Salvation

[Bluelion]

Your statement is not true! The doctrine of Salvation by Grace through Faith is not so much as hinted at in any of the 39 books of the Old Testament or in the first three gospels. Indeed, the subject of grace is not mentioned even once in the first three gospels. Furthermore, the word ‘grace’ is not used, except for part of the salutation, in 2 peter, 1, 2, or 3 John, or in Revelation

Moreover, regarding your citations of Scripture:

Romans 3:28 speaks of justification but not salvation!
John 3:16 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Romans 3:22 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Romans 4:3-5 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Romans 4:16 does speak of both faith and grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Romans 5:1 says absolutely nothing about grace and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Romans 9:33 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Romans 10:4 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Galatians 2:16 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Galatians 3:5-6 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Ephesians 1:13 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Ephesians 2:8 is the ONLY verse in the entire Bible that teaches Salvation by Grace through Faith!
Philippians 3:9 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Acts 16:31 says absolutely nothing about grace!

Why does the doctrine of Salvation by Grace through Faith appear only once in the Bible, and in Ephesians 2:8? It occurs in Ephesians 2:8 because Paul is addressing there Gentile believers who had not been circumcised! His point in chapter 2 of Ephesians is that these Gentile Christians are no longer strangers and sojourners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God—even though they had not been circumcised! How was this possible? It was possible by grace through faith—grace being the dynamic action of God by and through which He saves us from sin and its consequences through faith, and empowers us to serve Him. An integral part of that faith is our volitional obedience to Christ as we yield to the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.



Not true!

actually what your claiming the early church taught is not true at all, they never taught you can lose salvation. Peter most certainly would not have taught this as he denied Christ 3 times yet was still saved and never lost.

The largest Baptist school in the world teaches salvation comes from faith by grace alone. In fact it is a core believe of this forum.

You say a person can lose salvation then why does Jesus say this.

John 6

Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

See that Jesus says i will never reject them, and again He says He does the fathers will and the will of The Father is He not lose one of all He has given Him. Not to lose one, now if someone was saved and then lost again Jesus lost that person. Because salvation is kept not by man but by Jesus. Also you are saving Jesus died in vain for that person that is blasphemous. So how do you explain John ^ when Jesus says it so clearly? Is Jesus a lair? Are you saying Jesus does not do the will of The Father? Seems to me your on thin ice.

 

[BrokenWarrior]

Your statement is not true! The doctrine of Salvation by Grace through Faith is not so much as hinted at in any of the 39 books of the Old Testament or in the first three gospels. Indeed, the subject of grace is not mentioned even once in the first three gospels. Furthermore, the word ‘grace’ is not used, except for part of the salutation, in 2 peter, 1, 2, or 3 John, or in Revelation

Moreover, regarding your citations of Scripture:

Romans 3:28 speaks of justification but not salvation!
John 3:16 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Romans 3:22 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Romans 4:3-5 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Romans 4:16 does speak of both faith and grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Romans 5:1 says absolutely nothing about grace and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Romans 9:33 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Romans 10:4 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Galatians 2:16 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Galatians 3:5-6 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Ephesians 1:13 says absolutely nothing about grace!
Ephesians 2:8 is the ONLY verse in the entire Bible that teaches Salvation by Grace through Faith!
Philippians 3:9 says absolutely nothing about grace, and speaks of justification but not salvation!
Acts 16:31 says absolutely nothing about grace!

Why does the doctrine of Salvation by Grace through Faith appear only once in the Bible, and in Ephesians 2:8? It occurs in Ephesians 2:8 because Paul is addressing there Gentile believers who had not been circumcised! His point in chapter 2 of Ephesians is that these Gentile Christians are no longer strangers and sojourners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God—even though they had not been circumcised! How was this possible? It was possible by grace through faith—grace being the dynamic action of God by and through which He saves us from sin and its consequences through faith, and empowers us to serve Him. An integral part of that faith is our volitional obedience to Christ as we yield to the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.



Not true!

Playing with semantics is a dangerous game.

The difference between the meaning of those supplied verses and the correlation they have to Ephesians 2:8. Is like trying to point out the difference between the two phrases: "Leap off a ledge" and "Jump off a ledge". Both mean the same thing.

