Salvation

[benedictaoo]

So, we are already saved yet that salvation can be taken away?

There are two things, redemption and salvation. Salvation is when you are in heaven, you passed from this world and are "saved" as in with the Lord.

The terminology is the biggest thing that puts a barrier between us and other faiths.

Redemption is what every baptized person has and it is objective, its given, its not earned what so ever... it is a gift given to us in exchange for nothing.

When we are baptized, we are given this gift of being redeemed from the sin of Adam, from being born to a race that cut itself off from God.

This is the "salvation" we have, its properly called redemption... we have been "saved" from hell... for being born to a race that lost grace and lost salvation. We are all born going our way down to hell if we are not saved from this fait all of man will suffer.

Baptism saves us from that, and once we are saved from that- we can never ever lose that salvation, or redemption.

But unless we leave the baptismal and get hit by a bus... we have to live this out now and through out the rest of our lives, whether we have 5 minutes and 90 years, we have to accept this gift that was given or we will not be saved in the end when we die.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Has the sin of presumption been taken out of the Catchism?

The sin of presumption is that a person continues to sin while believing he's saved anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Jim

 

[benedictaoo]

As long as we are alive we are never damned per say, because we are still alive. You have to be dead to be damned.

You have to die in order to go to hell... just like you have to die in order to go to heaven.

This is what we call salvation and its the only kind that truly matters. What we are now is redeemed, not 'saved', you can not be saved from hell until you die and God saves you from going there.

If we are not dead, technically, we are neither right now. What we are is redeemed.

Christians are not saved but redeemed.

You are "saved" only as a figure of speech... you are 'saved' meaning you have what it takes to be saved from the fires of hell when you die.

What we are right now is either in a state of sin or a state of grace.

We sin- we lose grace.

We repent- we get it back.

Understand that now since we have been redeemed, its no longer Adam's sin that can send us to hell- its our own now.

its simple as that.

If we die in God's grace, we will be saved.

If we die in sin- and here is the important part, even if we do die in sin, it will only be if at the very final moment of our lives we willfully reject the Holy Spirit calling us to accept God's mercy and forgiveness, we will go to hell. Not because God sends us there but becuase we choose to go there.

That is how "saved" (redeemed ppl) ppl can lose salvation- they simply do not want it and remain in sin unto death and reject the actual grace God gives them through the Holy Spirit calling them to repentance.

This is blaspheming the Holy Spirit that lives in you as a redeemed person, as a Christan. If you reject Him convicting you of your own sin (no more Adam's, that been removed for good) you have chosen hell, you have rejected salvation, you didn't lose it.

 

[mark46]

I am not sure I understand your point.

We all continue to sin, although we all do not continue to be in.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

The sin of presumption is that a person continues to sin while believing he's saved anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Jim

 

[Meepy]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8). Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

we are justified by God's grace when we respond by our free will to the invigorating of the Holy Spirit calling us. All good works and merits are actually graces from God. Grace precedes all good works. Good works cannot be done apart from God, as Christ says "apart from me you can do nothing". However by our free will we can reject the graces God has bestowed upon the world.

God predestines people to heaven, but he never predestines anyone to hell. If someone goes to heaven, it is because of God's grace and mercy through his Son's passion. If someone goes to hell it is because of his own doing by rejecting God's grace, and thus since he rejected mercy only justice is left for him.

Unlike what some protestants say, who say Catholicism is "works salvation" does not understand the issue of grace. Grace precedes ALL good works and the Holy Spirit precedes faith. Faith is only possible by the calling and invigorating of the human soul by the Holy Spirit. The good works we do are a result of that grace, and are not of ourselves.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Try to avoid sin, seek confession as often as you can [about once a month - immediately if the sin is serious] and hope and pray to receive a last confession....'Last Rites' or 'For the Sick'.

Even if one goes to purgatory - they will go to Heaven when their time is complete.
We have hope in Christ - but we have to remain faithful.

Mortal sins left unrepentant may keep us from Heaven...

 

[JimR-OCDS]

mark1

We all continue to sin, although we all do not continue to be in.

But we repent and place our salvation on God's mercy.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit

The second form I was referring to.

