcel of one's SALVATION ... even though no evidence of praising the Lord in an unknown tongue as a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

part and parcel ... a basic and necessary part ...

Romans 6:22 - But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification—and the end is eternal life! (SALVATION)​

I believe I received God's Holy Spirit when I was converted, as Ephesians 1:13 says:

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,” (Eph 1:13 NKJV)

How do I know that? Well, we are told that without the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, we cannot be Christians:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)

No, I don't "speak in tongues." As Paul writes:

“Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?” (1Co 12:30 NKJV)

I believe that the New Testament teaches both water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit (I use that second term without the Charismatic associations that it so often has).