Again,the Truth that Salvation is by Grace through Faith(or however you want to word it.. by Believing,By having Faith,whatever) is taught exclusively as the only means of Salvation available to any and all.

Again, I state the fact that Scripture can not contridict Itself. You claiming that ANY of those passages are false,if only Ephesians 2:8, would imply that Scripture in its entirety is false. That simply can not be the case because of the reasons I have addressed in my previous post.

God bless!
-Your Brother In Christ

 

[PrincetonGuy]

actually what your claiming the early church taught is not true at all, they never taught you can lose salvation. Peter most certainly would not have taught this as he denied Christ 3 times yet was still saved and never lost.

If you had actually read the writing of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers you would know for an incontrovertible fact that they wrote extensively about Christians who were losing their salvation. Peter did not lose his salvation because he repented from his backsliding before it was too late. Millions of other Christians, however, have backslidden and died in that state—losing their salvation. None of the many doctrines that fall under the umbrella of eternal security were conceived before the 16th century, and some of them were not conceived until the 19th century!

The largest Baptist school in the world teaches salvation comes from faith by grace alone. In fact it is a core believe of this forum.

If you would read the posts that you are replying to, you would see that I am not denying that we are saved by grace through faith alone. However, that doctrine does not appear anywhere in the Bible. The closest statement to that effect is found in Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” This verse if offset by James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” These two verses are reconciled by the fact the Paul is writing here about “works of the Law,” and James is writing about what Paul calls “good works.”

Martin Luther, at Romans 3:28, introduced the adverb “only” into his translation of Romans (as translated into English) and argued that the context demanded it and that it was used in the theological tradition before him. Indeed it was. The distinguished Jesuit theologian Robert Francis Romulus Bellarmine (1542-1621) listed eight earlier authors who used the adverb. Joseph A. Fitzmyer, a contemporary Roman Catholic scholar, in his monumental commentary on the Greek text of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, listed two more, Theodoret and Thomas Aquinas. The doctrine of justification by faith alone was not a spurious doctrine introduced into the Church by Martin Luther—it has been taught throughout the history of the Church.

You say a person can lose salvation then why does Jesus say this.


John 6


Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”


See that Jesus says i will never reject them, and again He says He does the fathers will and the will of The Father is He not lose one of all He has given Him. Not to lose one, now if someone was saved and then lost again Jesus lost that person. Because salvation is kept not by man but by Jesus. Also you are saving Jesus died in vain for that person that is blasphemous. So how do you explain John ^ when Jesus says it so clearly? Is Jesus a lair? Are you saying Jesus does not do the will of The Father? Seems to me your on thin ice.

John 6:37. “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40. “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
42. They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43. Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.
44. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

What occasioned Jesus to say these words, and what did He mean by them? The answer to those questions is learned from the context in which they are found. For that, we need to backup to v. 22,

22. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.
23. There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
24. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
25. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
26. Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30. So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31. “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32. Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33. “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34. Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35. Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. “But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.”

We can see immediately from the above verses that the conversation between Jesus and this crowed was confrontational and that the crowd consisted of a group of selfish Jews who were more interested in getting free food to eat (v. 26) than they were in partaking of the Bread of Life. Jesus responded to their worldly, selfish attitude by saying,

27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus goes here right to the heart of the matter—they MUST “work” for the food which endures to eternal life (v. 27). The Jews respond by asking Him what that “work” is that they must perform (v. 28). He replies (v. 29) that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.” There is no imaginative play on words here, no change in the use of the genitive case, no exegetically sound way out of this one! Jesus is telling this crowd of Jews that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.”

In verse 30, the Jews ask Jesus, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work (the same Greek word) do You perform?” They tell Jesus that God gave their fathers manna in the wilderness, and Jesus replies that, “it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.” Notice that God gives the true bread, but that He gives it to those persons whom perform the work of God, that is, to those persons who believe in Him whom He has sent.”