Jim

 

[mark46]

SANCTIFICATION ANF THEOSIS
The more Catholic equivalenet is "divinization" as taught by Aquinas. I think of all of the these as being more and more conformed to Christ and we are converted and molded each day of our lives.

ACTUAL UNION WITH GOD
Some beleive that this can happen this side of glory; some do not. I would call this union "glorification".

BOTTOM LINE
There is a process of becoming and a goal state of union;
=========================================
YOU ASK WHETHER MY VIEWS CHANGED?
Some history first. I was in the Baptist churh for 3 years, the RCC for 17 and now the Anglican Communion for 2. I might have joined the ANglicans earlier except that the Episcopal Church in NH was definitely not where God wanted me. When I retired to SC, the Spirit chose quickly after attending different churches.

How I look at things has changed much since I was mentored in the Baptist church. With regard to my understanding of salvation (and free will), my understanding have become deeper as I discern and learn and am deeper in my faith. However, I don't think my basic view has changed. There is only one orthodox faith. It is a matter of nuance and understanding of the true dogma.

I know that we do not all agree regarding salvation. For example, I believe that OSAS and double presdestination are misrepretations of the faith.

MY BOTTOM LINE
There is one true Church and faith. It has been defined by the Holy Spirit. It is clearly stated in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed and in the 7 councils of the unified Church. My view is not popular, by I do agree with many Anglicans of the last century that the true Church is divided. In many sense, there is indeed true Church in all the apostolic churches. So, the Church is divided EO, RCC, Anglican and apostolic Protestant (primarily Lutheran).

I am curious to know if you still see things as you did when you were a Baptist since you are now showing yourself as Anglican.

By the way, Sanctification is not Theosis, Glorification would be much closer to Theosis.

 

[WarriorAngel]

SANCTIFICATION ANF THEOSIS
The more Catholic equivalenet is "divinization" as taught by Aquinas. I think of all of the these as being more and more conformed to Christ and we are converted and molded each day of our lives.

ACTUAL UNION WITH GOD
Some beleive that this can happen this side of glory; some do not. I would call this union "glorification".

BOTTOM LINE
There is a process of becoming and a goal state of union;
=========================================
YOU ASK WHETHER MY VIEWS CHANGED?
Some history first. I was in the Baptist churh for 3 years, the RCC for 17 and now the Anglican Communion for 2. I might have joined the ANglicans earlier except that the Episcopal Church in NH was definitely not where God wanted me. When I retired to SC, the Spirit chose quickly after attending different churches.

How I look at things has changed much since I was mentored in the Baptist church. With regard to my understanding of salvation (and free will), my understanding have become deeper as I discern and learn and am deeper in my faith. However, I don't think my basic view has changed. There is only one orthodox faith. It is a matter of nuance and understanding of the true dogma.

I know that we do not all agree regarding salvation. For example, I believe that OSAS and double presdestination are misrepretations of the faith.

MY BOTTOM LINE
There is one true Church and faith. It has been defined by the Holy Spirit. It is clearly stated in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed and in the 7 councils of the unified Church. My view is not popular, by I do agree with many Anglicans of the last century that the true Church is divided. In many sense, there is indeed true Church in all the apostolic churches. So, the Church is divided EO, RCC, Anglican and apostolic Protestant (primarily Lutheran).

The foundation of the Church was put in the hands of Peter.

Not so popular amonst those not with his Holy See...but thats where the keys are.

 

[benedictaoo]

I am not sure I understand your point.

We all continue to sin, although we all do not continue to be in.

Huh? that makes absolutely no sense.

what sin we are no longer in is original sin. Personal sin- if we commit it, of course we are in it.

we are only not in it when we repent for being in it and aren't in it anymore.

We aren't in it until the next time we commit it, then we are in it and we will need to repent in order to get out of it.

The break down in understanding this is, people do not understand the difference between original sin and personal sin.

We are not in original sin anymore and can never be in that sin again.

But our own willful sin that we choose to commit- of course we are in sin if we commit sin.

The crux of Christianity is, since original sin as been dealt with and done away with, we have a way back when we find ourselves in sin.

If we never had the sin of Adam removed from us, then we would be in that sin still and we would not be able to have our personal sins removed as well.

This is what all those animal sacrifices were for. They were never permanent becuase the original sin was not dealt with.