In verse 37, Jesus says to these Jews, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” To whom does the word “all” in this verse apply? It applies to all those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent (v. 29), so that the Father can give them to Jesus. All of those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent, will come to Jesus. The Father gives the believers to Jesus, and the believers come to Jesus. In verse 39, Jesus says it is His Father’s will that none of those believers whom His Father gives to Him be lost by Him. The Greek verb translated here as ‘lost’ is in the active voice and the aorist tense indicating that the action spoken of is on the part of Jesus rather on the part of the believers, and that the action is punctiliar rather than continuous. Jesus does not lose apostates—apostates lose Jesus and the eternal life found only in Him.

Moreover, in John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost!

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”

Furthermore, as the linguist and Bible Scholar Adam Clarke wrote, “It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be.”

In John chapter 6 we find, therefore, Jesus expressly teaching these Jews that, in order to be saved and have eternal life, they must perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent. God’s work is to give Jesus to the sinner; the sinner’s work is to believe in Jesus whom the father has sent.

John 6:29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,


(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

 

[Bluelion]

If you had actually read the writing of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers you would know for an incontrovertible fact that they wrote extensively about Christians who were losing their salvation. Peter did not lose his salvation because he repented from his backsliding before it was too late. Millions of other Christians, however, have backslidden and died in that state—losing their salvation. None of the many doctrines that fall under the umbrella of eternal security were conceived before the 16th century, and some of them were not conceived until the 19th century!

If you would read the posts that you are replying to, you would see that I am not denying that we are saved by grace through faith alone. However, that doctrine does not appear anywhere in the Bible. The closest statement to that effect is found in Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” This verse if offset by James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” These two verses are reconciled by the fact the Paul is writing here about “works of the Law,” and James is writing about what Paul calls “good works.”

Martin Luther, at Romans 3:28, introduced the adverb “only” into his translation of Romans (as translated into English) and argued that the context demanded it and that it was used in the theological tradition before him. Indeed it was. The distinguished Jesuit theologian Robert Francis Romulus Bellarmine (1542-1621) listed eight earlier authors who used the adverb. Joseph A. Fitzmyer, a contemporary Roman Catholic scholar, in his monumental commentary on the Greek text of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, listed two more, Theodoret and Thomas Aquinas. The doctrine of justification by faith alone was not a spurious doctrine introduced into the Church by Martin Luther—it has been taught throughout the history of the Church.

John 6:37. “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40. “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
42. They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43. Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.
44. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

What occasioned Jesus to say these words, and what did He mean by them? The answer to those questions is learned from the context in which they are found. For that, we need to backup to v. 22,

22. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.
23. There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
24. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
25. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
26. Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30. So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31. “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32. Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33. “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34. Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35. Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. “But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.”

We can see immediately from the above verses that the conversation between Jesus and this crowed was confrontational and that the crowd consisted of a group of selfish Jews who were more interested in getting free food to eat (v. 26) than they were in partaking of the Bread of Life. Jesus responded to their worldly, selfish attitude by saying,

27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus goes here right to the heart of the matter—they MUST “work” for the food which endures to eternal life (v. 27). The Jews respond by asking Him what that “work” is that they must perform (v. 28). He replies (v. 29) that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.” There is no imaginative play on words here, no change in the use of the genitive case, no exegetically sound way out of this one! Jesus is telling this crowd of Jews that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.”

In verse 30, the Jews ask Jesus, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work (the same Greek word) do You perform?” They tell Jesus that God gave their fathers manna in the wilderness, and Jesus replies that, “it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.” Notice that God gives the true bread, but that He gives it to those persons whom perform the work of God, that is, to those persons who believe in Him whom He has sent.”

In verse 37, Jesus says to these Jews, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” To whom does the word “all” in this verse apply? It applies to all those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent (v. 29), so that the Father can give them to Jesus. All of those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent, will come to Jesus. The Father gives the believers to Jesus, and the believers come to Jesus. In verse 39, Jesus says it is His Father’s will that none of those believers whom His Father gives to Him be lost by Him. The Greek verb translated here as ‘lost’ is in the active voice and the aorist tense indicating that the action spoken of is on the part of Jesus rather on the part of the believers, and that the action is punctiliar rather than continuous. Jesus does not lose apostates—apostates lose Jesus and the eternal life found only in Him.

Moreover, in John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost!

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”

Furthermore, as the linguist and Bible Scholar Adam Clarke wrote, “It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be.”

In John chapter 6 we find, therefore, Jesus expressly teaching these Jews that, in order to be saved and have eternal life, they must perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent. God’s work is to give Jesus to the sinner; the sinner’s work is to believe in Jesus whom the father has sent.

John 6:29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,


(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

with Peter then you have the problem of Hebrew 6 which states those who taste of the fruit of Heaven and turn a way can never be brought back. So you see if salvation could be lost Peter would have lost it by denying Jesus.

Also John 17:12
12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

Jesus clearly states judas was never saved as he was head for destruction, note he was not headed to heaven as you would claim. Judas was the one Hebrews 6 speaks of was tasting the fruit of heaven but was not saved. he saw that Jesus was God and good and the way yet rejected Him any way knowing full well who He was. He was sampling the fruit of heaven but he did not part take of the fruit or take it in.

You can not turn away from God and come back and turn away and come back as The Bible says that is cursifying Christ over and over it again and it will not be done.

Salvation
can not be lost, how can something be lost you never had in the first place. Just how was a person saved on earth if they can lose it, they did not go to Heaven and were not free from their sinful nature as they still sined, did not have a new body just what were they saved from. But salvation is not complete for us we are promised it to be fulfilled we are born again, have a living soul and then we go to heaven it is complete. what you are suggesting is God kills His children, Because if they are saved they are raised from the dead, then they are killed a second time that is 3 deaths and again scripture. God's formula,1 we born dead our bodies die. 2 we live and eternal life. 2. we are born dead are bodies die, 2. we die again in hell. that is why its called the second death. your formula, 1.we are born dead raised to life, we die again, 2. die again, 3 bodies die, 4. souls dies in hell at judgement. or 1.we born dead, raised,, 2. our bodies die, 3. our soul dies in hell . it is either 3 or 4 deaths in your formula and that is against God's word, hell is clearly called the second death.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

with Peter then you have the problem of Hebrew 6 which states those who taste of the fruit of Heaven and turn a way can never be brought back. So you see if salvation could be lost Peter would have lost it by denying Jesus.

Hebrews 6:6. if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (RSV)

Hebrews 6:6. and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. (NRSV)

Hebrews 6:6 speaks of those persons who have fallen from grace; Peter did not do that!

Also John 17:12

12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.


Jesus clearly states judas was never saved as he was head for destruction, note he was not headed to heaven as you would claim. Judas was the one Hebrews 6 speaks of was tasting the fruit of heaven but was not saved. he saw that Jesus was God and good and the way yet rejected Him any way knowing full well who He was. He was sampling the fruit of heaven but he did not part take of the fruit or take it in.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. (RSV)

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them in your name that {Other ancient authorities read [protected in your name those whom]} you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, {Gk [except the son of destruction]} so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

You can not turn away from God and come back and turn away and come back as The Bible says that is cursifying Christ over and over it again and it will not be done.


Salvation

can not be lost, how can something be lost you never had in the first place. Just how was a person saved on earth if they can lose it, they did not go to Heaven and were not free from their sinful nature as they still sined, did not have a new body just what were they saved from. But salvation is not complete for us we are promised it to be fulfilled we are born again, have a living soul and then we go to heaven it is complete. what you are suggesting is God kills His children, Because if they are saved they are raised from the dead, then they are killed a second time that is 3 deaths and again scripture. God's formula,1 we born dead our bodies die. 2 we live and eternal life. 2. we are born dead are bodies die, 2. we die again in hell. that is why its called the second death. your formula, 1.we are born dead raised to life, we die again, 2. die again, 3 bodies die, 4. souls dies in hell at judgement. or 1.we born dead, raised,, 2. our bodies die, 3. our soul dies in hell . it is either 3 or 4 deaths in your formula and that is against God's word, hell is clearly called the second death.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.

Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.

 

[Job8]

Those who claim that anyone can *lose* his salvation really have no clue about what Scripture reveals. Salvation is not like your car keys which you can lose or misplace. Salvation is Christ Himself and CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF OF GLORY.