No Animal sacrifice could atone for that sin becuase no one was personally guilty of it and no one could atone for it but Christ.

 

[JoabAnias]

MY BOTTOM LINE
There is one true Church and faith. It has been defined by the Holy Spirit. It is clearly stated in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed and in the 7 councils of the unified Church. My view is not popular, by I do agree with many Anglicans of the last century that the true Church is divided. In many sense, there is indeed true Church in all the apostolic churches. So, the Church is divided EO, RCC, Anglican and apostolic Protestant (primarily Lutheran).

Its interesting the order you place those Churches in "your" bottom line. I don't believe your bottom line is the bottom line of the Catholic Church.

 

[Meepy]

The foundation of the Church was put in the hands of Peter.

Not so popular amonst those not with his Holy See...but thats where the keys are.

Indeed. WarriorAngel speaks from the Holy Spirit! The bedrock of the unity of the Church is the chair of Peter. Break from this chair and break from christian unity.

The Roman Church holds the highest authority because it was conferred on Peter and he died in Rome. Constantinople is 2nd(Andrew), Alexandria 3rd(Mark), Antioch 4th(Peter), and Jerusalem 5th(James).

 

[BlackIris]

we are justified by God's grace when we respond by our free will to the invigorating of the Holy Spirit calling us. All good works and merits are actually graces from God. Grace precedes all good works. Good works cannot be done apart from God, as Christ says "apart from me you can do nothing". However by our free will we can reject the graces God has bestowed upon the world.

God predestines people to heaven, but he never predestines anyone to hell. If someone goes to heaven, it is because of God's grace and mercy through his Son's passion. If someone goes to hell it is because of his own doing by rejecting God's grace, and thus since he rejected mercy only justice is left for him.

Unlike what some protestants say, who say Catholicism is "works salvation" does not understand the issue of grace. Grace precedes ALL good works and the Holy Spirit precedes faith. Faith is only possible by the calling and invigorating of the human soul by the Holy Spirit. The good works we do are a result of that grace, and are not of ourselves.

....The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Scripture Catholic - SALVATION

so faith plus works are necessary for salvation?...but these works are inspired by the grace of God?

 

[benedictaoo]

so faith plus works are necessary for salvation?...but these works are inspired by the grace of God?

Its much more nuanced then that, a lot, lot more.

They are necessary but not strictly necessary for salvation.

Like I said, its not the works that gets you in, its refusing to do them that can keep you out.

 

[HarryCovert]

Its much more nuanced then that, a lot, lot more.

They are necessary but not strictly necessary for salvation.

Like I said, its not the works that gets you in, its refusing to do them that can keep you out.

Is that logical? I kind of see what your saying, but it really depends on how you define "works."

 

[BlackIris]

Its much more nuanced then that, a lot, lot more.

They are necessary but not strictly necessary for salvation.

Like I said, its not the works that gets you in, its refusing to do them that can keep you out.

I think I kind of get it now. I know it's difficult to describe it in a sentence or two.

Thanks!

 

[benedictaoo]

Is that logical? I kind of see what your saying, but it really depends on how you define "works."

Yes.

Was it Augustan (?) who said, God is merciful, He can save anyone with out good works but He's just, He can not condemn anyone with out any committed evil. (paraphrased).

There's a juxtaposition between the two.

We don't do the works becuase they are the fruit of salvation, or its evidence of our salvation or becuase we can't get into heaven with out them (although technically we can't) but becuase they transform us. They are what helps us become what Christ redeemed us to be. Holy as God is holy.

You can not enter heaven unclean. We have to transform the fallen nature into the perfect image of God's nature. Not being divine but being the closest to it with out ever being it.

Its the process of thosis, divinization. The works, which are practicing virtue, replacing your vices with virtue, is how we do this. Its being Christ- like. Godly.

 

[Kepha]

One cannot know if one is certainly going to Heaven, save God reveals to you in a special and personal private revelation that you are indeed, going to Heaven. Barring such, one cannot know with absolute certitude.

I believe you were thinking in the long run while others here IMO are thinking of assurance at the moment with confidence for the future.

 

[SolomonVII]

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[benedictaoo]

As Tim Gunn would say "Make it work..."