 

[Bluelion]

You have a problem which you have not address John 6 which states God does not lose his children.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Those who claim that anyone can *lose* his salvation really have no clue about what Scripture reveals. Salvation is not like your car keys which you can lose or misplace. Salvation is Christ Himself and CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF OF GLORY.

Conditional security rather than eternal security was the universal teaching of the Church for its first 1,600 years! If no one at all was able to understand, for 1600 years, what the Bible teaches about salvation, the Bible was written by a pack of functionally illiterate fools; and hence could not possibly be the inspired word of God! But that was not the case, for the Bible so very clearly teaches conditional security rather than eternal security that for the first 1,600 years of the Church everyone reading the Bible understood it to teach that Christians who fall from grace lose their salvation.

So, how did about a quarter of the Church later lose site of the truth in the Bible? The answer is as simple as it is horrible—the erroneous notion that God is absolutely sovereign was conceived. Salvation was consequently viewed as dependent solely upon the will of Gold with man having nothing at all to do with it. Consequently, it was taught, man can do nothing to reverse what God has done in saving a man. Hundreds of passages in the Bible were then reinterpreted to bring them into harmony with this new, novel, and horribly wrong teaching. Basic rules of Greek grammar were flushed down the toilet, and doctrinally important words were given a new meaning pulled out of thin air.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You have a problem which you have not address John 6 which states God does not lose his children.

John 6:39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (NRSV)

John 17:12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” (RSV)

John 17:12. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that {Other ancient authorities read [protected in your name those whom]} you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, {Gk [except the son of destruction]} so that the scripture might be fulfilled. (NRSV)

In John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost!

As the linguist and Bible Scholar Adam Clarke wrote, “It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be.”

 

[Job8]

Conditional security rather than eternal security was the universal teaching of the Church for its first 1,600 years!

When in doubt, the only course of action is to go back to the Word of God itself, and examine the truth about salvation. Since eternal life is a GIFT from God (Rom 6:23) that very simple truth will set you free. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance -- without a change of mind on God's part.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

When in doubt, the only course of action is to go back to the Word of God itself, and examine the truth about salvation. Since eternal life is a GIFT from God (Rom 6:23) that very simple truth will set you free. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance -- without a change of mind on God's part.

For more than 20 years I have been studying the Bible in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. I have in my personal library at home and at work over 800 volumes of Greek grammar, lexicography, and literary analysis of the Greek New Testament to help insure that I do not miss even the very slightest nuance in the meaning of the original text. The Greek New Testament expressly teaches, in numerous places, that the Christian who falls from grace loses his salvation; and there is not so much as one phrase or verse in the New Testament that teaches a different view. The doctrine of conditional security is so solidly based upon the Bible that no opposing doctrine is even hinted at in any known literature prior to the 16th century. The incontrovertible fact is that if the Bible does actually teach an opposing doctrine, the Bible was so poorly written that no one was able to understand in it even the doctrine of salvation until the 16gth century! Is it your position that the Bible was written by a pack of functionally illiterate fools? My position is that the Bible is the word of God and was written so very clearly that the doctrine of salvation was clearly understood until confusion arose during the early years of the Protestant Reformation.

Eternal life is a gift from God, but like any other gift the recipient is free to keep it, sell it, give it way, or trash it.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Hello Brothers and Sisters, I have recently been noticing a spike in threads both here and in the non-denominational sub-forums,about Salvation and what one must do to attain it.

The amount of false doctrine and bad advice has been sickening to say the least...

So I decided to make a master thread to let everyone who is interested know the path to Salvation.

The path to Salvation is so simple... so much so,that,it's simplicity is what makes it hard to comprehend at first.

This is what you must do:

Believe

That's it...

You must Believe that Jesus is God,that He died and rose again on the third day,that you can never attain Salvation by any other means(especially through your own works), and that by Believing in Him; you will be saved from the punishment (you deserve) of your sins.

But Believing is a work right?

Well, not really.

Only those who He has called is able to Believe.

He grants us the ability to Believe or not.

So you either Believe,or dont.

But He does give us free will. And you can choose to reject Him (if your that dumb) if you so wish to.

But Scripture says to Repent!

Your right,it does.

The Greek word for Repent being used is "Metanoia",which means to "Change ones mind".

So when Scripture says to "Repent and Believe",it's saying: "Change your mind about God and Believe!"

Two different sides to the same coin friends.

But Scripture says to be Baptized!

Yes,it most certainly does.

It says to be baptized as an act of obedience to Christ,NOT as a means unto Salvation.

But Scripture implies we can lose Salvation doesn't it?

Jesus Himself said:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." -Matthew 12:31

The only Sin that is unforgivable is the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which is to Curse/speak badly of The Holy Spirit.

But he who is already saved cannot say such a thing,because that would be unforgivable,which means we would be condemned,which means God lost one of His Sheep... absurd isn't it?

He who commits that then,was never saved to begin with. So if your truly saved,you've nothing to fear.

So you see,Christ is,as Scripture states it,"The Way,The Truth,and The Life". And again None shall get to the Father,except through Christ.

Scripture states,at times,passages which can be confusing. Such as:"If you Love me,you will obey my commandments".

This is not saying that you will be saved if you Obey Christ... it's saying that IF you really do love Christ,you'll obey His teachings. (Which are actually,for the most part,just to Love God most of all;and to Love and Forgive your Brothers unconditionally).

Because,you see, if you do Believe in Christ,and accept Him as Savior. You will see a change of actions both physically,mentally,and spiritually.

This is not to say you will be without sin though..

1 John makes that VERY clear.

But you see,as a Believer,you will hate sin,and not want to do it. And when you do sin,not IF,but WHEN you DO sin,you'll be sorry and confess it to God.

I think I've addressed most of the important points here,but if need be,I'll Edit or even post again.

If anybody has any questions/concerns/comments,feel free to speak. I'll try to answer each reply individually,with respect,and most importantly... Scripturaly..

I do ask though,that everyone keeps civil,and that we discuss any issues respectfully,and professionally. If anyone attempts to flame or troll I will ignore and report them.

As to those who do not respond,I only pray that I've helped you in some way with your spiritual trek with God Almighty.

With Love to my Brothers and Sisters,

-Your Brother In Christ

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

 

[Bluelion]

John 6:39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (NRSV)

John 17:12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” (RSV)

John 17:12. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that {Other ancient authorities read [protected in your name those whom]} you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, {Gk [except the son of destruction]} so that the scripture might be fulfilled. (NRSV)

In John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost!

As the linguist and Bible Scholar Adam Clarke wrote, “It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be.”

You can not get around it if a soul was His and goes to hell then Jesus lost that soul, Then Jesus does not do the will of the father and we know Jesus always does the will of the father, so your conclusions must be wrong not God it plainly states God will not lose a soul. Also in the same chapter Jesus says I will never reject them. You want to say well a person can walk away from God, sorry but God would still lose that person doesn't matter how.

 

[Bluelion]

For more than 20 years I have been studying the Bible in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. I have in my personal library at home and at work over 800 volumes of Greek grammar, lexicography, and literary analysis of the Greek New Testament to help insure that I do not miss even the very slightest nuance in the meaning of the original text. The Greek New Testament expressly teaches, in numerous places, that the Christian who falls from grace loses his salvation; and there is not so much as one phrase or verse in the New Testament that teaches a different view. The doctrine of conditional security is so solidly based upon the Bible that no opposing doctrine is even hinted at in any known literature prior to the 16th century. The incontrovertible fact is that if the Bible does actually teach an opposing doctrine, the Bible was so poorly written that no one was able to understand in it even the doctrine of salvation until the 16gth century! Is it your position that the Bible was written by a pack of functionally illiterate fools? My position is that the Bible is the word of God and was written so very clearly that the doctrine of salvation was clearly understood until confusion arose during the early years of the Protestant Reformation.

Eternal life is a gift from God, but like any other gift the recipient is free to keep it, sell it, give it way, or trash it.

and just how were they saved? Salvation is from death and destruction and Judgement if a person does not escape these they were never saved from anything were they. The fact you would not address how your formula has a person dying 3 times where the Bible has two deaths.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

For more than 20 years I have been studying the Bible in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. I have in my personal library at home and at work over 800 volumes of Greek grammar, lexicography, and literary analysis of the Greek New Testament to help insure that I do not miss even the very slightest nuance in the meaning of the original text. The Greek New Testament expressly teaches, in numerous places, that the Christian who falls from grace loses his salvation; and there is not so much as one phrase or verse in the New Testament that teaches a different view. The doctrine of conditional security is so solidly based upon the Bible that no opposing doctrine is even hinted at in any known literature prior to the 16th century. The incontrovertible fact is that if the Bible does actually teach an opposing doctrine, the Bible was so poorly written that no one was able to understand in it even the doctrine of salvation until the 16gth century! Is it your position that the Bible was written by a pack of functionally illiterate fools? My position is that the Bible is the word of God and was written so very clearly that the doctrine of salvation was clearly understood until confusion arose during the early years of the Protestant Reformation.

Eternal life is a gift from God, but like any other gift the recipient is free to keep it, sell it, give it way, or trash it.

What do you think the doctrine of salvation is?

 

[BrokenWarrior]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the deeds of the Law"- Romans 3:28

We are saved exclusively by Grace through Faith. Those who are saved though will see a change in actions through the new nature of The Holy Spirit.

God bless!
-Your Brother In Christ

 

[twin1954]

For more than 20 years I have been studying the Bible in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. I have in my personal library at home and at work over 800 volumes of Greek grammar, lexicography, and literary analysis of the Greek New Testament to help insure that I do not miss even the very slightest nuance in the meaning of the original text. The Greek New Testament expressly teaches, in numerous places, that the Christian who falls from grace loses his salvation; and there is not so much as one phrase or verse in the New Testament that teaches a different view. The doctrine of conditional security is so solidly based upon the Bible that no opposing doctrine is even hinted at in any known literature prior to the 16th century. The incontrovertible fact is that if the Bible does actually teach an opposing doctrine, the Bible was so poorly written that no one was able to understand in it even the doctrine of salvation until the 16gth century! Is it your position that the Bible was written by a pack of functionally illiterate fools? My position is that the Bible is the word of God and was written so very clearly that the doctrine of salvation was clearly understood until confusion arose during the early years of the Protestant Reformation.

Eternal life is a gift from God, but like any other gift the recipient is free to keep it, sell it, give it way, or trash it.

Careful PG you are showing your true colors.

All of your education and study has made you blind to the truth that salvation is all of God in Christ. You espouse a works salvation that is clearly against the Scriptures. The early church never taught that man saves himself and neither does the Scriptures. Your theology makes man his own savior and makes man to be in control of God.

BTW, I have a fairly extensive library that contains volume after volume that contradicts the so called scholars you claim to follow. You are not the only one here who has an extensive library or who has knowledge of the original languages.

Quit giving folks your credentials as though it makes you higher or better than the rest of us. It doesn't. The Apostles were simple folk who were given light by the Spirit.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the deeds of the Law"- Romans 3:28

We are saved exclusively by Grace through Faith. Those who are saved though will see a change in actions through the new nature of The Holy Spirit.

God bless!
-Your Brother In Christ

We are not brothers.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who actually obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
The law Paul references in 3:28 is the Sinai code, the law written on stones. That law Paul references in 2:13 has been added through the ascension of Jesus Christ and a change of the priesthood regarding the sin of his murder. If it is true that you are in union with God by his spirit you would not contest and attempt to over ride the truth Paul states in Rom. 2:13.

 

[twin1954]

We are not brothers.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who actually obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
The law Paul references in 3:28 is the Sinai code, the law written on stones. That law Paul references in 2:13 has been added through the ascension of Jesus Christ and a change of the priesthood regarding the sin of his murder. If it is true that you are in union with God by his spirit you would not contest and attempt to over ride the truth Paul states in Rom. 2:13.

Which of the laws have you actually obeyed? In reality I can easily show that you have obeyed none of them.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Which of the laws have you actually obeyed? In reality I can easily show that you have obeyed none of them.

That law Paul references in Rom. 2:13 and that is the only one that must be obeyed to be declared righteous by God. You however haven't and won't.